Keeping the law = Salvation (Right???)

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Jul 22, 2014
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#21
Grace is either a license for you to sin or Grace is for you to do that which is righteous and good. Grace does not ever allow for a believer to be in lawlessness and or to serve themselves and sin. To suggest otherwise is to basically say God will allow you to do evil in His good name (Which is just not possible).

The purpose of the Law was that it was a school master or teacher to bring us unto Christ. Meaning, we do not throw away our teachings of what we learned of what we know to be good and right when we come to Christ. Otherwise then why not just skip the Law and just go to Christ then?

In other words, the Law lets us know we need a Savior. But then.... the Savior works in us to do that which is good and pleasing within His sight, though.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#22
Grace is either a license for you to sin or Grace is for you to do that which is righteous and good. Grace does not ever allow for a believer to be in lawlessness and or to serve themselves and sin. To suggest otherwise is to basically say God will allow you to do evil in His good name (Which is just not possible).

The purpose of the Law was that it was a school master or teacher to bring us unto Christ. Meaning, we do not throw away our teachings of what we learned of what we know to be good and right when we come to Christ. Otherwise then why not just skip the Law and just go to Christ then?

Grace is only needed when one is undeserving.

According to your false theology, Grace is no longer needed, because one who has earned somethign by fulfiling its precept no longer needs mercy or grace.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#23
When I speak of Law, I am not talking about the Law of Moses, but the Law of Christ as spoken about in the New Testament.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#24
Grace is only needed when one is undeserving.

According to your false theology, Grace is no longer needed, because one who has earned somethign by fulfiling its precept no longer needs mercy or grace.
Cheap grace is what allows a person to think they can get away sin and still be saved. However, the Bible does not teach cheap grace.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25
When I speak of Law, I am not talking about the Law of Moses, but the Law of Christ as spoken about in the New Testament.
same difference.

Jesus gave the law to moses. and confirmed that law in the NT. Every command Jesus gave in the NT was included in the mosaic law.


don't try to excuse your sin (breaking the law) by changing the law. it will not help you.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#26


Cheap grace is what allows a person to think they can get away sin and still be saved. However, the Bible does not teach cheap grace.
I never said it did.

But grace is still grace (unmerited favor)

so how can you recieve grace, when you have earned something? would it not be called works?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#27
Why even bother to serve God if one is just going to do evil and sin on occasion? How is one different than an unbeliever if that is the case? How would God be just and Holy if He allowed His people to get away with evil? Would not such an action on God's behalf make God unjust? For if you let your kids get away with stealing, would you be considered a good parent? No. Of course not.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#28
Why even bother to serve God if one is just going to do evil and sin on occasion? Why do you think God would be unjust in allowing His people to get away with evil? Would not such an action on God's behalf make God unjust? For if you let your kids get away with stealing, would you be considered a good parent? No. Of course not.

So you breaking the law as much as you do is ok. but others breaking the law (even though they may be different sins) is not ok?

Where do you get that your sin are not as bad as theirs? When scripture says even the least of the law if broken, causes one to be guilty of the whole law.

All sin is evil. Not just your pet sins.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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#29
I read many posts that ask a redundant question; "why do you want to go back under the law?" when I mention the instructions that God gave to Moses have always been beneficial for instructions in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16)
That verse includes all the scriptures of the Old Testament and whatever Timothy had been taught of the New Covenant by oral and written means. Let's put it in proper perspective with additional context. 2 Timothy 3:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


For the sake of clarity, the truth is Paul was grooming Timothy to minister the New Covenant that Paul taught. That included knowledge of Genesis, but of Moses and the law, the judges, the kings, and all the prophets, plus all that was known by Paul concerning the gospel of Christ.

So what does the term “under the law” really mean?

