Just another OSAS thread

RickyZ · Mar 17, 2015

Let's look at the OS part of OSAS (forget the AS part for the moment).

What exactly constitutes works? Are they not acts you perform out of your own sovereign will?

Is not accepting Christ an act you perform out of your own sovereign will?

So, staying saved aside for the moment, is not getting saved in the first place, a work?

Jesus says you have to believe in Him before you can receive His saving grace. So is not getting saved based upon a single act of works?

just-me · Mar 17, 2015

RickyZ said:

And then we are exhorted to progress forward into maturity. This demands our response in relationship to Him first loving us. We are to have the mind of Christ and be willing to be conformed into His image. Responding to His calling is then His works in us not our works to somehow achieve His acceptance.

Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]
2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

notuptome · Mar 17, 2015

RickyZ said:

Who did the work to obtain our salvation? Last time I checked it was a gift. No work required to receive a gift.

Scripture teaches we are saved by grace. Grace excludes works on our part. The faith required to receive salvation comes from Gods word and the Holy Spirit. Again no works on our part.

Receiving salvation by grace does create a new creature created unto good works. The works flow out of salvation not into salvation. It is God that saves or we are not saved.

To say that we have any part in salvation is to say that the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient to save and to secure for all of eternity. If we can lose our salvation then the work of Christ was not finished and we make Christ to be as a liar.

There are many who have a counterfeit salvation. They say unto the Lord in the judgment that they have done much and done it in His name but the Lord tell them that He knows them not and to depart from Him.

A genuine salvation is a salvation that produces works in the believer. The believer cannot produce a genuine salvation by his works and only robs Christ of His glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Blain · Mar 17, 2015

lol I saw the title of the thread and thought to myself let the war begin. The problem with the whole osas debate is that both sides have plenty of scripture to back up their view. Personally I don't believe in osas because I know from personal experience how easy it is for the things of this world to become our focus and slowly yet surely become more involved with the world then God. it doesn't seem like a big deal at first you think I'm just having some fun no big deal but you begin to do it more and more and more until you reach luke warmness, you believe in God you pray sometimes you go to church but you have lost the passion the fire has sizzled.

This is why I am extremely careful not to keep my focus off God very long. it isn't hard to become lukewarm but the question is are you still saved in lukewarmness? the way I see it we either are on fire or we are not anything in between is pointless

kennethcadwell · Mar 17, 2015

Did the Lord Jesus say this and then promise eternal life to those who continue to follow His teachings;

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Now lets look at the book of Hebrews that puts both of these in context in one scripture;

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

RickyZ · Mar 17, 2015

Have you never rejected a gift? The gift of salvation is offered to every single human being on this planet, but there are oodles of them who never accept or who outright reject it. There is no question that the gift and power of salvation is in God's hands. But it is up to our hands to either take hold of it or reject it.

So, again, since we have the power and place to reject God's free gift of salvation, does that not put the power of salvation into our hands?

Again, we are just talking the initial reception here.

RickyZ · Mar 17, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Did the Lord Jesus say this and then promise eternal life to those who continue to follow His teachings;

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Now lets look at the book of Hebrews that puts both of these in context in one scripture;

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

Let's not get into continuing (AS) just yet. Let's establish the initial "once saved" (or OS) part of it first.

Jasher · Mar 17, 2015

God in all the Bible does not violate people's free will. So if this is true then you can also choose to abandon your salvation. Demos did this but then the OSAS crowd says "He wasn't really saved to start with." The simple fact is that Jesus alone procured salvation for every member of the human race - if they want it that is. But scripture also indicates that this faith in Jesus also produces good works. So this is the principle in effect. The reverse of this is NOT VALID that Good works produces salvation. Good works is a by product of Gods salvation brought in by the New Covenant which was established by the blood of Jesus.

Revelation 3: Red Letter edition

Revelation 3:1-6 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

Good deeds are the fruit of a godly life in Christ Jesus and according to this passage are expected. (Your reasonable service)

How can Jesus erase someone's name from the book of life if it is not already there?

OSAS was a doctrine birthed during the time of the corruption of the Church in the middle ages. This was because you could become excommunicated for not slavishly obeying the religious leaders of that day. Thus the doctrine of OSAS.

kennethcadwell · Mar 17, 2015

RickyZ said:

Well to me in my studying Matthew 10:22 does handle the OS part, as He says we have to endure to the end first before being saved. And Matthew 7:21 says those who do the will of God get eternal life, so both scriptures by the Lord show a doing in our life before a receiving.

tourist · Mar 17, 2015

RickyZ said:

I believe that the act of salvation is based on the finished work of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. I understand what you have written and agree with it.

MarcR · Mar 17, 2015

RickyZ said:

IMO the only work was done by Jesus on the cross (and by living a sinless life).

You believe because you were given faith to believe (Eph 2:8)

You believe because the Holy Spirit convicted you of sin and persuaded you to believe (His work not yours)

NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST (Eph 2:9) really means exactly what it says.

