Keeping the law = Salvation (Right???)

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Dec 12, 2013
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Abraham BELIEVED God and it was put to his account for righteousness....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE....

If you BELIEVE in your heart that God has rasied him (JESUS) from the dead thou shalt be saved...

In the grace you are having been saved OUT OF FAITH and that NOT of YOURSELVES..it is the GIFT of GOD, not of works lest any man should BOAST

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten SON, that WHOSEVER believes in HIM should not perish, but IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE!

The just shall LIVE by FAITH

Faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN!
 
Jul 22, 2014
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There is a difference between intellectual philosophy of Christianity and what sin is and isn't, and actually coming to Christ.

Walking in the Light as He is in the Light is critical in the Life of a believer. You have to admit that you are powerless in your fight against your flesh and carnal mind. The carnal mind and flesh has no ability to conquer the carnal mind and flesh!!! Only the Spirit has this ability to conquer the carnal mind, and you have no ability to grow yourself Spiritually... You must come to Christ for this.

It doesn't matter what your intellectual thought on what sin is or what I tell you sin is. All that matters is that you are honest about it before the Lord Jesus Christ.


I could easily agree with you and say future sin is not forgiven. Because there is no such thing as future sin. It is a construct you have made up in your head because you don't want to believe the goodness of God. There is One that is Good. And its not you. Nor is it me, if you think I'm somehow being self-righteous.

If you truly want someone to produce good works you lead them to Christ. If you truly want people to overcome sin you lead them to Christ. If you truly want people to have Victory in their lives you lead them to Christ. You don't tell them all the things you think they are doing wrong, as if they could fix it themselves.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Well, you make assumptions that I just do not believe. I do not believe we fix ourselves. I believe God fixes us. But we cannot be fixed if we hold onto our sin, though. We cannot be fixed if we refuse to confess of our sin so as to be forgiven as 1 John 1:9 says. We cannot be cleansed of all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ if we do not walk in the light as he is in the light according to 1 John 1:7. For it is Christ's light that we walk in and not our own light. So no. I do not believe we are saved of our own effort. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. But we must yield to Christ and the good work He wants to do within us, though. For we must abide in Christ for Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. There is no life outside the Son. Life can only be found in the Son (1 John 5:12).
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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Well, you make assumptions that I just do not believe. I do not believe we fix ourselves. I believe God fixes us. But we cannot be fixed if we hold onto our sin, though. We cannot be fixed if we refuse to confess of our sin so as to be forgiven as 1 John 1:9 says. We cannot be cleansed of all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ if we do not walk in the light as he is in the light according to 1 John 1:7. For it is Christ's light that we walk in and not our own light. So no. I do not believe we are saved of our own effort. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. But we must yield to Christ and the good work He wants to do within us, though. For we must abide in Christ for Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. There is no life outside the Son. Life can only be found in the Son (1 John 5:12).
I wonder if you see all your inconsistencies? No, probably not.

You say you believe God fixes us but then no He doesn't if you hold on to your sin. And then after all the disqualifications of our own work you say you don't believe we fix ourselves. God won't fix us unless we do this or that? What happened to Ephesians 2:8-9??? Do you just chuck those out?

Your main confusion is about sin. You are holding on to it too tightly. Your sin is not a problem for the Lord. All you need is faith that His Power is greater than your sin. You know, greater is He that is in You than he that is in the world. You are trying to make it the other way around.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I wonder if you see all your inconsistencies? No, probably not.

You say you believe God fixes us but then no He doesn't if you hold on to your sin. And then after all the disqualifications of our own work you say you don't believe we fix ourselves. God won't fix us unless we do this or that? What happened to Ephesians 2:8-9??? Do you just chuck those out?

Your main confusion is about sin. You are holding on to it too tightly. Your sin is not a problem for the Lord. All you need is faith that His Power is greater than your sin. You know, greater is He that is in You than he that is in the world. You are trying to make it the other way around.
I agree for sure......seems to be the case on numerous biblical truths....!
 