Romans 6:14-15
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Paul is juxtaposing using the observances of former religious rules and practices of Jewish commandments instituted by the rabbis, and binding customs along with the grace that is available in Messiah.
Juxtaposing is to place close together or side by side, especially for comparison or contrast.
Jesus found that the Law of Moses had been corrupted from priests down to the lowest Levite ranch hand. It wasn't limited to rabbis, Pharisees, but the priests also defied God, as none were implementing the Law as limited to the Torah. Paul was in that passage contrasting Moses against Grace. The Law was not at all about grace, but was of works only. Do this, don't do that. If you do this, then you must also do this....
Jesus opened up God's grace to all who would believe on him, not something linked to acts of a few notable ancient saints who pleased God by works.
So let's be sure to set the stage properly for greatest understanding that the Second Temple period was under the sentence of exile in 70AD. The prophets had already delivered the news from God that the Jews had broken the covenant, and that the old covenant was faulty. By the time Jesus walked among men, the Old Covenant, the Law, sorely needed to be replaced, and was, and is based on better promises from God through those same prophets.

Hebrews 8:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


It should be clear to anyone that the New Covenant completely replaced the old. God would not hold the old over anyone, as that covenant was dead, and so was Israel spiritually dead. Those that tried to adopt it still wind up under the yoke of the Talmud, which Jesus demonstrated that the Jews had replaced the written Mosaic Torah with.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

In this regard the law (Torah) can be compared with any righteous values a soul voluntarily imposes upon themselves. However as a spiritual relationship is established with God and Christ Jesus, a soul is elevated to much higher levels of spiritual awareness and accountability. Therefore, it is a complete farce when Christians claim to follow the Messiah, but willfully abuse and neglect the instructions in the Law (Torah) according to their denominational authorities. The term “kept under the law” is indicative of popular anti-law theology. Many fail to understand that without the law of God (the Pentateuch), there would be no standard with which to prove Christ Jesus, therefore NO Messiah.
Keep in mind that Israel had abandoned the old covenant between God and their fathers long before the Talmud replaced the written law. The Talmud served to widen the gap between God and Israel. Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians taught to adopt the old covenant like the Jews were supposed to, but failed at. With all their scriptures to know, the Jews believed their Messiah would be a flesh king of the Davidic line coming to rescue them from Rome. They were looking for a second David.

It was necessary for Jesus, born a Jew, to never violate any of the written law.

Jesus could have manifested to the people in India, and by his works alone be found to be divine without a single word of the Torah. Around the world are millions of Wycliffe and Gideon New Testament Bibles, as well as many other ministry versions that are all people need, in their own languages, to find Christ.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The idiomatic expression “under the law” refers to a false teaching that has never been true. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that this phrase “under the law” refers to strict religious Jewish commandments instituted by the rabbis, and binding customs, not obedience to God's law itself. Torah has not at any time saved anyone! God saves when His people demonstrate a sincere obedience to His righteous instruction. Blind ritual (or religion) alone without the love of God profits nothing. God is “the Spirit” of the Renewed Covenant that writes the law upon our heart.
I've been keeping up with the Dead Sea Scroll news, not seeing that discovery. Please link to it. So far nothing different of great significance has emerged other than to verify the political, legal, cultural variety of the area was extremely diverse. They still can't verify whether Qumran was Essene or Sadducee society, though most scholars "believe" they were Essenes.
Although there were rabbis in those days, the significant influences of the rabbinical system didn't kick in until 6th century AD. The priests of Judah were still running things in Paul's day, other than those that became Christians (Acts 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
) until the second temple was destroyed. Then came movements to figure out what to do without it, among a widely dispersed people using synagogues.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
If, therefore, perfection had been by means of the priesthood of the Levities in which the law was imposed upon people, why was another priest required who should stand up after the likeness of Melchizedek?
Here is the key that sets the context for Hebrews 8:13. Throughout chapter 7, it is the “instruction” of the Levitical priests officiating the Temple ordinances that are being discussed, pointing towards Abraham submitting his sons to be in the line of Melchizedek, by tithing to him in advance. What happens is a switching of priestly modalities within the instructions of the law where the priestly model in Exodus gives way to its predecessor from Genesis, in accordance with all the prophesies in the Old Testament. Again, pagan tradition uses this passage to teach that it is the “Law” that has passed away. Another vital component to understanding this priesthood is that the binding of Isaac at Moriah points to the Melchizedek priesthood, not to the Levitical priesthood. With that, the “binding of Isaac” is fully realized in Messiah, the son of man, the Suffering Servant who is Jesus.
Abraham's son Isaac (singular, not many) begat the line that led to Aaron and his sons as priests, not at all after the order or lineage of Melchisedec. No Levite or anyone else in the OT reverted back to the Genesis "line" of Melchidesedec. The man Melchisedec was not eternal, (though having no genealogy recorded, being a Canaanite that emerged from mortal obscurity back into mortal obscurity), but the priesthood he ministered was eternal, followed only by Jesus today and forever. That priesthood made the man greater than the man Abraham.

