Just another OSAS thread

[RickyZ]

I did not "accept" God's offer of grace. That term is nowhere found in the Bible, but rather in the playbooks of 20th century evangelists.

Instead, God revealed himself to me to be the sovereign and saving God, and I believed!

Belief is not a work. It is a response. I was not under my own power when I met Jesus Christ. I was totally in his hands from start to finish! (Meaning now!)

Before I was saved, I was not under my own power either! I was ruled and controlled by the Prince of Darkness.

How great is God to call me, justify me, sanctify me and one day glorify me when he returns!

Through no human will, but rather through the omnipresent, omniscent, and omnipotent Lord of the Universe's sovereign freedom and will!

If it were not for God, I would be still on my downward path. I had no strength, will or power to change. But the Holy Spirit was placed in my heart by a loving Saviour. That is the true gospel.

We cannot save ourselves by an act of our wills. Rather, the act of Christ's death on the cross, having lived a perfect life of obedience to the Father, and the power of God revealed in the resurrection, saves us.

But that implies that you received Christ without free will. If you are under someone's power then you are not under your free will. God's grace was forced upon you? I get what you are saying and I'm not entirely opposed, but God didn't force His grace upon me. He showed it to me and then asked me what I was going to do about it. But it was always up to me to say "I'm in". I'm curious what the ratio is among believers... what percentage was forced and what percentage accepted?

Absolutely terrific post. When you get the OS part right the AS part will fall right in line.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That, my brother, is what this little journey is all about

 

[dcontroversal]

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV) Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! [SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.


***

Well, that does seem to say that belief is separate from works. And it includes the admonition we've already talked about that a work that follows belief (in this case circumcision) is evidence of the belief.

Excellent point and reference.

Others?

Well the bible seems clear....Abraham believed God and it was put to his account for righteousness....David is added in under this account in Romans and describes the blessedness of a man that has the righteousness of God imputed (put to his account) unto him without works....Romans 4

Abraham simply believed God about a land and a city...he took God at his word, exercised faith and that faith was put to his account for righteousness in the eyes of God.....the result of that faith which allows us a men to see his faith (JAMES) was that he left his home and headed out looking for a city whose builder and maker is God.....

 

[RickyZ]

Well the bible seems clear....Abraham believed God and it was put to his account for righteousness....David is added in under this account in Romans and describes the blessedness of a man that has the righteousness of God imputed (put to his account) unto him without works....Romans 4

Abraham simply believed God about a land and a city...he took God at his word, exercised faith and that faith was put to his account for righteousness in the eyes of God.....the result of that faith which allows us a men to see his faith (JAMES) was that he left his home and headed out looking for a city whose builder and maker is God.....

Abraham believed in more than a land and a city... he believed in the redeemer God promised Adam as he was exiled out of the garden. And Abraham lived in a world that had turned it's back on God. God's deal with Abraham was basically, "fine, Abraham, since you're the only one who wants it, you're the only one who gets it". That's why Abraham's descendants had to finally say "we don't want it", it was the only way for the redeemer to be made "public" (if you'll excuse the term) without God going back on His promise to them.

Curious thing tho... here it is, that the Jews were in God's graces, but by their own action took themselves out of it.

Or would you say that they were never really in?

 

[dcontroversal]

Abraham believed in more than a land and a city... he believed in the redeemer God promised Adam as he was exiled out of the garden. And Abraham lived in a world that had turned it's back on God. God's deal with Abraham was basically, "fine, Abraham, since you're the only one who wants it, you're the only one who gets it". That's why Abraham's descendants had to finally say "we don't want it", it was the only way for the redeemer to be made "public" (if you'll excuse the term) without God going back on His promise to them.

Curious thing tho... here it is, that the Jews were in God's graces, but by their own action took themselves out of it.

Or would you say that they were never really in?

The Jews were under the law and not under Grace....Under to O.T. law it is clear that 100% obedience was required......of the which it pointed to Christ as no man could fully keep it.....

Hebrews 11:8-10 The first thing on the list attributed to Abraham in the great chapter of faith is the reference I gave about believing God about a land and a city....

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Abraham believed in more than a land and a city... he believed in the redeemer God promised Adam as he was exiled out of the garden. And Abraham lived in a world that had turned it's back on God. God's deal with Abraham was basically, "fine, Abraham, since you're the only one who wants it, you're the only one who gets it". That's why Abraham's descendants had to finally say "we don't want it", it was the only way for the redeemer to be made "public" (if you'll excuse the term) without God going back on His promise to them.

Curious thing tho... here it is, that the Jews were in God's graces, but by their own action took themselves out of it.

Or would you say that they were never really in?