K

Kefa54

Guest
The Law of God is one of the most misunderstood parts of the Bible. Some people believe that Jesus lives in us to equip us to keep the Law of God. “Jesus fulfills the Law through me as I trust Him,” you may hear them say. Truthfully, I used to teach this myself and have even written in earlier books that as Christ lives His life through us we will fulfill the Law without even having to focus on it. It made sense to me until I began to look more closely at what the Scripture says about the subject. (We are all growing in grace, even authors who write about it!) The problem I came to see with this viewpoint is that it still leaves us in a relationship to the Law. It simply changes from a negative one to a positive one. What the Bible actually teaches, however, is that you and I have no relationship to the Law—neither positive nor negative. The Law has nothing to do with us. It’s important to understand God’s original purpose in giving the Law. Reading about the early history of man after the Creation recorded in Genesis, you notice that for centuries there was no law given to the human race. Then God selected Abram (Abraham) to begin a new work. From Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob and his sons came the 12 tribes of Israel. They go down to live in Egypt, as a result of Joseph’s journey there. Finally, in response to the people’s cries for deliverance, God selects Moses as His leader to take Israel back to the Promised Land. There, on the way to Canaan, God calls Moses to meet with Him on Mount Sinai, and He presents the covenant known as the Law of Moses (Exodus 19). The many chapters that follow—through Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy—spell out the details of what was also known as the old covenant, the constitution of God’s relationship with Israel. That covenant stayed in effect until the new covenant was inaugurated by the death of Jesus Christ. Why did God give Israel the Law? Many think the Law was given to squelch sin among the people, but the real reason was very different.

For what purpose do you think the Law was given? Do you think it was given so that the trespasses in people’s lives might be decreased? The apostle Paul explains why God gave the Law to Israel. He wrote, “The Law came in so that the transgression would increase” (Romans 5:20). That biblical fact comes as a surprise to many people. God didn’t give the Law to stop sin among His people but rather to stimulate it! What possible reason would He have in doing such a thing? It was so that the people would come to see their sinfulness and abandon the misguided notion that their own moral character would ever be enough to achieve acceptance by God. The basis of God’s acceptance of humanity has never been our own goodness. But it has always been because of His grace. By stimulating sin in the people’s lives, the Law would cause them to see how much they needed grace. This was a perfect situation because Paul went on to say, “But where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). Man’s sin increased, and God’s grace increased. Grace could not respond to the sense of self-righteousness that trapped Israel—but it would overtake and overshadow their sinfulness once they saw and admitted it. That’s how it still works today, even among Gentiles (non-Jews) who try to keep religious rules as a way of gaining God’s favor. Although the Law wasn’t given to the Gentiles, it will do the same thing to you that it was intended to do in the lives of the Jewish nation of Israel when it was given to them. In another New Testament passage, Paul described the Law as a tutor that came to lead them to Christ so that they would be justified by faith (see Galatians 3:24). So the Law was given to Israel to show them their sinfulness and their inability to earn acceptance by God through works. How, then, could we rightfully think that Jesus Christ lives inside us to help us keep the Law? Jesus Christ didn’t come to help us keep the Law. He came to fulfill the Law on our behalf and to deliver us from the Law system altogether! Romans 10:4 says, “Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” We don’t even need to keep the Law today because we have the fulfillment of the Law living in us, and He has taken us away from all that! Note that I didn’t say we break it. I said we don’t keep it. Again, we have no relationship to the Law whatsoever. Jesus has no intention to help you keep God’s Law, but that’s not all. He also wants you to know that you make a serious mistake when you focus on the Law at all. Your focus is to be on Him, not a set of rules that you imagine God requires of you. Your Father has no rule-keeping requirements for you! Jesus has ended that whole system. The Bible plainly says that “you are not under law but under grace” (Romans 6:14) and that “now we have been released from the law” (Romans 7:6). Trying to live in the Law system is a misguided effort regardless of how sincere it may be. You don’t have to do anything to earn your Father’s acceptance. The Father accepts Jesus, and because you are in Him, you are as accepted by God the Father as Jesus Christ Himself! (See Ephesians 1:6.) Sometimes those of us who teach of our freedom from the Law will cause critics to suggest that we are antinomian—a word that means “against the Law.” My contention is that they are against the Law because they deny its biblical purpose under the old covenant and want to turn it into a moral code for living today. Trying to live by the Law is a curse because nobody can do it, but we don’t have to do it! The Bible plainly says that “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law” (Galatians 3:13). To try to live by religious rules today is to try to put yourself right back under that curse! The Scripture says, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse” (Galatians 3:10). So the lie that Jesus empowers us to fulfill the Law of God suggests that Jesus came in to us to put us under a curse! Paul told the church at Rome, “Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4). Religious rules can never produce fruit. They only produce religious nuts! However, a lifestyle lived out of union with the Christ who dwells within us produces authentic spiritual fruit that honors God.

