Judges 19-21 ?

[posthuman]

Someone might accidentally take "deliverance from evil" and passing over iniquity as a precursor of the Messiah i reckon. Hmm better edit that.

 

[Ezekiel8]

In re: the significance of this being the last part of Judges, particularly if it's not chronologically last, it's important that the scripture next tells us of Saul, the king that these people who rejected the kingship that existed - God Himself - is from Gibeah. He must have been descended from the remnants of Benjamin who hid in the rock. Saul cuts a yoke of oxen into pieces and sends it out to all the tribes in a striking parallel, when James Gilead is threatened. It's possible Saul was also descended from a woman taken from there?

And the Samuel later cuts Agag to pieces when Saul disobeys God by sparing him, another parallel.

I do wonder where it fits in the chronology indeed, but it's not too unthinkable that it be later on in Phineas' life and that Phineas lived a long time. The inclusion of Phineas is interesting because then using Saul's genealogy one can take a more educated guess even which of Saul's ancestors it was. Though it's all really speculation just like as to Saul's ancestor of female origin. On Saul's matriarch it has to have been a woman that was either a dancer at Shiloh, or one of the virgins of Jabeshgilead, it's one of two choices really since the Benjamites at the end of Judges are faced nearly with extinction due to the oath not to give daughters to Benjamin and the results of that. But of course as by the tradition we're not really told all that much about the female characters, but you have enough to go on to deduce it down to one of the two. Just sort of one of those fun things about the Bible that it never really conclusively says it but it gives you enough to research on to get a rough idea.

It's just kind of fun to think about. I mean one of the names on this list is one of the survivors of Benjamin that sought the refuge at the rock of Rimmon we just read about.

1 Samuel 9:1

Now there was a man of Benjamin, whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath, the son of Aphiah, a Benjamite, a mighty man of power.

As for the prophet Samuel cutting Agag into pieces, this is again more racial in character. Rather than a parallel to Judges it is more of a fulfilment of the curse placed upon the race of Amalek for attacking Israel in the Wilderness.

Exodus 17:8-16

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But Moses hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For he said, Because the Lord hath sworn that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have been thinking about how to answer this. I would say offhand indeed some were not men of God obviously given the context of how this lil war came about obviously some were blatantly rapists. However I also thought to myself, not all the men that perished perhaps even on both sides were sons of worthlessness or were not godly. In wars in the Bible, even the righteous die in the wars. It's notable this section of Judges is at the end of the whole book of Judges and of course segways into the Davidic period. Right in the next books many both righteous and wicked fall in battles and wars.

Saul the son of Kish mentioned in the OP and of course would be the descendant of one of the survivors of this (perhaps Kish or one of his fathers listed in 1 Samuel 9:1) was one of the survivors of this battle and who knows maybe Saul's mother, grandmother, etc could be one of the dancers of Shiloh. Another little interesting connection is in 2 Samuel 21:12 David takes the bones of Saul to be re-buried in the tomb of his fathers and it is revealed the men of Jabeshgilead (the town destroyed and the virgin women taken in Judges 21) had stolen his bones back from the Philistines that had slain and displayed him and his sons and men as trophies in Bethshan.


Of course back to the context of war Saul was an evil king and died in the battle of mount Gilboa, but then so did his son Jonathan whom was a righteous man and mighty warrior all around and David's childhood best friend whom David laments at the beginning of 2 Samuel. Even for the case that maybe one side were wicked and the other righteous is flawed, because later in David you got both the wicked and righteous being slain all over, Abner Son of Ner and Uriah the Hittite were righteous, but they were slain just the same as Joab and Absalom were slain.

Just because some people die in war or elsewise tragically does not mean they are wicked, and of course it also doesn't mean they were righteous either. A key scripture from the Gospels that comes to my mind on this overall topic of morality and war and such is this:

Luke 13:1-5

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


As for the point on the Rock of Rimmon and seeking refuge in the Rock of Jesus, yes that is a good point too and I had picked up on that. Of course the familiar symbol of seeking refuge in the Rock pointing to Jesus symbolically is linked in quite a few places in the Old Testament as prophecies towards the Messiah. Probably most famously, or at least in one of my favorites, in Psalm 18.

Yes, you are right, some righteous men died in battle at times.

The bible.org article had some insights into the first two failures that I urge you to read. For instance, they did not inquire of God if they should go to battle. They inquired of Him only right before they were already set to go to battle and the inquiry wasn't should we go to battle - it was who should we send first?
And God did not promise them victory the first two times, He answered their question of Him.

So they made their own plans, really, and THEN inquired of Him. And the article has many other insightful observations as well.

 

[notmyown]

Why indeed? I have not said one word to dissuade anyone from studying Judges, and you know it (and so does everyone else). Since it is an integral part of Scripture, all Christians must study ALL SCRIPTURE.

The problem is that you are trying to force something into Judges which is not there. I quoted Scripture to show you that the Israelites forsook God, hence God was literally absent from their hearts, minds, and thoughts. But that is not good enough for you.

