Keeping the law = Salvation (Right???)

[eternally-gratefull]

The difference is whether one is in REBELLION or not. That is the DISTINCTION. The sins of rebellion are people once again spitting on Christ. Do you not get the type and shadows of the OT? Why are the same sins that under the Mosaic law the PENALTY was death and not a sacrifice are the VERY SAME SINS that are SPECIFICALLY LISTED as the same sins in which one CAN NOT ENTER into the kingdom of heaven? The sacrifices that were required of the people were for certain specific sins and the sacrifice that high priest did on the day of atonement COVERED all the other sins of Israel once a year,but all the sins that the death penalty was required were NEVER COVERED under the Mosaic law BY A SACRIFICE.

It is a HUGE DISTINCTION between sins of rebellion and other sins of falling short or stumbling due to human frailties and short comings. Those we continue to do and we need to keep over coming those.

so saul. who did not think he rebelled. but did everything he did because of his love for God. would have made it to heaven if jesus did not confront him on the road?

your being to narrow minded in my view. religious people do not rebell on purpose. they do what they think God wants them to do with full assurance they are right. thats why a false gospel is so dangerous.

they rebel because they remain in unbelief of the true gospel.

 

[SarahM777]

so saul. who did not think he rebelled. but did everything he did because of his love for God. would have made it to heaven if jesus did not confront him on the road?

your being to narrow minded in my view. religious people do not rebell on purpose. they do what they think God wants them to do with full assurance they are right. thats why a false gospel is so dangerous.

they rebel because they remain in unbelief of the true gospel.

Paul did not REMAIN or go INTO REBELLION.

 

[Jason0047]

I believe ALL my sins are forgiven.

Yet, the Bible does not teach that, though. 1 John 2:1 says we are to sin not, but if we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ; 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin. 1 John 1:7 says, For if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin.

I believe I cannot attain sinlessness in this life.

Again, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. 1 Peter 4:1 says believers can cease from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus tells us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. The author of Hebrews says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

Yet, I do not believe I can sin without God's chastisement in bringing me back to repentance without which I would perish.

John lists sins that a person cannot commit that leads unto the second death. These sins apply to both the believer and unbeliever. We know this because Scripture tells us to continue in His goodness otherwise we will be cut off like the Jews were cut off. Scripture also says that if any man draws back His soul will have no pleasure in him. Scripture also says if anyone sins willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

...Your logic does not follow.

Well, my friend.... your logic cannot be illustrated in the Bible and neither can your logic be illustrated by way of a real world example, either.

 

[Miri]

Way hey, I'm wading into the big boys conversation now! Oops this will be a long un.

Can I give you my thoughts from a different approach. I am going to avoid quoting
scripture as it has mostly been quoted by others and I would only end up repeating it.

I think law and grace compliment each other wonderfully. The law dictated a price
had to be paid for the sin of mankind (just as there is a price to pay when a crime is committed).
Jesus paid the price for that sin (that crime if you like) on our behalf and grace now abounds
towards all those who will accept his free gift. In other words the sentence of death has been
taken up by Jesus on our behalf and the law of sin and death has been paid in full.

The law of sin and death was not nullified, but rather Jesus paid the price for us.
No one goes to hell any more because of their sin, but rather because they refuse and reject the free
gift of Jesus! I know, you are now scratching heads and thinking that's wrong - but hear me out.


It's like (and this is a very loose analogy), I buy you a ticket to get into a concert, but you refuse
to accept the ticket and so don't take it off me. What then, well either you don't get to go to the
concert, or you will have to buy your own ticket, but the price is far too high for you. The ticket which
would get you in free still exists but you have rejected it.

You can pretend to accept the ticket by telling everyone you have one if you like, but that does not
mean you have actually accepted the ticket from me, it just means you are deceiving yourself.

There are many who genuinely accept that free ticket, that grace freely paid for and given to us as
a gift.

There are many more who refuse it outright.

Then there are those in the middle ground who appear to have accepted that ticket but haven't
really and continue to live life as if they have no grace, no free gift of salvation.
Another analogy, instead they talk about the ticket, what colour it is, what type of paper it is
printed on etc, but they have never accepted the real thing for themselves.
They can deceive themselves, they can even deceive others, but they cannot deceive God who
looks on the heart.