The New covenant was made for the Jews, but as you stated they rejected it. That does not mean that n Jew cannot still be saved by grace through their faith. This rejection was known by Moses[Deut 32.21][Romans 10.19]

Gentiles were grafted into the new covenant and never replaced Israel in the new covenant.

 

[ChristInUs]

The question is where is your faith. In what do you place your faith in?

 

[Angela53510]

But that implies that you received Christ without free will. If you are under someone's power then you are not under your free will. God's grace was forced upon you? I get what you are saying and I'm not entirely opposed, but God didn't force His grace upon me. He showed it to me and then asked me what I was going to do about it. But it was always up to me to say "I'm in". I'm curious what the ratio is among believers... what percentage was forced and what percentage accepted?

That, my brother, is what this little journey is all about

I'm afraid but you have been subject to some terrible teaching in the church you attend!

Show me "free will" in the Bible! Another ridiculous man-made concept, which totally undermines the sovereignty of God.

So if it was "up to you" to say "I'm in" then you must have saved yourself by your own works, right?

So how it that going for you? Feeling discouraged?

Try becoming a new creature in Christ. That is not something you decide to just up and do, based on your whims.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:;17-18

Please note what it says "All this is from God," Salvation is from GOD! Not of yourself.

Here's my suggestion, Ricky. Put aside all these misconceptions and get out the New Testament and read what God says. Not what you hear in your church, since you have been badly taught! But the Bible, plan and simple!

It's there! I was in Arminian churches, and reading the Bible convinced me something was terribly wrong with the theology, because it did not line up with the Bible.

Praying God will show you the truth, that God is sovereign and he can save whosoever he wants.

 

[RickyZ]

Did Jesus ever force anyone to go with Him? Or did He present His case and say come if you will. I don't recall anyone being dragged along against their will. Jesus called to all of them, but not all of them made the right choice.

To say that we don't have a choice is to say the Holy Spirit woos some more than others, otherwise how do you explain some but not others responding? Doesn't God love all men equally? And give all men equal access? Or does He play favorites? He must, if He woos one man to surrender and lets another man go. I mean, either the man chooses to reject or God lets him go. I don't see another choice.

Just to answer, I've been to just about every church there is, and studied the Bible both formally and, a hundredfold, personally. I've been, let's say, very motivated by life to search out the scriptures in a personal manner. I'll admit I come from a different angle than most. But that's because I've experienced more than most.

And of course you'll read that as being boastful, but it's not. You questioned my qualifications, I'm just not sure how to relate them without using the word I.

Just like saying I made the choice to accept God's offer. That's not boasting, it's just something I did. Humbly and on my knees.

So did you, I hope.

 

[RickyZ]

The New covenant was made for the Jews, but as you stated they rejected it. That does not mean that n Jew cannot still be saved by grace through their faith. This rejection was known by Moses[Deut 32.21][Romans 10.19]

Gentiles were grafted into the new covenant and never replaced Israel in the new covenant.

Exactly. The New Covenant was made for the Jews, but they as a family rejected it. They had that choice. And absolutely, any individual Jew may by choice accept that covenant of Christ. The whole thing keeps coming back to that phrase - by choice.

Which brings us back to that question, is one saved by force or by choice?

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Exactly. The New Covenant was made for the Jews, but they as a family rejected it. They had that choice. And absolutely, any individual Jew may by choice accept that covenant of Christ. The whole thing keeps coming back to that phrase - by choice.

Which brings us back to that question, is one saved by force or by choice?

by Choice...

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I'm afraid but you have been subject to some terrible teaching in the church you attend!

Show me "free will" in the Bible! Another ridiculous man-made concept, which totally undermines the sovereignty of God.

So if it was "up to you" to say "I'm in" then you must have saved yourself by your own works, right?

So how it that going for you? Feeling discouraged?

Try becoming a new creature in Christ. That is not something you decide to just up and do, based on your whims.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:;17-18

Please note what it says "All this is from God," Salvation is from GOD! Not of yourself.

Here's my suggestion, Ricky. Put aside all these misconceptions and get out the New Testament and read what God says. Not what you hear in your church, since you have been badly taught! But the Bible, plan and simple!

It's there! I was in Arminian churches, and reading the Bible convinced me something was terribly wrong with the theology, because it did not line up with the Bible.

Praying God will show you the truth, that God is sovereign and he can save whosoever he wants.

Angela.

Did Jesus chase after the young rich ruler or let him go? Did Jesus tell his disciples to stick around people that rejected them, hoping to force them to join them? Was Jesus himself ever rejected for his own message? Yes, in Nazareth and he could do no mighty work there and was amazed at their unbelief. Did Paul chase after people?

If we you said was true, then none of the above would have happened.

 

[MarcR]

I'm afraid but you have been subject to some terrible teaching in the church you attend!

