Judges 19-21 ?

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KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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#61

i don't see any ambiguity in God when He tells them yes, go up and besiege Gibeah, and to send Judah first.
that is, the picture you're painting of God really not wanting them to do this, but telling them to anyway (("if you're dead-set on it..")) ??
does God say, yes, go and sin and do a terrible thing, and do it this way? when He really means no, this is a sin and a terrible thing, don't do it?

...(skipping down a bit)...

sir, i believe that you are aghast at brother fighting against brother, so much so that you suppose God cannot have approved of this.


In honesty, I believe you misunderstand my meaning. Their fervor to rid the house of God of it's evil was actually very good. But they wanted to go about it by condemning their brother FIRST, without even looking at what evil they were harboring within themselves. And I think THAT to be a mistake. It'

I'm proposing that particular mistake to be the reason Israel LOST the first two battles. (usually obedience leads to victory, not personal destruction). Remember:

BENJAMIN won the first day, destroying 22,000 out of ISRAEL...with no recorded losses. Judges 20:21
And again the second day Benjamin destroys 18,000 out of Israel, also without any recorded losses. Judges 20:25.

The same way that Benjamin could have avoided their 25,100 casualties on Day 3 IF they had been willing to deal with their sin personally(as you agree they could have)... Instead of waiting for Isreal to do it for them...which Israel did....

So could Isreal have avoided THEIR OWN 40,000 casualities (of Days 1 & 2) if they would have dealt with THEIR OWN sins... Instead of waiting for GOD to do it for them...Which he did.

God simply applied to Isreal the same methodology they were intent to force on their brother.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
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#62
Kelby you gave me a start there when you said: this is how I currently see it.

I don't hear this from many people...I usually hear only fighting that ones particular current view while their mind is being renewed is the only correct view.

You keep showing true humility wherever I run into your posts. I know how it feels to have someone say that. You want to say the opposite and it embarrasses you to have someone say it because you see all you still lack in virtue. But you have had growth in this virtue!
Stunnedbygrace,

Well now you've gone and done it.. lol...giving me a positive reputation to live up to. :) And yes, my first inclination is to say "you don't know me very well." but instead I'll say....Thank you. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#63
Stunnedbygrace,

Well now you've gone and done it.. lol...giving me a positive reputation to live up to. :) And yes, my first inclination is to say "you don't know me very well." but instead I'll say....Thank you. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Who was the man who said something like...you don't realize what a burden a reputation is until you no longer have one to protect. :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,670
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#64
I think God purposefully sent Judah to suffer loss two days in a row as a sign of something else, not as some sort of punishment. There's no indication that they are doing anything other than the will of God. I also don't think they went up with the idea of destroying Benjamin, only the sons of Belial. The text indicates they were sorely troubled by Benjamin deciding to side with Gibeah.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#65
You continue to keep missing the point. God was absent from the hearts and minds of the Israelites.

11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:

12
And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.


13
And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. (Judges 2:11-13)


Otherwise the Book of Judges would have shown righteousness, godliness, harmony, and true worship. What we see there is the exact opposite, so was Satan running the show or God? Even the destruction of Benjamin was essentially contrary to the will of God for the 12 tribes.

you keep acting like the point is '
don't study Judges, it's all wicked people doing wicked things for no reason and without any significance?' why would you dissuade someone for looking for God in His own word?

The sons of Israel inquired of the LORD (for the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days, and Phinehas the son of Eleazar, Aaron’s son, stood before it to minister in those days)

(Judges 20:27-28)


yet there He is, and behold, He speaks!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#66
And the LORD struck Benjamin before Israel, so that the sons of Israel destroyed 25,100 men of Benjamin that day, all who draw the sword.
(Judges 20:35)

look who takes credit.

someone absent?

Then the men of Israel besides Benjamin were numbered, 400,000 men who draw the sword; all these were men of war.
(Judges 20:17)​

someone present in each of 400,000 men of war. and will He not come again?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#67
I think God purposefully sent Judah to suffer loss two days in a row as a sign of something else, not as some sort of punishment. There's no indication that they are doing anything other than the will of God. I also don't think they went up with the idea of destroying Benjamin, only the sons of Belial. The text indicates they were sorely troubled by Benjamin deciding to side with Gibeah.
Is there a rendering of the story or any mention of it anywhere else in the OT?

Do you have any thoughts on what would be the reason God would tell them to go twice and then let thousands of them die?

Its not like God to tell an army to go and then let them be slaughtered. And He did it twice.

For some reason the time He told men to march around a city two days then strike the third day comes to mind...
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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#69

you keep acting like the point is '
don't study Judges, it's all wicked people doing wicked things for no reason and without any significance?' why would you dissuade someone for looking for God in His own word?