The only connection the Levites had to Melchisedec was the tithes they collected were by Jewish accounting credited back through Abraham since Levi was genetically in Abraham. There is a better comparison between the earthly priesthood and the eternal, in that priests of the earthly one die. That's one reason Jesus was set to doe, never to minister in the mortal priesthood. His priesthood was a better one than Aaron's.

To teach that Paul taught a pagan doctrine about the law will require you to believe ALL he OT prophets were false prophets, and in fact including very OT author. If you can do that, then I would be bound to prove Moses was a false prophet too. But of course that can't happen. I think the real problem is a lack of reading and study of the epistles, but does indicate a heavy persuasion from mixed up web site authors. That, I hope, isn't a sign there are yet some unidentified Hebrew Roots Movement deceivers here at CChat. Those are far more destructive than JWs.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#30
So you breaking the law as much as you do is ok. but others breaking the law (even though they may be different sins) is not ok?

Where do you get that your sin are not as bad as theirs? When scripture says even the least of the law if broken, causes one to be guilty of the whole law.

All sin is evil. Not just your pet sins.
First, you make the wrong assumption that I or all believers sin as a way of life. Your life is the measuring stick of what a believer's life should be like. God's Word is the standard.

Second, 1 Peter 4:1 says believers have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have not ceased from sin and who have eyes full of adultery (2 Peter 2:1, 14). In fact, nowhere in Scripture do we see Jesus and or any of the other apostles condong a sin and still be saved doctrine. Romans 7 is your only chapter that you can potentially use to twist to your advantage. But we know that Paul was not talking as a Christian who struggle with sin, but he was talking as a Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because he says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from the law of sin and death.

Third, the Scriptures say sin is iniquity. Are you not working iniquity when you sin? What did Jesus say to those who worked iniquity in Matthew 7?
 
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Mar 4, 2013
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#31
To teach that Paul taught a pagan doctrine about the law will require you to believe ALL he OT prophets were false prophets, and in fact including very OT author. If you can do that, then I would be bound to prove Moses was a false prophet too. But of course that can't happen. I think the real problem is a lack of reading and study of the epistles, but does indicate a heavy persuasion from mixed up web site authors. That, I hope, isn't a sign there are yet some unidentified Hebrew Roots Movement deceivers here at CChat. Those are far more destructive than JWs.
It is wrong to think that Paul taught a false doctrine. Here are his words in Act 24:14
"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

I appreciate your input, but as I read it, I determined that your input (which I appreciate) was completely superfluous. Thank you and may God bless. I'm amazed that the term "Hebrew Roots Movement" keeps coming up when I am in no way affiliated with them. I have some problems with them and if they knew the way I believe, I'm sure they would have problems with me. I have attended Baptist churches most of my Christian life. :confused:
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#32
First, you make the wrong assumption that I or all believers sin as a way of life. Your life is the measuring stick of what a believer's life should be like. God's Word is the standard.
1st off. You make the wrong assumption that how you or I or anyone else behave matters, what matters is what God says, His standard is the law. that is the standard by which we must go off.

comparing yourself to others was the mistake the pharisees made, and why they rejected christ, you seem to fall for that same mistake. comparing yourself to others and not the law.


second off. yet again, You just stuck your foot in your mouth because you refuse to read what I said. Not once did I make any statement or even suggest that sin was a way of life. or not a way of life. Your assumption thus caused you once again to make a complete and utter useless response. because as always, you refuse to listen to what anyone says, and always read through blinders.

and you wonder why people get so short tempered with you??