Christ is found in Judges as THE JUDGE of Israel who deals with their sins and idolatry by sending their enemies against them.

And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed. (Judges 2:14,15).

But that is not good enough for you.

​

God being absent from their thinking doesn't equal God actually being absent, though. right?

 

[notmyown]

Someone might accidentally take "deliverance from evil" and passing over iniquity as a precursor of the Messiah i reckon. Hmm better edit that.

i wish MarcR were here to help my feeble efforts. there's a word in Hebrew i'm about to mangle .

hesed... translated covenant loyalty, steadfast love, mercy...

there may have been no human king in Israel, but their God was there, manifesting His hesed in spite of their failures.

 

[Ezekiel8]

Yes, you are right, some righteous men died in battle at times.

The bible.org article had some insights into the first two failures that I urge you to read. For instance, they did not inquire of God if they should go to battle. They inquired of Him only right before they were already set to go to battle and the inquiry wasn't should we go to battle - it was who should we send first?
And God did not promise them victory the first two times, He answered their question of Him.

So they made their own plans, really, and THEN inquired of Him. And the article has many other insightful observations as well.

Well as it pertains to the first two skirmishes in the battle, the children of Israel did inquire of the Lord each time they went up (Judges 20:18 and 23). The Lord did tell them to go up to the battle, though true he did not promise victory until the third inquiry by Phinehas. I would say while not all of those slain were either wicked or righteous, I would think it to be a pretty big display of faith on Israel's part in God that they go up the third time because the Lord told them to go up. How much more faith did they have that they went up the third day after just seeing their army get annihilated in a big way the two days before?

 

[Enoch987]

Has anyone considered that the concubine is Christ sacrificed? After 2 days, Israel had lost 10% of it's soldiers. Staring with 400,000 down to 360,000. Joshua 7:3-5, 2 to 3000 chosen, about 36 are killed out of 3000. The last 36 days before Noah's 601st birthday end the 90 days with the raven and the dove. Educated guess, Jesus was about 36 when he died. In his 36th year of life, he was born 5 BC (no 0 AD). The 400 and 200 of Benjamin could be the 4000 BC after creation and 2000 AD years after Jesus' 36 years of life as a human.

 

[posthuman]

in re: chronology, i found this site:

Solution to the Chronology of the Book of Judges!

which is thick with information, but to surmise the author of the site worked out a timeline for Judges and his conclusion is that 19-21 precedes chapter 3, and overlaps Ruth a little bit.

from the site:

 

[posthuman]

in re: chronology, i found this site:

Solution to the Chronology of the Book of Judges!

which is thick with information, but to surmise the author of the site worked out a timeline for Judges and his conclusion is that 19-21 precedes chapter 3, and overlaps Ruth a little bit.

it's not uncommon in Hebrew writing to not follow chronological order when giving an account of events. we see that in the gospels, and in Revelation, too, for example. instead events may recounted in an order that links them together by purpose.

which suggests that Judges 19-21 is where it is, following Judges 17-18, for a particular purpose: these aren't side-by-side necessarily because they happened temporally in relation to each other, but because these events are related to each other in a different way, which suits the Author of the scriptures to give them to us in this order to express to us that purpose.
the purpose of the scriptures is the revelation of God to mankind: the reason Judges 19-21 follows Judges 17-18, and 14-16 before it, is to reveal God to us.

in Judges 17-18 we have another Levite, who 'sells' his priesthood. he makes merchandise of being a Levite, and is involved with 'household gods'

i'm curious about if, similar to how Christ shows us an evil shepherd, and then the Good one, we have a picture of an evil priest, and then one who does right. such things are shadows of the coming of 'The evil shepherd' and then the coming again of The Shepherd, The Good One: pictures of what will be the end of the age with the beast and the false prophet, and then the King above all. in those times, we have the beast and all all the armies of the earth coming together to make war against the Lamb -- which is ridiculously stupid: you're going to go fight God? but somehow they must be convinced that they can win. the tribe of Benjamin equivalently somehow believes that they can win, when they join the sons of Belial at Gibeah - but they are joining themselves to the sons of Satan, to fight the people of God, to defend the greatest evil that has arose since Israel left Egypt. they are entrenching themselves at the site of this evil, to make war against the people of God, who are united as one man, with the LORD's blessing, to destroy sin and to dedicate the whole place to God by the edge of the sword and by consuming the place and everything in it with fire.

 

[posthuman]

As for the prophet Samuel cutting Agag into pieces, this is again more racial in character. Rather than a parallel to Judges it is more of a fulfilment of the curse placed upon the race of Amalek for attacking Israel in the Wilderness.

i had placed Agag together with the oxen that Saul cut apart while filled with the Spirit, and with the woman in Judges 19, because of the cutting into pieces. i mean, you've got a man of God cutting a man into pieces in 1 Samuel 15, and you've got a Levite ((presuming he is a priest, why else is 'Levite' detail given?)) cutting apart this woman in Judges.

also cut into pieces are the animals used in the covenant promise the Lord makes with Abraham in Genesis 15. and Samson tears apart the lion in which corpse he profoundly later finds honey.

it's because of the cutting into pieces that these relate - to search out the significance of that action.

what you've brought us is also very interesting, important and related, but there may always be more than one edge on a node in the 'graph'

 

[posthuman]

speaking of "cut into pieces" . . . .