If you’ve been taught that your relationship with God needs to stay focused on behaving in the right way, the idea that you don’t have to live by religious rules anymore may be a little scary at first. Be assured that I’m not suggesting here that behavior isn’t important. The truth is that if you want your behavior to honor your Father, it won’t happen by trying to keep religious rules. In fact, the Bible says that religious rules actually arouse sinful desires in you. Romans 7:5 says that sinful passions are “aroused by the Law.” Does it make sense that Jesus would empower you to focus on the Law when the Bible says the Law stimulates sin? Our focus is to be Christ Himself, not a system of rules that we wrongly imagine God is expecting us to use as a code for living. Jesus is our source of living, and His life within us is more than enough to ensure that the actions in our lifestyle honor the Father. If we have believed that Christ empowers us to keep God’s Law, we have believed a lie that will have the opposite effect in our lives than the one we want. Life isn’t about keeping rules. It’s all about Him—about living in His love and allowing that love to pour out of us onto others. The Law keeps us looking at ourselves and constantly judging ourselves for our failures. Grace allows us to stay focused on Christ and empowers us to express His life and love to everybody else. Which way do you want to live?

McVey, Steve (2011-02-01). 52 Lies Heard in Church Every Sunday (pp. 188-190). Harvest House Publishers. Kindle Edition.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I wonder if you see all your inconsistencies? No, probably not.

You say you believe God fixes us but then no He doesn't if you hold on to your sin.
Yes, this is why Jesus told us to repent. Repentance is context to turning from your evil ways. For Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgement against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If we were to look at Jonah 3, we can see they turned from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Jesus had a dim view of sin. He never condoned it. Not once. Neither did any of the apostles. The idea that God forgives you despite your sin is foreign to Scripture. It says rather, if you do not forgive, then you will not be forgiven.

And then after all the disqualifications of our own work you say you don't believe we fix ourselves.
The works is not our own because it is God who does the work in the believer. We are nothing and Christ is everything. So it is Christ that fixes us, but we must yield to Christ and the work He wants to do in us.

God won't fix us unless we do this or that?
Sin has always been separation from God and it requires us to repent of our sins and to forsake them; Otherwise we will not be forgiven.

List of Verses on Sin is Separation From God.

What happened to Ephesians 2:8-9???
Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are still 100% true. We are not saved by works. We are saved by his mercy and the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. We are given a free gift. However, we are saved by grace thru faith, though. And James says faith without works is dead. Hebrews chapter 11 defines faith as having action. So we can see faith is not a mental acknowledgement alone because the demons also believe and tremble. Then how are we not saved by works if James says we are saved by works? Well, because God does the work within you. You don't do the work. Salvation is all God.... both in Justification (Initial Salvation) and in Sanctification (in continuing to walk and abide in Christ). We are not saved by works because if a believer sins in their walk, they do not get their heart right with God by going out and doing a good work. They get their heart right with God by confessing their sin to the Lord so as to be cleansed and forgiven of their sin. So Jesus is the Savior. He retains all the glory as being one's Heavenly High Priest. Confessing sin is not a work because it is simply going to the Savior to be forgiven. One is throwing themselves down at the mercy of the Lord and trusting in His grace and mercy in order to be forgiven. One is not trusting in a certain action or performance on their part to be forgiven.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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The Law of God is one of the most misunderstood parts of the Bible. Some people believe that Jesus lives in us to equip us to keep the Law of God. “Jesus fulfills the Law through me as I trust Him,” you may hear them say. Truthfully, I used to teach this myself and have even written in earlier books that as Christ lives His life through us we will fulfill the Law without even having to focus on it. It made sense to me until I began to look more closely at what the Scripture says about the subject. (We are all growing in grace, even authors who write about it!) The problem I came to see with this viewpoint is that it still leaves us in a relationship to the Law. It simply changes from a negative one to a positive one. What the Bible actually teaches, however, is that you and I have no relationship to the Law—neither positive nor negative. The Law has nothing to do with us. It’s important to understand God’s original purpose in giving the Law. Reading about the early history of man after the Creation recorded in Genesis, you notice that for centuries there was no law given to the human race. Then God selected Abram (Abraham) to begin a new work. From Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob and his sons came the 12 tribes of Israel. They go down to live in Egypt, as a result of Joseph’s journey there. Finally, in response to the people’s cries for deliverance, God selects Moses as His leader to take Israel back to the Promised Land. There, on the way to Canaan, God calls Moses to meet with Him on Mount Sinai, and He presents the covenant known as the Law of Moses (Exodus 19). The many chapters that follow—through Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy—spell out the details of what was also known as the old covenant, the constitution of God’s relationship with Israel. That covenant stayed in effect until the new covenant was inaugurated by the death of Jesus Christ. Why did God give Israel the Law? Many think the Law was given to squelch sin among the people, but the real reason was very different.