Second, 1 Peter 4:1 says believers have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have not ceased from sin and who have eyes full of adultery (2 Peter 2:1, 14). In fact, nowhere in Scripture do we see Jesus and or any of the other apostles condong a sin and still be saved doctrine. Romans 7 is your only chapter that you can potentially use to twist to your advantage. But we know that Paul was not talking as a Christian who struggle with sin, but he was talking as a Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because he says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from the law of sin and death.

ok. so your perfect. so you no longer need grace correct? For you have merited favor with god. Grace is unmerited favor.


how can you preach grace, when grace no longer applies to you. you have made it. And done what Paul himself, and John could not do.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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#33

So you breaking the law as much as you do is ok. but others breaking the law (even though they may be different sins) is not ok?

Where do you get that your sin are not as bad as theirs? When scripture says even the least of the law if broken, causes one to be guilty of the whole law.

All sin is evil. Not just your pet sins.
I'll ask where does the Bible teach all sins are the same? I know that's a traditional belief, one that sinners hate, believing people who say that are hypocrites. There are some sins that God is on record as hating. There are some sins that are so bad they required capital punishment, usually by stoning to death. Some required only a pigeon to be offered for sacrifice.

There are grievous sins, and there are minor sins. The Law of Moses defines sin. Agreed, "sin" as defined is indeed sin. But not all sins are equal. Someone that eats a second helping and gaining weight is not listed in Revelation 22:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

"dogs" refers to vile affectioned, such as GLBT who don't repent. None of that is equated to sleeping in through a church service, single Mom working two jobs 6 days a week.
 

kodiak

Senior Member
Mar 8, 2015
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#34
Why even bother to serve God if one is just going to do evil and sin on occasion? How is one different than an unbeliever if that is the case? How would God be just and Holy if He allowed His people to get away with evil? Would not such an action on God's behalf make God unjust? For if you let your kids get away with stealing, would you be considered a good parent? No. Of course not.
so No one can possibly be a Christian? Everyone has sinned, sin is evil, so we all are evil and cannot be forgiven? So it means that it was unholy for Jesus to die for all of us? I thought he washed away our sin, so we are forgiven.... He died on the cross, so our sins would be forgiven and we would not be bound by sin anymore.

You ask how are we different from unbelievers.....because we believe and they don't.....Just because we are Christians does not mean we are better and should be stuck up. Ephesians 2:9.....If we were perfect (saved through works), we could boast.....The truth is we are imperfect humans that have been given grace.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#35
I'll ask where does the Bible teach all sins are the same? I know that's a traditional belief, one that sinners hate, believing people who say that are hypocrites. There are some sins that God is on record as hating. There are some sins that are so bad they required capital punishment, usually by stoning to death. Some required only a pigeon to be offered for sacrifice.
1. Your looking at sins from a society viewpoint, and not Gods viewpoint. Murder and rape is horribly wrong on society, and must be punished more severely.
2. Gods viewpoint is the law. he makes no distinction. remember, Adam and Eve at a fruit of the vine, and death spread to all mankind because of this seemingly innocent act. That is what God thinks of even the smallest white lie. the most innocent of sins are so putrid to God. it separates us from him.

That is why james said, If you break even the LEAST of the law, your found guilty as if you broke the whole law.


There are grievous sins, and there are minor sins. The Law of Moses defines sin. Agreed, "sin" as defined is indeed sin. But not all sins are equal. Someone that eats a second helping and gaining weight is not listed in Revelation 22:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

"dogs" refers to vile affectioned, such as GLBT who don't repent. None of that is equated to sleeping in through a church service, single Mom working two jobs 6 days a week.
Jesus made it clear. Love the lord your God, and love your neighbor. in these stand all the law.