The sons of Israel inquired of the LORD (for the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days, and Phinehas the son of Eleazar, Aaron’s son, stood before it to minister in those days)

(Judges 20:27-28)


yet there He is, and behold, He speaks!
you know me, but, duh! it occurred to me the other day the presence of Phinehas means this event must have happened early in the chronology of the book, do you think?

wouldn't he otherwise have been more than 300 years old, and still ministering as a priest?

i know, it's off piste... :eek:
just trying to piece it all together. like, what was the Ark doing there?

:confused: and let me know if you want me to stop asking dumb questions. lol
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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#70
I'm certain there's something we aren't seeing.
girl, i'm missing a LOT. ;)

my feeling is post is heading toward Judah (not literally, lol), and something about the third day, tho.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,670
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#71
girl, i'm missing a LOT. ;)

my feeling is post is heading toward Judah (not literally, lol), and something about the third day, tho.

hey i didn't make this thread because '
i got it all figured out and i'm gonna teach you schmos listen up' -- i'm trying to figure it out too!
it's an actual "
let's figure this out together" thread :)

my only pretense & assumption was that yes, there's definitely something to figure out - still kind of dumbfounding to me that someone would say '
nothing to see here, move along'

Judah, 3 days, yes, definitely i think so.
on the third day the sons of Belial were delivered into their hands. on the third day Satan was defeated.

He sent the prophets, they killed them. He sent His Son, they killed Him. He will come again and destroy sin forever
?
it seems obvious there's some connection here. you've got the tribe of Judah laying down its life willingly, being sent by the Father, and the sons of Satan being defeated on the third day, with a sign of smoke 'rising up to heaven' -- insignificant?? no. complicated prophecy & sign? i think so.

and it's very interesting to me that Judah is the one who offered to give himself for Benjamin in Egypt.


but i don't have things figured out.
thank you for looking at them with me :)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#72
Bible.org has a detailed article about this passage. If you type in their search bar: the dark days of Israels judges, you should find article 17. The author points out some interesting things.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,696
1,128
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#73

hey i didn't make this thread because '
i got it all figured out and i'm gonna teach you schmos listen up' -- i'm trying to figure it out too!
it's an actual "
let's figure this out together" thread :)

my only pretense & assumption was that yes, there's definitely something to figure out - still kind of dumbfounding to me that someone would say '
nothing to see here, move along'

Judah, 3 days, yes, definitely i think so.
on the third day the sons of Belial were delivered into their hands. on the third day Satan was defeated.

He sent the prophets, they killed them. He sent His Son, they killed Him. He will come again and destroy sin forever
?
it seems obvious there's some connection here. you've got the tribe of Judah laying down its life willingly, being sent by the Father, and the sons of Satan being defeated on the third day, with a sign of smoke 'rising up to heaven' -- insignificant?? no. complicated prophecy & sign? i think so.

and it's very interesting to me that Judah is the one who offered to give himself for Benjamin in Egypt.


but i don't have things figured out.
thank you for looking at them with me :)
may i say, as a schmoe, i'm a little disappointed. lol

i see that connection, and i hope you didn't think i was accusing you of being disingenuous?
because, never. ♥

thank you for keeping my thoughts pointed in the right direction -- to Him. :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,450
12,933
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#74

you keep acting like the point is '
don't study Judges, it's all wicked people doing wicked things for no reason and without any significance?' why would you dissuade someone for looking for God in His own word?

Why indeed? I have not said one word to dissuade anyone from studying Judges, and you know it (and so does everyone else). Since it is an integral part of Scripture, all Christians must study ALL SCRIPTURE.

The problem is that you are trying to force something into Judges which is not there. I quoted Scripture to show you that the Israelites forsook God, hence God was literally absent from their hearts, minds, and thoughts. But that is not good enough for you.

Christ is found in Judges as THE JUDGE of Israel who deals with their sins and idolatry by sending their enemies against them.

And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed. (Judges 2:14,15).

But that is not good enough for you.

 

Ezekiel8

Senior Member
Oct 26, 2017
403
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0
#75
The first two times they go against Benjamin, many of them are killed in battle. I wonder if these men were not...men of God. Because the only fighting men who survive are a handful who took refuge in a certain rock!
I have been thinking about how to answer this. I would say offhand indeed some were not men of God obviously given the context of how this lil war came about obviously some were blatantly rapists. However I also thought to myself, not all the men that perished perhaps even on both sides were sons of worthlessness or were not godly. In wars in the Bible, even the righteous die in the wars. It's notable this section of Judges is at the end of the whole book of Judges and of course segways into the Davidic period. Right in the next books many both righteous and wicked fall in battles and wars.