For what purpose do you think the Law was given? Do you think it was given so that the trespasses in people’s lives might be decreased? The apostle Paul explains why God gave the Law to Israel. He wrote, “The Law came in so that the transgression would increase” (Romans 5:20). That biblical fact comes as a surprise to many people. God didn’t give the Law to stop sin among His people but rather to stimulate it! What possible reason would He have in doing such a thing? It was so that the people would come to see their sinfulness and abandon the misguided notion that their own moral character would ever be enough to achieve acceptance by God. The basis of God’s acceptance of humanity has never been our own goodness. But it has always been because of His grace. By stimulating sin in the people’s lives, the Law would cause them to see how much they needed grace. This was a perfect situation because Paul went on to say, “But where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). Man’s sin increased, and God’s grace increased. Grace could not respond to the sense of self-righteousness that trapped Israel—but it would overtake and overshadow their sinfulness once they saw and admitted it. That’s how it still works today, even among Gentiles (non-Jews) who try to keep religious rules as a way of gaining God’s favor. Although the Law wasn’t given to the Gentiles, it will do the same thing to you that it was intended to do in the lives of the Jewish nation of Israel when it was given to them. In another New Testament passage, Paul described the Law as a tutor that came to lead them to Christ so that they would be justified by faith (see Galatians 3:24). So the Law was given to Israel to show them their sinfulness and their inability to earn acceptance by God through works. How, then, could we rightfully think that Jesus Christ lives inside us to help us keep the Law? Jesus Christ didn’t come to help us keep the Law. He came to fulfill the Law on our behalf and to deliver us from the Law system altogether! Romans 10:4 says, “Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” We don’t even need to keep the Law today because we have the fulfillment of the Law living in us, and He has taken us away from all that! Note that I didn’t say we break it. I said we don’t keep it. Again, we have no relationship to the Law whatsoever. Jesus has no intention to help you keep God’s Law, but that’s not all. He also wants you to know that you make a serious mistake when you focus on the Law at all. Your focus is to be on Him, not a set of rules that you imagine God requires of you. Your Father has no rule-keeping requirements for you! Jesus has ended that whole system. The Bible plainly says that “you are not under law but under grace” (Romans 6:14) and that “now we have been released from the law” (Romans 7:6). Trying to live in the Law system is a misguided effort regardless of how sincere it may be. You don’t have to do anything to earn your Father’s acceptance. The Father accepts Jesus, and because you are in Him, you are as accepted by God the Father as Jesus Christ Himself! (See Ephesians 1:6.) Sometimes those of us who teach of our freedom from the Law will cause critics to suggest that we are antinomian—a word that means “against the Law.” My contention is that they are against the Law because they deny its biblical purpose under the old covenant and want to turn it into a moral code for living today. Trying to live by the Law is a curse because nobody can do it, but we don’t have to do it! The Bible plainly says that “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law” (Galatians 3:13). To try to live by religious rules today is to try to put yourself right back under that curse! The Scripture says, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse” (Galatians 3:10). So the lie that Jesus empowers us to fulfill the Law of God suggests that Jesus came in to us to put us under a curse! Paul told the church at Rome, “Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4). Religious rules can never produce fruit. They only produce religious nuts! However, a lifestyle lived out of union with the Christ who dwells within us produces authentic spiritual fruit that honors God.

If you’ve been taught that your relationship with God needs to stay focused on behaving in the right way, the idea that you don’t have to live by religious rules anymore may be a little scary at first. Be assured that I’m not suggesting here that behavior isn’t important. The truth is that if you want your behavior to honor your Father, it won’t happen by trying to keep religious rules. In fact, the Bible says that religious rules actually arouse sinful desires in you. Romans 7:5 says that sinful passions are “aroused by the Law.” Does it make sense that Jesus would empower you to focus on the Law when the Bible says the Law stimulates sin? Our focus is to be Christ Himself, not a system of rules that we wrongly imagine God is expecting us to use as a code for living. Jesus is our source of living, and His life within us is more than enough to ensure that the actions in our lifestyle honor the Father. If we have believed that Christ empowers us to keep God’s Law, we have believed a lie that will have the opposite effect in our lives than the one we want. Life isn’t about keeping rules. It’s all about Him—about living in His love and allowing that love to pour out of us onto others. The Law keeps us looking at ourselves and constantly judging ourselves for our failures. Grace allows us to stay focused on Christ and empowers us to express His life and love to everybody else. Which way do you want to live?