If I lie to someone, even the littlest white lie, I have broken both of these commands (as well as bearing false witness), and am seen as a sinner, and condemned rightly by the law

If I see someone in need, and do not give, I have again broken both commands and am condemned by the law.

don't be fooled into thinking because you do not commit murder, rape. look at porn, are not a child molestor, dont cuss, smoke or do drugs, that god looks at you more favorably. that would be the mistakes the pharisees made.

God looks at us all as sinners, who fall short of his holy perfect and righteous self.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#36
First, you make the wrong assumption that I or all believers sin as a way of life. Your life is the measuring stick of what a believer's life should be like. God's Word is the standard.

Second, 1 Peter 4:1 says believers have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have not ceased from sin and who have eyes full of adultery (2 Peter 2:1, 14). In fact, nowhere in Scripture do we see Jesus and or any of the other apostles condong a sin and still be saved doctrine. Romans 7 is your only chapter that you can potentially use to twist to your advantage. But we know that Paul was not talking as a Christian who struggle with sin, but he was talking as a Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because he says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from the law of sin and death.

Third, the Scriptures say sin is iniquity. Are you not working iniquity when you sin? What did Jesus say to those who worked iniquity in Matthew 7?
I fail to see anyone is saying we can sin as a way of life...

strawman-full.jpg
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#37
I fail to see anyone is saying we can sin as a way of life...
This is very true, but there's a much larger concern, and a danger I've noticed, of not enough grace versus law threads on ChristianChat. What I most fear is that, if people stop bickering over the meaning of the simple and clear gospel of scripture, there will be nothing left to discuss, leaving just the Catholics still duking it out with Martin Luther.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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#38
1. Your looking at sins from a society viewpoint, and not Gods viewpoint. Murder and rape is horribly wrong on society, and must be punished more severely.
2. Gods viewpoint is the law. he makes no distinction. remember, Adam and Eve at a fruit of the vine, and death spread to all mankind because of this seemingly innocent act. That is what God thinks of even the smallest white lie. the most innocent of sins are so putrid to God. it separates us from him.

That is why james said, If you break even the LEAST of the law, your found guilty as if you broke the whole law.




Jesus made it clear. Love the lord your God, and love your neighbor. in these stand all the law.

If I lie to someone, even the littlest white lie, I have broken both of these commands (as well as bearing false witness), and am seen as a sinner, and condemned rightly by the law

If I see someone in need, and do not give, I have again broken both commands and am condemned by the law.

don't be fooled into thinking because you do not commit murder, rape. look at porn, are not a child molestor, dont cuss, smoke or do drugs, that god looks at you more favorably. that would be the mistakes the pharisees made.

God looks at us all as sinners, who fall short of his holy perfect and righteous self.
The difference is in the heart EG. Continued murder,adultery,idolatry,and the all the other sins that are SPELLED out in the NT as ones doing those things will NOT inherit the kingdom are forms of REBELLION and are not sins of STUMBLING or imperfect love.

Rebellion meaning Merriam

[h=1]rebellion[/h]



noun re·bel·lion \ri-ˈbel-yən\

: an effort by many people to change the government or leader of a country by the use of protest or violence

: open opposition toward a person or group in authority

: refusal to obey rules or accept normal standards of behavior, dress, etc.




Full Definition of REBELLION
1
: opposition to one in authority or dominance


2
a : open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government
b : an instance of such defiance or resistance



Those are the sins one MUST stop because they are from the attitude from the heart. The heart of those who do so are in DEFIANCE of God.
 
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oldthennew

Guest
#39
the absurdity of these kind of posts is redundant, to say the least./
why people continue to participate is almost beyond comprehension!!!

please, STOP this 'repetitive 'insanity' = of Law and Grace.
 
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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#40
At last!! A thread that I can simply give a hearty "AMEN!!" to and move on -- the "Amen" not including posts #21, #23, #27, and #30. Those are just unadulterated gibberish -- assuming "unadulterated" can be used as a modifier for "gibberish."



... oops! Except for the one after this post, too. Looks argumentative to me.
 
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