Such people are playing a very dangerous game and if they fully understood
what was at stake, they would seek God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength etc.

Jesus says I know my sheep and they know me!

I honestly think there will be a lot of surprises in eternity. Some people who were believed to
be devoted Christians will not be there, while others, who people thought "no way" will be
living with Jesus for eternity.

Only Jesus can fully know the heart of a person. Just because a person does things wrong
does not mean they are not forgiven. Look at the life of David for example, he was God's
worship leader of the bible, look at the adultery and murder he conspired to, then look at him
crying out for forgiveness.

On the other hand look at the Pharasees, Jesues said they were like white washed tombs
full of dead men's bones. They were squeaky clean on the outside (bet they had good
washing powder), but inside they knew and understood nothing of the grace of God.


A dream I want to share with you - I know some of you have now switched off but I feel
God showed me an important thing via this dream. I merely set it out for you to
draw your own conclusions.


Some time ago I had a dream in which I was with the worship team from church. We had
gone out for the day into the countryside. At one point we were all standing in a circle
on muddy ground praying together.

As we stood together like this an unknown man wearing white with a long stick or cane
of some description came and began to prod the mud inbetween us and around us. Blood
came bubbling out of the holes and started to get higher. It did not feel unclean or
disgusting, rather it flowed like water. I then realised in the dream that we had
been standing on a river and the mud was the river bed. The blood started off
ankle deep but began to get higher. Fish were swimming in this river of blood

I then started to have a secondary dream within the dream, in which I was back at
church and I was explaining the meaning of this dream to the group. I was telling
them that we carry this blood with us wherever we go. God sees this blood
covering us like an umbrella almost. He sees we are covered by the blood of the
lamb. Then I woke up!

I have spent much time pondering over this dream and it makes perfect sense to me
on so many levels. During the passover, the Israelites were covered by the blood
of a lamb, the angel passed over them on seeing the blood. As Christians we do not
need to hide ourselves away in houses for we carry the blood of Jesus with us wherever we go
for we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and Jesus knows us. He knows his sheep.


See also Ezekial 47 after I had this dream I started to look in the bible. It had been
some time since I had read Ezekial 47, but it is all there , the river the man, the fish.

I suppose the questions is, how deep are we willing to go.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Jason0047]

Paul did not REMAIN or go INTO REBELLION.

Many are confused to think Paul struggled with sin as a Christian in Romans 7. Yet, this was Paul speaking from his perspective as a Jew who kept the Law before he was a Christian, though. This is evident by the fact that Romans 7:14 says he is sold under sin and yet he says the exact opposite in Romans 8:2 when he said that he is free from sin.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Are you getting that from a passage in the Bible or did you just pull that off the top of your head (with no actual basis on any actual verse)?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nevertheless I tell you the Truth; It is Expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.
And when He is come, He will Reprove the world of sin, and of Righteousness, and of Judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Whatsoever is not of faith is Sin. Romans 14

Very evident Jason you have and Teach Christ + more.... Im not the only one who sees that ... the FACT THAT YE do this, is the manifestation of your UN BELIEF .. which is Sin..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unto the Pure all things are Pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing Pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

They Profess that they know God; but in Works they Deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Indeed, and what is the Initial Work of God , that leads to Salvation, that Ye believe on Him whom the Father Sent.. and His Work of Grace on the Tree Sufficient without any more man made merits added to that.. in your Christ + more.. ye deny the One you claim to know.. very very evident.. indeed..

btw.. your blasphemy and railing is noted.. indeed! 'doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace'... very very evident..

 

[Miri]

Sorry one other thing, on the matter of wrong doing. I believe we are to keep short accounts and that the Holy Spirit convicts us when this happens and brings things to mind so we can say sorry. This does not mean that every time we do something wrong we go to hell, as the price for SIN (singular) has been paid in full.