McVey, Steve (2011-02-01). 52 Lies Heard in Church Every Sunday (pp. 188-190). Harvest House Publishers. Kindle Edition.
Sin existed before the Law. For God destroyed the world with a global flood because of sin. One of their sins is that their thoughts were evil continually. The Scriptures say....sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Joseph refused to commit adultery with Potiphar's wife. He knew it was wrong. Cain killed his own brother and God even warned Cain ahead of time that if he does not do well then sin lies at the door. So God was warning Cain not to sin. Adam and Eve broke God's Command that forbid them to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. None of these command were written down. Yet, they existed before the written Law. In other words, God's Laws even existed before the Law of Moses.

Yes, I understand some folks seek to be justified by the Law and or in law keeping in and of itself alone. But that is not the case. We are made right with God by repenting of our sins and accepting Jesus Christ as our savior by faith. We are made right by his blood and having faith in what He has done for us. However, this kind of faith that saves is always followed by works, though (That proves that it is a true faith). If one does not bear forth fruit and one does not live holy for God then they have to examine whether or not Christ is within them or not unless they be reprobates.

Paul says we establish the Law. Not the Law of Moses, but the Law of Christ. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2).

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:4-8).

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:10).

Side Note:

As for Romans chapter 7:

Paul was talking about his experience as a Jew trying to be justified by the Law of Moses before he became a Christian. This is evident by the fact that Romans 7:14 he says he is sold under sin and then in Romans 8:2 he is free from sin. In other words, there is a difference between trying to be justified by the Law alone versus establishing God's Laws. God cannot be against His own Laws or Commands that He has given to us in the New Testament. For why would God give us Commands if we did not intend to obey them?
 
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Feb 7, 2013
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Ok now that I have your attention I want to put a challenge to every user of CC. It feels to me as if I say the following verses at least once a day:

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

My challenge to you is where in the Bible do we find a verse stating that we have salvation through keeping the law? It would be really interesting to see if somebody can show me that? What I did find was that YHWH and Yeshua said that if we love them we will keep their commandments (Because God is the same……) but surely this can’t be right?! What about Abraham, Moses and all these Old Testament heroes? They were saved by keeping the Law? Let the Word of God explain the word of God.

Hebrews 11 is called by some people the book of faith and by reading Hebrews 11 we see something interesting:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Not once did I read by keeping the law Abraham did this or by keeping the law Moses did that. Guys we are missing the plot completely. We are so caught up in this discussion between law and grace that we are missing God and the simplicity of His Word.

Salvation was always by faith and relationship. God called Moses His friend, when the angel speaked to Daniel he said to him that God loves him. How do you love somebody? Through relationship. Moses knew Yeshua, David knew Yeshua, Jeremiah an Isaiah knew Yeshua. What does Yeshua mean? Salvation. They understood salvation.

What a blessing to know God is the same since the beginning of time. We serve an awesome God and He has never changed.
What about the saying of JESUS written in the New Covenant/Testament, whom we in faith 'confess' we 'believe' in HIM, but whether one want to forget HIS every words/teachings from the 'Gospels to the Revelation' and have 'faith in all of them too as it is written and to put them into action faith, even in submission and obedience their knowledge of 'spiritual morality', as Kingdom redeemed people in togetherness and thankfulness to their GOD, their 'Savior', to prove to HIM one has truly 'repented' from their sins.

Please for now if you are not a 'lawless' one, we do not 'challenge' GOD's lambs and sheep, but rather through AGAPE knowledge faith and repentance, we 'built up' our own family instead.