: :: musical interlude :: :

[video=youtube;XY2hRv1G2q0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY2hRv1G2q0[/video]

((don't click if you don't appreciate brutal thrash metal heh))

the lyrics of this song ((a cover of 1990 Vengeance Rising, by Christian metal group Pantokrator)), are actually inspired by the book of Judges, and this very topic:

His hands were ripped right from the limbs, t'was dagon
His head was broke off his torso, this false god
You'll find that great destruction comes from Gods hand
As it will across the earth, deniers beware
Cut into pieces
In the days, when there was no king in Israel
All did that which was right in their own eyes
Sex offence, and murder, they cared not for God
Said, strike them down for this, it is coming again


​

 

[Ezekiel8]

i had placed Agag together with the oxen that Saul cut apart while filled with the Spirit, and with the woman in Judges 19, because of the cutting into pieces. i mean, you've got a man of God cutting a man into pieces in 1 Samuel 15, and you've got a Levite ((presuming he is a priest, why else is 'Levite' detail given?)) cutting apart this woman in Judges.

also cut into pieces are the animals used in the covenant promise the Lord makes with Abraham in Genesis 15. and Samson tears apart the lion in which corpse he profoundly later finds honey.

it's because of the cutting into pieces that these relate - to search out the significance of that action.

what you've brought us is also very interesting, important and related, but there may always be more than one edge on a node in the 'graph'

Well I do not see a connection in the cutting to pieces of the concubine and to Agag really nor certain of the sacrifices. Cutting something into pieces or tearing it to pieces can mean a lot of things but mostly it is Division. How and why thing are being divided or cut or torn or breached in the Bible is best deduced by the surrounding context of the event. With Agag there is to be no mercy in killing him. Cutting him to pieces is dividing him literally down to the smallest nothingness and annihilating him without mercy echoing Samuel's response to him before he slaughters him and also a call back to the Torah portion about Amalek. Saul was supposed to have killed and utterly destroyed the Amalekites and his failure to do so and instead sparing their women and children and plundering them is really the turning point for him where the kingdom of Israel is torn away from him just as he tore Samuel's cloak.

In Judges here with the concubine the more significant thing is cutting her into 12 pieces, one for each tribe and distributing her body throughout it. It's a strong sign and testimony against all of Israel of the great folly they have done. This is why the Israelites are moved pretty easily to the Levite's side in the matter and go to demand Benjamin surrender the sons of worthlessness to put them to death so as to put away the blood guilt upon Israel as per the commands of God in the Torah. It works two ways though, the Benjamites bound together by blood refuse and choose instead to go to war rather than simply surrender the individual transgressors, and as a result obviously nearly get wiped out as an entire race which brings us to the closing dilemma, saving Benjamin, and the resolution to the dilemma in Judges 21.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well as it pertains to the first two skirmishes in the battle, the children of Israel did inquire of the Lord each time they went up (Judges 20:18 and 23). The Lord did tell them to go up to the battle, though true he did not promise victory until the third inquiry by Phinehas. I would say while not all of those slain were either wicked or righteous, I would think it to be a pretty big display of faith on Israel's part in God that they go up the third time because the Lord told them to go up. How much more faith did they have that they went up the third day after just seeing their army get annihilated in a big way the two days before?

You may have missed my point. Then again, you may have thought it silly and just dismissed it.

First, they made their plans for war. THEN they inquired God as to who should go first. They didn't ask if they should go to war. They had already decided they were going to war.

 

[Ezekiel8]

You may have missed my point. Then again, you may have thought it silly and just dismissed it.

First, they made their plans for war. THEN they inquired God as to who should go first. They didn't ask if they should go to war. They had already decided they were going to war.

No, I got your point, nor did I find it silly, but I just don't think it holds true. It's basically faulting Israel for the war and their losses though perhaps you don't intend that meaning. Basically if I accept that line of reasoning it would mean either Israel disobeyed the Lord and should have been destroyed or else it's like saying God lied to them.

I think it's rather plain that Israel did inquire of the Lord and the Lord straight up told them to go up each time, which is what they did, they did obey the Lord and went up and while they suffered hardship at the first they did ultimately prevail just like the Lord said they would. Israel is not faulted for the war, but rather Benjamin is the belligerent of the war. Benjamin refused to surrender the sons of Belial to be put to death which is the prescription of the Torah for such a hardcore act of evil as happened in Judges 19, and so Benjamin assembled their army and resisted and fought, essentially declaring war. Israel may have lost the first two days, but they do ultimately win in the end. I think it a show of faith they continue to obey God after the first two days of tragic defeat. I feel like there's a theme here of faith in the Lord and his ultimate prevailing will. Even this is echoed into the aftermath in ironically going from the will to utterly smite Benjamin to trying to save him from extinction lest there be a breach upon Israel.