But rather by keeping short accounts it means we do not quench the Holy Spirit and we can maintain that close
walk with Jesus. It is a life long learning curve for us all

God bless
x

 

[Jason0047]

Way hey, I'm wading into the big boys conversation now! Oops this will be a long un.

Can I give you my thoughts from a different approach. I am going to avoid quoting
scripture as it has mostly been quoted by others and I would only end up repeating it.

I think law and grace compliment each other wonderfully. The law dictated a price
had to be paid for the sin of mankind (just as there is a price to pay when a crime is committed).
Jesus paid the price for that sin (that crime if you like) on our behalf and grace now abounds
towards all those who will accept his free gift. In other words the sentence of death has been
taken up by Jesus on our behalf and the law of sin and death has been paid in full.

The law of sin and death was not nullified, but rather Jesus paid the price for us.
No one goes to hell any more because of their sin, but rather because they refuse and reject the free
gift of Jesus! I know, you are now scratching heads and thinking that's wrong - but hear me out.


It's like (and this is a very loose analogy), I buy you a ticket to get into a concert, but you refuse
to accept the ticket and so don't take it off me. What then, well either you don't get to go to the
concert, or you will have to buy your own ticket, but the price is far too high for you. The ticket which
would get you in free still exists but you have rejected it.

You can pretend to accept the ticket by telling everyone you have one if you like, but that does not
mean you have actually accepted the ticket from me, it just means you are deceiving yourself.

There are many who genuinely accept that free ticket, that grace freely paid for and given to us as
a gift.

There are many more who refuse it outright.

Then there are those in the middle ground who appear to have accepted that ticket but haven't
really and continue to live life as if they have no grace, no free gift of salvation.
Another analogy, instead they talk about the ticket, what colour it is, what type of paper it is
printed on etc, but they have never accepted the real thing for themselves.
They can deceive themselves, they can even deceive others, but they cannot deceive God who
looks on the heart.

Such people are playing a very dangerous game and if they fully understood
what was at stake, they would seek God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength etc.

Jesus says I know my sheep and they know me!

I honestly think there will be a lot of surprises in eternity. Some people who were believed to
be devoted Christians will not be there, while others, who people thought "no way" will be
living with Jesus for eternity.

Only Jesus can fully know the heart of a person. Just because a person does things wrong
does not mean they are not forgiven. Look at the life of David for example, he was God's
worship leader of the bible, look at the adultery and murder he conspired to, then look at him
crying out for forgiveness.

On the other hand look at the Pharasees, Jesues said they were like white washed tombs
full of dead men's bones. They were squeaky clean on the outside (bet they had good
washing powder), but inside they knew and understood nothing of the grace of God.


A dream I want to share with you - I know some of you have now switched off but I feel
God showed me an important thing via this dream. I merely set it out for you to
draw your own conclusions.


Some time ago I had a dream in which I was with the worship team from church. We had
gone out for the day into the countryside. At one point we were all standing in a circle
on muddy ground praying together.

As we stood together like this an unknown man wearing white with a long stick or cane
of some description came and began to prod the mud inbetween us and around us. Blood
came bubbling out of the holes and started to get higher. It did not feel unclean or
disgusting, rather it flowed like water. I then realised in the dream that we had
been standing on a river and the mud was the river bed. The blood started off
ankle deep but began to get higher. Fish were swimming in this river of blood

I then started to have a secondary dream within the dream, in which I was back at
church and I was explaining the meaning of this dream to the group. I was telling
them that we carry this blood with us wherever we go. God sees this blood
covering us like an umbrella almost. He sees we are covered by the blood of the
lamb. Then I woke up!

I have spent much time pondering over this dream and it makes perfect sense to me
on so many levels. During the passover, the Israelites were covered by the blood
of a lamb, the angel passed over them on seeing the blood. As Christians we do not
need to hide ourselves away in houses for we carry the blood of Jesus with us wherever we go
for we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and Jesus knows us. He knows his sheep.


See also Ezekial 47 after I had this dream I started to look in the bible. It had been
some time since I had read Ezekial 47, but it is all there , the river the man, the fish.

I suppose the questions is, how deep are we willing to go.

Hope this makes sense.