If you resist the Holy Spirit and decide NOT to believe you can take blame for your own work; but if the Holy Spirit persuades you to believe, you can't take credit for what God has done.

crossnote · Mar 17, 2015

Geesh, it looks like when we get to heaven we'll hear...

"I am here because I CHOSE to be saved".
"I am here because I was WISE to pick Jesus to be saved".
"I am here because I KEPT MYSELF unto salvation".
"I am here because I ENDURED to the end"...etc.etc.

Sounds like a house of pride and boasting to me.

psychomom · Mar 17, 2015

crossnote said:

i feel like somebody once said, "what do you have that you did not receive?"

dcontroversal · Mar 17, 2015

MarcR said:

AMEN and Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to him mercy has he saved us....Titus 3:5

and

For he that is entered into HIS rest, he has also ceased from his own works, as God did from his.......Hebrews 4:10

Angela53510 · Mar 17, 2015

RickyZ said:

"your own sovereign will?"

This is a heinous combination of words. It demonstrates that you do not know the definition of the word "sovereign" nor how to use the word. We do NOT have a sovereign will. In fact, the whole concept of free will is a man-made doctrine, to justify independence from God, and control over ones life, instead of acknowledging God as soverign.

Here is a good link to what the word "sovereign" means. May it correct your seriously bad doctrine.

"If you were to look up the word “sovereign” in the dictionary, you would find words and phrases like “superior,” “greatest,” “supreme in power and authority,” “ruler,” and “independent of all others” in its definition. But the way I like to explain God’s sovereignty best is simply to say, “God is in control.” There is absolutely nothing that happens in the universe that is outside of God’s influence and authority. As King of kings and Lord of lords, God has no limitations. Consider just a few of the claims the Bible makes about God:
God is above all things and before all things. He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. He is immortal, and He is present everywhere so that everyone can know Him (Revelation 21:6).
God created all things and holds all things together, both in heaven and on earth, both visible and invisible (Colossians 1:16).
God knows all things past, present, and future. There is no limit to His knowledge, for God knows everything completely before it even happens (Romans 11:33).
God can do all things and accomplish all things. Nothing is too difficult for Him, and He orchestrates and determines everything that is going to happen in your life, in my life, in America, and throughout the world. Whatever He wants to do in the universe, He does, for nothing is impossible with Him (Jeremiah 32:17).
God is in control of all things and rules over all things. He has power and authority over nature, earthly kings, history, angels, and demons. Even Satan himself has to ask God’s permission before he can act (Psalm 103:19).
That’s what being sovereign means. It means being the ultimate source of all power, authority, and everything that exists. Only God can make those claims; therefore, it’s God’s sovereignty that makes Him superior to all other gods and makes Him, and Him alone, worthy of worship.Just as peasants always bowed before their king for fear of offending the one who had the authority to take their life, God’s sovereignty compels us to bow before Him. But unlike corrupt earthly kings who abuse their authority to terrorize their subjects, God rules in love. He loves you and wants the best for you."

What does the phrase “God is sovereign” really mean? by Chip Ingram – Christian Theology

psychomom · Mar 17, 2015

Angela53510 said:

sorry to <snip> your post, Angela.

it's all so very comforting. ♥

RickyZ · Mar 17, 2015

Jasher said:

That is an important distinction, that salvation produces good works, but good works do not produce salvation. I think that is a point the pro-OS crowd misses. If you are truly saved you will produce good works. Therefore, good works are in fact evidence of your salvation. Without the evidence of good works, your salvation is indeed questionable. I think that is what the scriptures that tie good works to salvation is getting at... not that they produce salvation, but that without them your salvation is unproductive and questionable.

Works (except possibly one) do not save you, but without them your salvation is not real.

RickyZ · Mar 17, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

That is an interesting take on it, that you are not truly saved until the very end, when the evidence of your works (or lack thereof) dictates whether your salvation is honored. I think there is some truth in that, again in that works are the evidence of salvation, but it leans heavily towards the works produces salvation theory which I think for the most part is not true. But it does kind of address the "they were of us but they weren't" scriptures.

RickyZ · Mar 17, 2015

tourist said:

Thank you, but I would tweak that a little bit in that it wasn't Christ's death but His resurrection that finished the work and made salvation possible. Not that His death didn't have meaning, but it is both parts in unison that draws the big picture.

And I think this well illustrates the problem between the OS'ers and the non. You can't look at just one part of the eqation. You have to take ALL the elements together to find the truth. And a whole lotta people can't seem to do that, they polarize to one side or the other.

(and I can see this starting a whole new argument... some will cling to His death, some will cling to His resurrection, when the truth actually lies in clinging to both.)

RickyZ · Mar 17, 2015

MarcR said:

And that too, on the surface, has merit. But it still comes down to the individual. You still have the free will to either bow to the Spirit's leading or reject it. It comes back to that one and only thing a person can do or not do - to say (or not say) Lord I accept!

Just another OSAS thread

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