Saul the son of Kish mentioned in the OP and of course would be the descendant of one of the survivors of this (perhaps Kish or one of his fathers listed in 1 Samuel 9:1) was one of the survivors of this battle and who knows maybe Saul's mother, grandmother, etc could be one of the dancers of Shiloh. Another little interesting connection is in 2 Samuel 21:12 David takes the bones of Saul to be re-buried in the tomb of his fathers and it is revealed the men of Jabeshgilead (the town destroyed and the virgin women taken in Judges 21) had stolen his bones back from the Philistines that had slain and displayed him and his sons and men as trophies in Bethshan.


Of course back to the context of war Saul was an evil king and died in the battle of mount Gilboa, but then so did his son Jonathan whom was a righteous man and mighty warrior all around and David's childhood best friend whom David laments at the beginning of 2 Samuel. Even for the case that maybe one side were wicked and the other righteous is flawed, because later in David you got both the wicked and righteous being slain all over, Abner Son of Ner and Uriah the Hittite were righteous, but they were slain just the same as Joab and Absalom were slain.

Just because some people die in war or elsewise tragically does not mean they are wicked, and of course it also doesn't mean they were righteous either. A key scripture from the Gospels that comes to my mind on this overall topic of morality and war and such is this:

Luke 13:1-5

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


As for the point on the Rock of Rimmon and seeking refuge in the Rock of Jesus, yes that is a good point too and I had picked up on that. Of course the familiar symbol of seeking refuge in the Rock pointing to Jesus symbolically is linked in quite a few places in the Old Testament as prophecies towards the Messiah. Probably most famously, or at least in one of my favorites, in Psalm 18.
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#76
It's only the sons of Belial in Gibeah that are identified in the text as being wicked, and by implication the men of Benjamin that came to their defense.

Some want to say all of them are utterly wicked, because of an event 19 chapters previous, but the text itself here doesn't actually give that impression until we bring presumptions with us and overlay them onto it -- it seems to me.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#77
In re: the significance of this being the last part of Judges, particularly if it's not chronologically last, it's important that the scripture next tells us of Saul, the king that these people who rejected the kingship that existed - God Himself - is from Gibeah. He must have been descended from the remnants of Benjamin who hid in the rock. Saul cuts a yoke of oxen into pieces and sends it out to all the tribes in a striking parallel, when James Gilead is threatened. It's possible Saul was also descended from a woman taken from there?

And the Samuel later cuts Agag to pieces when Saul disobeys God by sparing him, another parallel.
 

Ezekiel8

Senior Member
Oct 26, 2017
403
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0
#78
It's only the sons of Belial in Gibeah that are identified in the text as being wicked, and by implication the men of Benjamin that came to their defense.

Some want to say all of them are utterly wicked, because of an event 19 chapters previous, but the text itself here doesn't actually give that impression until we bring presumptions with us and overlay them onto it -- it seems to me.
Well the sons of Belial from the earlier rape scene are indeed assumed to have perished in the course of the war. However not all the men of Benjamin were among those rapists. However at the same time I think what trips up many of the modern readers and for America and the Western cultures of race. This episode is highly racial and very interesting too in connection to race. On the whole a lot of the book of Judges is mostly about conflict with non-Israelite races with either some of the tribes or all of Israel. Then you have conflicts within the Israelite race from tribe to tribe. The rape of the Levite's concubine is so outrageous basically that there is a certain connection to it against all Benjamin (Judges 20:12). There's also notions of a closeness to race and ethnicity moreso in the ancient world than today, after all this is like pretty much at the beginning of all races, they're still fairly closely related as literal family. So it's not so unimaginable why the sons of Benjamin though it is knowing the story sorta foolish seeming refuse to hearken to Israel and to refuses to hand over their kin in Judges 20 when Israel marches up and demands the sons of Belial that they may put them to death. So Benjamin gathers up all his forces and so begins the war.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#79

Why indeed? I have not said one word to dissuade anyone from studying Judges, and you know it (and so does everyone else). Since it is an integral part of Scripture, all Christians must study ALL SCRIPTURE.

The problem is that you are trying to force something into Judges which is not there. I quoted Scripture to show you that the Israelites forsook God, hence God was literally absent from their hearts, minds, and thoughts. But that is not good enough for you.

Christ is found in Judges as THE JUDGE of Israel who deals with their sins and idolatry by sending their enemies against them.

And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed. (Judges 2:14,15).

But that is not good enough for you.

Guess there's no shadow of Christ in all of Exodus then, huh? Golden calf, you know. Stop looking, can't believe you're trying to stretch things like that.


:p
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#80
BTW Nehemiah, you cut the quote curiously short. This is the very next verse:

Judges 2:16 And the LORD raised up judges, which saved them out of the hand of those that spoiled them.

Now why leave that out?