I disagree with the first part you wrote about how no believer needs to go to Hell because of sin. Yet, I agreed with the second part of what you wrote about those who think they can sin and still be saved. The problem I see in the first part of what you said is that you think sin now is not separation from God for beleivers. Nowhere does the Bible teach this. Sin has always been separation between God the Father and man. Jesus (i.e. the second person of the Godhead) is the only mediator between God and man if a person does sin. He is our high priest for a reason. 1 John 1:9 essentially says we are forgiven of sin IF..... IF.... we confess our sins. 1 John 1:7 essentially says we are cleansed of all sin by his blood IF..... IF... we walk in the light as he is in the light.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul did not REMAIN or go INTO REBELLION.

Paul was never in rebelion in his own mind. He thought even killing Christians was ok. because he was doing Gods will.

What makes him any different than Jason here, or those like him?

 

[MarcR]

so saul. who did not think he rebelled. but did everything he did because of his love for God. would have made it to heaven if jesus did not confront him on the road?

your being to narrow minded in my view. religious people do not rebell on purpose. they do what they think God wants them to do with full assurance they are right. thats why a false gospel is so dangerous.

they rebel because they remain in unbelief of the true gospel.

EG,

The OT saints were saved by a forward looking faith in the same Savior who purchased our redemption.

Faith is less concerned with whether we rebel in our ignorance than with whether we confess and repent when it is pointed out to us. When a believer rebels the Holy Spirit within us will prompt us to confess and repent; But, sometimes it takes Him a while to get our attention


1 Co 5:1-5
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Many are confused to think Paul struggled with sin as a Christian in Romans 7. Yet, this was Paul speaking from his perspective as a Jew who kept the Law before he was a Christian, though. This is evident by the fact that Romans 7:14 says he is sold under sin and yet he says the exact opposite in Romans 8:2 when he said that he is free from sin.

Yet Paul used first person present tense words. Not past tense. Even your own supposed inspired KJV makes this clear.

Paul could not do for God period as a jew, everything he did was sin. so paul could not be talking about a struggle he had before conversion. Because it was AT conversion he repented and realized everything he did was sin.

so two facts which destroy your theory,

 

[Jason0047]

Sorry one other thing, on the matter of wrong doing. I believe we are to keep short accounts and that the Holy Spirit convicts us when this happens and brings things to mind so we can say sorry. This does not mean that every time we do something wrong we go to hell, as the price for SIN (singular) has been paid in full.

But rather by keeping short accounts it means we do not quench the Holy Spirit and we can maintain that close
walk with Jesus. It is a life long learning curve for us all

God bless
x

When a beleiver refuses to repent or confess of their sin and queches the Spirit, the Lord (i.e. the Godhead) will then withdraw from them and they will lose their salvation. For Christ (God) is the source of their salvation (1 John 5:12).

 

[crossnote]

Yet, the Bible does not teach that, though. 1 John 2:1 says we are to sin not, but if we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ; 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin. 1 John 1:7 says, For if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin.



Again, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. 1 Peter 4:1 says believers can cease from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus tells us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. The author of Hebrews says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).



John lists sins that a person cannot commit that leads unto the second death. These sins apply to both the believer and unbeliever. We know this because Scripture tells us to continue in His goodness otherwise we will be cut off like the Jews were cut off. Scripture also says that if any man draws back His soul will have no pleasure in him. Scripture also says if anyone sins willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sin.



Well, my friend.... your logic cannot be illustrated in the Bible and neither can your logic be illustrated by way of a real world example, either.

You are in complete denial of the Gospel...

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Which sins have you not been forgiven?

 

[oldthennew]

bottom line,

you can produce wood, hay, or stubble, or precious jewels, silver or gold,
you shall be rewarded according to your 'works'!

but,
it is up to you whether you want to be a janitor or a king in -
the Kingdom of God.

saved by Grace -
rewarded by works -

it's no more complicated that this....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,

The OT saints were saved by a forward looking faith in the same Savior who purchased our redemption.