Show me "free will" in the Bible! Another ridiculous man-made concept, which totally undermines the sovereignty of God.

So if it was "up to you" to say "I'm in" then you must have saved yourself by your own works, right?

So how it that going for you? Feeling discouraged?

Try becoming a new creature in Christ. That is not something you decide to just up and do, based on your whims.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:;17-18

Please note what it says "All this is from God," Salvation is from GOD! Not of yourself.

Here's my suggestion, Ricky. Put aside all these misconceptions and get out the New Testament and read what God says. Not what you hear in your church, since you have been badly taught! But the Bible, plan and simple!

It's there! I was in Arminian churches, and reading the Bible convinced me something was terribly wrong with the theology, because it did not line up with the Bible.

Praying God will show you the truth, that God is sovereign and he can save whosoever he wants.

2 Pe 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


If the Lord desires something that He is able to make happen and elects not to make happen; doesn't that in itself presume freewill?

 

[john832]

The Jews were under the law and not under Grace....Under to O.T. law it is clear that 100% obedience was required......of the which it pointed to Christ as no man could fully keep it.....

Hebrews 11:8-10 The first thing on the list attributed to Abraham in the great chapter of faith is the reference I gave about believing God about a land and a city....

Uh, you sure?

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

David knew much about God's grace...

Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Psa 103:9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Jeremiah had a little insight himself...

Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

There was grace and forgiveness in the O.T.

 

[notuptome]

John 3:18-21 demonstrates the clear choice that men must make. Man received as a result of the fall the knowledge of good and evil. God confronts every man with the choice and man must choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

Uh, you sure?

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

David knew much about God's grace...

Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Psa 103:9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Jeremiah had a little insight himself...

Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

There was grace and forgiveness in the O.T.

Yeah I should have not made such a generalized statement without qualifying it and for sure grace is found in the O.T. just not as fully revealed in the N.T. David should have died under the law for his murder of Uraiah and taking the daughter of Sheba....I actually thought about it when I posted what I posted, but was generalizing about the O.T. and the covenant relationship that God had established with Israel......

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yeah I should have not made such a generalized statement without qualifying it and for sure grace is found in the O.T. just not as fully revealed in the N.T. David should have died under the law for his murder of Uraiah and taking the daughter of Sheba....I actually thought about it when I posted what I posted, but was generalizing about the O.T. and the covenant relationship that God had established with Israel......

Yes David should have been put to death by the Mosaic law, but David constantly repented of his wrong doings to the Lord.
Which we can see in the Psalms he wrote, this is why God said he was a man after His own heart. Because David constantly seeked out God and when he did mess up it repented/confessed of it. We see that same standard carried over in the NT with the Apostle John's teaching.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That is an interesting take on it, that you are not truly saved until the very end, when the evidence of your works (or lack thereof) dictates whether your salvation is honored. I think there is some truth in that, again in that works are the evidence of salvation, but it leans heavily towards the works produces salvation theory which I think for the most part is not true. But it does kind of address the "they were of us but they weren't" scriptures.

I believe by the many scriptures I have scene in the bible that it speaks that we have mental assurance right now of receiving salvation based on keeping the faith in the Lord. The actually physical possession of it only comes after we have endured this life in the flesh by overcoming the world by walking in the Spirit.
Apostle Paul and Peter give many scriptures showing salvation is the ending result of our faith, and not the beginning of our faith.

 

[RickyZ]

Going back to Angela's post: Free will is implied in the fact that we have a choice. Ya can't choose between options without a free will. And it goes all the way back to Adam. God created creation, He then created Adam and gave Adam authority over creation. But He did give Adam a choice - God told him not to eat from the tree, but again Adam had the choice to accept that or not. And he chose wrong. And again we see a pattern - Adam was in God's graces, but by his choice Adam removed himself from that grace. Just like the early Jews were in God's graces, but by their choice they removed themselves from that covering.

God didn't kick either Adam or the Jews out of His graces... they did that themselves by virtue of the fact that God gave them a choice to make... and they chose to turn against God.

 

[RickyZ]

So we've come to see that salvation is accepted by the receivers choice to believe. Belief is not a work (thus one is not saved by works) but choice is still an integral part of receiving the salvation that God eagerly offers us.

That's the OS part.

Now for the AS. Since receiving salvation is up to the individual's choice, does an individual have the choice to subsequently reject it? Adam and the Jews did. So the question is, once saved and under grace, is our ability to choose on lockdown? Or are we free to change our minds?

 

[RickyZ]

2 Pe 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


If the Lord desires something that He is able to make happen and elects not to make happen; doesn't that in itself presume freewill?

Exactly! God could force us to obey Him... but He doesn't. He yields His will in order to give us the authority to take part (or not take part) in bringing His will to bear in this world. He yields His sovereignty in order to give us a choice.