Just another OSAS thread
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So where does the word "I" go from being a descriptor to a boast? I don't think anyone truly saved would boast "wow look at me I accepted!", but would instead humbly, like the tax collector in Jesus' example, say "thank You Lord, I a dirty sinner accept."
I think this is another issue that keeps the debate going. People who have polarized themselves to either side tend to see things that aren't really there.
I think this is another issue that keeps the debate going. People who have polarized themselves to either side tend to see things that aren't really there.
What work did Abraham do in the verses below?
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Sovereign: (per Google)
adjective
Possessing supreme or ultimate power.
"in modern democracies the people's will is in theory sovereign"
Was God holding a gun to your head to make you accept His offer of grace? No, that decision was completely up to you. Your decisions are completely under your power. That's what I meant by sovereign. Perhaps that was the wrong word to use.
adjective
Possessing supreme or ultimate power.
"in modern democracies the people's will is in theory sovereign"
Was God holding a gun to your head to make you accept His offer of grace? No, that decision was completely up to you. Your decisions are completely under your power. That's what I meant by sovereign. Perhaps that was the wrong word to use.
Hey...Your choice......I was reading a little further p and you are almost there.....It is not our works that save us, but salvation is evidenced by works.....that does not alleviate the saved who fit under the following groupings...
1. Some cut loose for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit is saved in the day of Christ
2. Some backslide and forgotten that the have been purged
3. Some have works of wood, hay and stubble which burn yet are saved so as by fire
4. Some squander their inheritance by riotous living like the prodigal
5. Some are vessels of dishonor yet in the house
6. Some get chastised and whipped by God for walking contrary
7. Some God just kills in the flesh and takes home early
Believe what you will bro as for me...I believe in the completed works of Christ, I am sealed by the Spirit of Promise, I am in the Father's hand, I am in the Son's hand, I am justified by the faith of Christ, I have the righteousness of God imputed to me by faith and I am saved to the uttermost by the finished workings of JESUS......Sorry if you don't believe that or buy that.....I have assurance and no problem standing in that lot bro....!
1. Some cut loose for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit is saved in the day of Christ
2. Some backslide and forgotten that the have been purged
3. Some have works of wood, hay and stubble which burn yet are saved so as by fire
4. Some squander their inheritance by riotous living like the prodigal
5. Some are vessels of dishonor yet in the house
6. Some get chastised and whipped by God for walking contrary
7. Some God just kills in the flesh and takes home early
Believe what you will bro as for me...I believe in the completed works of Christ, I am sealed by the Spirit of Promise, I am in the Father's hand, I am in the Son's hand, I am justified by the faith of Christ, I have the righteousness of God imputed to me by faith and I am saved to the uttermost by the finished workings of JESUS......Sorry if you don't believe that or buy that.....I have assurance and no problem standing in that lot bro....!
Interesting, and another one to ponder. But I guess that then goes to one's definition of 'works'. I think we would all agree that what we do with our hands qualifies as works. But you then raise the question of whether the thoughts in our heads and words on our lips qualify as works. Because we do have to consciously think, and say, Lord I accept. So maybe that's something to look into - does anyone have any scripture(s) that define or dismiss our thoughts and words as 'works'?
And that reaches into the other half of the equation, the AS portion of it (not that I think we've resolved the OS issue yet). But yes you are absolutely right. Just as good works don't get you in, bad works don't kick you out. Bad works help expose the fakes. But absolutely, yes, we will be tried for our works and some will be burnt away, but we will still be saved.
Provided that at one point, we honestly thought and said "Lord I accept".
We'll come back to this when we get into the AS part.
Provided that at one point, we honestly thought and said "Lord I accept".
We'll come back to this when we get into the AS part.
If we keep reading further in Romans 4, Paul flat out says that believing is not working. Do you disagree?
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Is faith a spiritual gift or not?<---Corinthians
God has dealt to everyman a measure of faith<---who dealt out faith?<--Romans
The natural man cannot receive, know and or discern the spiritual things of God<--Corinthians
The Spirit of God leads, guides into all truth<---John
Who is the instigator in all of the above references and what does it say about faith and the word gift?
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<----Who gave the ability to believe (have faith)
God has dealt to everyman a measure of faith<---who dealt out faith?<--Romans
The natural man cannot receive, know and or discern the spiritual things of God<--Corinthians
The Spirit of God leads, guides into all truth<---John
Who is the instigator in all of the above references and what does it say about faith and the word gift?
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<----Who gave the ability to believe (have faith)
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That is terrible exegesis of Gods word to imply that salvation is not until the very end. Gods word says that we have the witness of His Spirit with our spirit that we are His. There is to be no doubt. We are promised peace that passeth understanding. If you truly understand the severity of Gods judgment on sin then even one small doubt would rob you of any peace.
If you do not know you are saved you probably are not saved and are just kidding yourself. It is likely that ninety percent of the folks who claim to be Christians are not and are following a false gospel. And before you ask I'm terrified about that number.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you do not know you are saved you probably are not saved and are just kidding yourself. It is likely that ninety percent of the folks who claim to be Christians are not and are following a false gospel. And before you ask I'm terrified about that number.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I did not "accept" God's offer of grace. That term is nowhere found in the Bible, but rather in the playbooks of 20th century evangelists.
Instead, God revealed himself to me to be the sovereign and saving God, and I believed!
Belief is not a work. It is a response. I was not under my own power when I met Jesus Christ. I was totally in his hands from start to finish! (Meaning now!)
Before I was saved, I was not under my own power either! I was ruled and controlled by the Prince of Darkness.
How great is God to call me, justify me, sanctify me and one day glorify me when he returns!
Through no human will, but rather through the omnipresent, omniscent, and omnipotent Lord of the Universe's sovereign freedom and will!
If it were not for God, I would be still on my downward path. I had no strength, will or power to change. But the Holy Spirit was placed in my heart by a loving Saviour. That is the true gospel.
We cannot save ourselves by an act of our wills. Rather, the act of Christ's death on the cross, having lived a perfect life of obedience to the Father, and the power of God revealed in the resurrection, saves us.
Instead, God revealed himself to me to be the sovereign and saving God, and I believed!
Belief is not a work. It is a response. I was not under my own power when I met Jesus Christ. I was totally in his hands from start to finish! (Meaning now!)
Before I was saved, I was not under my own power either! I was ruled and controlled by the Prince of Darkness.
How great is God to call me, justify me, sanctify me and one day glorify me when he returns!
Through no human will, but rather through the omnipresent, omniscent, and omnipotent Lord of the Universe's sovereign freedom and will!
If it were not for God, I would be still on my downward path. I had no strength, will or power to change. But the Holy Spirit was placed in my heart by a loving Saviour. That is the true gospel.
We cannot save ourselves by an act of our wills. Rather, the act of Christ's death on the cross, having lived a perfect life of obedience to the Father, and the power of God revealed in the resurrection, saves us.
Romans 4 New International Version (NIV) 
[h=3]Abraham Justified by Faith[/h]1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! [SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
***
Well, that does seem to say that belief is separate from works. And it includes the admonition we've already talked about that a work that follows belief (in this case circumcision) is evidence of the belief.
Excellent point and reference.
Others?
[h=3]Abraham Justified by Faith[/h]1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! [SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
***
Well, that does seem to say that belief is separate from works. And it includes the admonition we've already talked about that a work that follows belief (in this case circumcision) is evidence of the belief.
Excellent point and reference.
Others?