Faith is less concerned with whether we rebel in our ignorance than with whether we confess and repent when it is pointed out to us. When a believer rebels the Holy Spirit within us will prompt us to confess and repent; But, sometimes it takes Him a while to get our attention


1 Co 5:1-5
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

true, even we in Christ should never get so puffed up that because we do not do these sins, we are ok. it is when we think we are ok that satan comes in and takes us down. We need to ALWAYS come to God in humility. thats why legalism is so dangerous, even to those who have come to true faith, because it either forces us to lie to ourselves and makes us useless to God. or admit defeat and walk away.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Yet, the Bible does not teach that, though. 1 John 2:1 says we are to sin not, but if we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ; 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin. 1 John 1:7 says, For if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin.



Again, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. 1 Peter 4:1 says believers can cease from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus tells us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. The author of Hebrews says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).



John lists sins that a person cannot commit that leads unto the second death. These sins apply to both the believer and unbeliever. We know this because Scripture tells us to continue in His goodness otherwise we will be cut off like the Jews were cut off. Scripture also says that if any man draws back His soul will have no pleasure in him. Scripture also says if anyone sins willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sin.



Well, my friend.... your logic cannot be illustrated in the Bible and neither can your logic be illustrated by way of a real world example, either.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the Same Mind: for he/she that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1 Peter 4

when you suffer as a Genuine convert Jason, in the flesh, which means ye are Crucified with Him, daily, suffering for the Sake of Righteousness..... I know Daily what this is like... oh indeed..... when you get to this point... then you contact me. for Right now.. you are about as Far away from Christ Crucified as a man wants to be.. very dangerous....

 

[Jason0047]

You are in complete denial of the Gospel...

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Which sins have you not been forgiven?

Did you notice how you didn't even address the verses I brought up but yet you just quoted a verse that appears to support your Theology instead?.However, it does not say future sin is forgiven you. Being forgiven of all trespasses is in context to past sin and not future sin. We know this because it talks about how we used to be sinners and that those who still sin have the wrath of God abiding on them in the next chapter.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. (Colossians 3:5-7).

 

[Miri]

I disagree with the first part you wrote about how no believer needs to go to Hell because of sin. Yet, I agreed with the second part of what you wrote about those who think they can sin and still be saved. The problem I see in the first part of what you said is that you think sin now is not separation from God for beleivers. Nowhere does the Bible teach this. Sin has always been separation between God the Father and man. Jesus (i.e. the second person of the Godhead) is the only mediator between God and man if a person does sin. He is our high priest for a reason. 1 John 1:9 essentially says we are forgiven of sin IF..... IF.... we confess our sins. 1 John 1:7 essentially says we are cleansed of all sin by his blood IF..... IF... we walk in the light as he is in the light.

Maybe I didn't put it across very well I know it was a long post.

What I meant is that no one need go to hell any more because of their sin, as Jesus has paid the price for them.
The problem is if they reject Jesus, the corner stone, then they are in big trouble because they cannot pay the price
for their own sin and live.

So in essence they go to hell because they reject the free gift of salvation, death has lost its sting but they reject
the antidote etc.

 

[Jason0047]

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the Same Mind: for he/she that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1 Peter 4

when you suffer as a Genuine convert Jason, in the flesh, which means ye are Crucified with Him, daily, suffering for the Sake of Righteousness..... I know Daily what this is like... oh indeed..... when you get to this point... then you contact me. for Right now.. you are about as Far away from Christ Crucified as a man wants to be.. very dangerous....

But yet, are saying you don't believe the part of the verse that says that the believer who suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin? Do you not believe that a believer cannot stop sinning? Which is it?

Why do you appear to be attacking me showing you what the Word of God says plainly?

 

[crossnote]

Did you notice how you didn't even address the verses I brought up but yet you just quoted a verse that appears to support your Theology instead?.However, it does not say future sin is forgiven you. Being forgiven of all trespasses is in context to past sin and not future sin. We know this because it talks about how we used to be sinners and that those who still sin have the wrath of God abiding on them in the next chapter.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. (Colossians 3:5-7).

You denied that Christ has forgiven all our sins, so I responded with...

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Have you changed your mind or do you continue to twist Scripture? ALL SIN, ALL, ALL.