pottersclay, Magenta
the link leads to a review of the book from strobel "the case for christ". it analyses in depth what argument are presented in the book and points to problems in reasoning and logical fallacies, ommissions and plain mistakes. that's why I'm not impressed with strobel, he doesn't strike me as a good apologist if there is such a thing as a good apologist. I'm more impressed, although not convinced, by people like WL craig or plantinga, not by charlatans like strobel. I'm also impressed by good scholarship, documented research, serious arguments, undeniable evidence and such. i find more of those in the agnostic, atheist, scientific literature than in the christian apologist literature. i also think i have provided more of it here on this thread that you both.
You can not possibly expect me to come here as an agnostic and hear you tell me you "just know" you are right and that the bible is the word of God and all the sudden believe you. i didn't come to be converted, i came to be convinced, you have failed to convince me, what can i say? you don't believe i can be convinced but i think it is because you seem to use the word convince instead of the word converted, like if they were the same. they are not. to convince you have to make a good case for it, and for that you need to question everything and let truth fall where it falls. you guys don't do that, you just accept a truth and then pretend you "know". that lead to error, i don't want to do that. pride has nothing to do with it, intelectual honesty has. I can't just take your word for it, surely you understand that.
i think it is important to look at both sides of any issue before reaching a conlcusion, something you both don't seem to agree with. Fine, but you have no ground to claim knowledge about anything if you do not have the intelectual honestly to consider opposing views with the possibility they might be correct. you are just showing your confirmation bias and close mindedness if you refuse to look at what the other side says and start from the principle that they must be wrong.
"Why do the heathen rage is beyond me."
have i raged? i asked questions, i offered critics of the answers, i never raged...i don't feel rage, i feel bafflement and also a bit of frustration. i don't understand how you can not see the flaws in your reasoning and at the same time accuse me of making them. that's why i tried to get to the bottom of things, to try to understand how you think and why you believe what you believe. i have found, and correct me if that is not right, that you are both presupositionalists, you hold the position that you can "know" God directly and that it trumps anything else anybody can say about the matter.
now you are entitled to think that, but you owe it to yourself to look into what other people say about taking that position, especially since most reputable thinkers, including christians, explain why it fails philosophicaly and how. otherwise you remain in error, you are in an intelectual black hole from where you don't see the outside and you think there is no outside. christianity might be true, but your way of finding out if it is the case is not valid. A lot of people are christians but not fundamentalists nor presupositionalists, because they accept that this is an untenable position. You don't need to abandon your faith, you need to make it stronger by believing for valid reason, you just have to find those reasons not reject the need for reasons.