Thank you and may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Is a person "right" or "wrong"? As soon as you want this idea, you know things have gone bad.
As followers of Jesus we are commanded to love, not name call, or condemn or see evil where there is none.
Peoples theology changes as they see different aspects of the world around us, so the calvinist view may be right as well as the armenian, because it depends on your perspective and insecurities. But the fruit of the spirit is love, patience, self control, so other than condemning actual sin, hurting a fellow brother is itself a problem and indicative of deeper issues which are not about faith but emotional stability.
I have two daughters who if I say "hello" it is in the wrong way at the wrong time etc. Christians can just as easily end up in this emotional washing machine, and those caught up in this are wasting their time and energy chasing ghosts.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is what it is.. calling a spade a spade.. sorry.. if that offends some then okay.. I'm not here to please man.. noooo sorry.. I'm here to please the One who Called me and Saved my by His Grace... not my works.. indeed
just remember, he has till he dies to repent, as long as he is alive there is always hope. God does not give up anyone. look at saul. Saul was like Jason, and converted and became paul.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I see he never did answer crossnote's question. Typical. when they have a question which causes them to think or at least question, they run and hide from it. like it is not there.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,732
6,319
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yes, e.g. I asked another well-known " perfect person" a question a few days ago. I got silence. funny how quiet they get when you make them stop pounding their man-made theology and actually read some of the parts of the Word that they normally do not.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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in all honesty Jason.. you do despite unto the Spirit of Grace, and you blaspheme the Holy Ghost, calling the Work of the Spirit of Grace in my life and others on here 'evil'. sorry that will never be forgiven... sorry.. you have SEALED your fate.


2 Tim 2.24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, [SUP]25 [/SUP]with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive [SUP][i][/SUP]by him to do his will.

Gal 5.22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Sin has always been separation from God and it requires us to repent of our sins and to forsake them; Otherwise we will not be forgiven.
Its easy to get things backward. Lots of people do. You can't forgive until you've been forgiven. You can't love until you've been loved.

Sin is separation from God. But you can't come to Christ unless you have hope you are already forgiven. That is faith in Christ.

All of our hope is in Christ and none of it is in our abilities to repent or cause any of the fruit of Salvation.

All of it is a gift. Repentance, Grace, Faith, Obedience. What is there that is not freely given by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

Even our works are a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:4-10
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Did Paul repent of his sins in order to come to Christ? Or was he drawn to repentance after he came to Christ?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Its easy to get things backward. Lots of people do. You can't forgive until you've been forgiven. You can't love until you've been loved.

Sin is separation from God. But you can't come to Christ unless you have hope you are already forgiven. That is faith in Christ.

All of our hope is in Christ and none of it is in our abilities to repent or cause any of the fruit of Salvation.

All of it is a gift. Repentance, Grace, Faith, Obedience. What is there that is not freely given by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

Even our works are a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:4-10
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Did Paul repent of his sins in order to come to Christ? Or was he drawn to repentance after he came to Christ?
Paul talks about repentance in 2 Corinthians 7. He says, Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation. Again, Jesus defines repentance for us when he says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to look at Jonah chapter 3, it talks about how they turned from their evil ways. Jesus tells the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Jesus first words within his ministry was to.... "repent." So no. Repentance is a necessary for salvation.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
Colossians 2:13...we have been forgiven all our sins.
I'll wait on your verse. Would you deny...?

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The above is true correct? That's my only point.
========================================================

we have to take this scripture in the context or take it with Romans 3:25.
'Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood,
to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past
for the forbearance of God.'

HEBREWS 7:25.
'because He ever lives to make intercession for us.'

again, IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us.' -
this is speaking to the already converted.

Christ's death reconciles us to God, but His life saves us...

why in the world would our Saviour set Himself up at the right hand of the Father
to make intercession for us If we were already forgiven for future sins.

Colossians 2:12 gives the 'context' and 'time' of the 'past sins' being forgiven -
it is to the 'new believer'.
it says, 'buried with Him in baptism'..
this is why our Saviour is our Saviour/Mediator - and we also have to 'approach' Him boldly
that we may be saved by His life, because He ever lives to make 'intercession' for us all...
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Something I heard this morning that I wanted to share:

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed
The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed

Have a blessed day
Danie
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Its easy to get things backward. Lots of people do. You can't forgive until you've been forgiven. You can't love until you've been loved.
I agree with your statement on love.
"We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:9

The forgiving one I cannot grasp as you stated. The following scripture is why I have a problem accepting this process that you are presenting concerning forgiveness.

"Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." Matthew 5:24
"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Matthew 6:12

"As we forgive" indicates a process of events that lead to God's forgiveness of us. We reconcile first, and then our gift is accepted.

"And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.

First reconcile and make an amends and then acceptance and forgiveness is given from God the Almighty One.

Do you have scripture that indicates these scriptures are in reverse?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Its easy to get things backward. Lots of people do. You can't forgive until you've been forgiven.
Oh I ran upon one more statement of Jesus that I'd like to share.

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" Matthew 6:14

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.