Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[Elin]

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


there is neither male nor female: Any of us who have children recognize that there are still distinctions and distinguishing characteristics between men and women; and I don't believe that God is unaware of them.

Therefore:

the only reading of verse 28 that makes sense is:

God does not show partiality or favoritism to Jews over gentiles, or to men over women, or to workers over bosses.

It does NOT mean that all distinctions have been removed or are unrecognized.

Agreed. . .it means they have no significance whatsoever or importance in matters eternal.

 

[JGIG]

Alright, time for some balance. DISCLAIMER: I have not read Stan Telchin's books. I would need to read his books and, specifically, examine his research methodology, surveys and results, and conclusions to have a fuller understanding of what JGIG is presenting here. However, after only examining JGIG's quotes and the conclusions JGIG is trying to draw, some things can be said.

Firstly, concerning Stan Telchin, let's not assume his work is purely objective. Most writers start off with a claim and end up with a book that supports that claim. They are often working to meet their pre-determined goal. If someone has a beef against the Messianic Jewish movement or Messianic Jewish congregations, or certain aspects thereof, then that's exactly what their book is going to end up saying. I have not read Telchin's books, but this isn't difficult to imagine. So here are some links to responses to one of his books which JGIG cites:

Irreconcilable Differences? part 1 - Jews for Jesus

DISCLAIMER: By posting a link from JFJ, I am not committing myself to agreeing to any measure of their mission or beliefs.

QUOTE: "Although Telchin repeatedly says he's not indicting the whole movement, he paints with a broad stroke, thereby giving a wide audience a distorted picture of the movement based primarily on the experiences of a few. Most of Telchin's argument is supported by anecdotes from those who've been hurt within the Messianic congregational movement."

QUOTE: "Telchin also presupposes that the majority of those in the Messianic congregational movement who use rabbinic forms are merely attempting to win the Jewish community's approval. He ignores the fact that many are actually attempting to find legitimate Jewish forms that do not contradict biblical principles."

To be fair, here is a JFJ review from a different perspective: Irreconcilable Differences? part 2 - Jews for Jesus

Secondly, just from what JGIG posted from his book, there are already indicators of what could be suspicious methodology, measurement errors, and false conclusions. As to the first question, "How are Jews being reached with the Gospel? What are Jews responding to?" -- what is the operational definition of the option labeled as "Jewish Roots"? If this is someone's own personal background, then it's very obvious why this wouldn't be high on the list. Jewish and Gentile background are not inherently things that would lead someone to the Messiah. If the Hebrew Roots / Messianic Jewish movement is meant, then it's even more understandable. This movement represents probably (and I'm estimating here) a fraction of a percent of congregations in the United States. One would expect the number of people reached by these movements would be equally low. Maybe he means something else by the term? It would be interesting to know. Either way, there are good reasons to expect it to be low on the list (explained in the next paragraph).

I have similarly informally surveyed or heard testimonies from Jewish members of the Messianic Jewish congregations that I have attended. Some of them were followers of the Messiah before attending the congregation, others after (i.e., the ministerial outreach effort to them was effective). Even these people, who choose to attend a Messianic congregation and consider themselves Torah observant, cite things like God/Christ/Holy Spirit, studying the Scriptures, testimony of believing friends and/or relatives, etc., as the primary reasons for accepting the Messiah. The reasoning is simple: They give the glory and honor to God and/or recognize those who personally reached out to them. And in their cases, things like the Jewishness of the Messiah, a Messianic congregation being a comfortable space for Jewish believers, and other similar things were often part of the ministering and outreach, and/or part of the reason they accepted the Messiah or decided to attend a Messianic congregation. Ultimately, we know it is the not us but the Spirit, but our witness and ministerial presentation is the practical point being discussed.

My point: Even people for whom these were things were part of the ministering and outreach, they are not necessarily going to list them as the most important factor that convinced them to accept the Messiah. Part of the package: yes. Most important factor cited: no, and for easily understandable reasons (especially in a survey format!). For example, someone who is presented the Jewishness of the Messiah from a friend can study the Scriptures to determine if this is indeed the truth, and then will cite "Scripture study" or "friend" as the most important factor, not "Jewish roots" or "Jewishness". If you want a better understanding of what led a Jew to the Messiah or to a Messianic congregation, you'll get a much fuller picture by talking to them, and interviews are a valid statistical methodology.

Thirdly, even Telchin admits different people are reached in different ways, so now he's talking about the practical aspect of outreach. Of course the Gospel message is the power unto salvation, as JGIG mentions. What is simply talking about Torah observance devoid of the Gospel message to a Torah observant Jew going to do? Convince them to keep doing what they are doing? Or even a secular Jew, for that matter? Convince them to start going to synagogue? The Gospel message must be the core. But let's not pretend here that things like Jewishness of the Messiah, a comfortable space for Jews to worship God in a Jewish manner, etc., are not important to some Jews. This idea that they must drop everything connected to their identity and become like the non-Jew is what holds some back from accepting the Messiah, let alone accepting what is perceived as a very foreign Messiah, under whose name their people have been persecuted or killed by non-Jewish "believers" for thousands of years.

The JFJ link above states: "Telchin fails to grasp what some in the Messianic congregational movement believe is God's mandate. Telchin would be the first to say that God wants a distinct Jewish people to exist until the end of time as a perpetual witness to His faithfulness. The question is, how will that distinction be made? The Messianic congregational movement answers by saying that to be distinct, we must live as Jews, and to some that means more than just eating bagels." AND "The job of the Messianic movement is to redeem that [Rabbinical Jewish] heritage through a biblical grid."

If you want to bring the Gospel to Jewish people, show them love and be a witness to what God has done in your life as a believer. Understanding their history, culture, concerns, fears, etc., can go a long way. Helping them recognize the Jewishness of the Messiah can be effective in connecting them to their Jewish Messiah. If you're from a Messianic congregation, letting them know a comfortable place exists for them to worship in a Jewish manner in connection to their heritage can also be an open and inviting door for them to experience the power of God through His Son. Is this necessary? No, but they can be helpful. If you want sources to help in this manner, there are books on Amazon, and Dr. Michael Brown is a leading Jewish evangelist on the topic of introducing Jews to the Messiah and answering Jewish objections to the Messiah.

And to JGIG, that's good for you that you've presented testimonials to support your view. But testimonials do not equate to truth. I can bring just as many testimonials from people who have found freedom and joy in the Messianic movement. Catholics can bring similar testimonies, etc. The imbalanced picture that you and others on this board present of Messianics being arrogant, self-righteous, unloving, or whatever you've all said so far, is a huge disservice and destructive to the body of believers. Those kinds of people exist outside of the Messianic movement, as well, and for me to make a statement about that would be equally useless. The Messianic movement includes many caring, loving people who genuinely worship God and demonstrate their love for others in meaningful and impactful ways. Your personal experiences do not dictate the truth of the matter, nor do they paint an accurate picture. My experience has been radically different and I have been involved in the movement for long enough. Likewise, my personal experiences do not dictate the truth but at least providing them helps paint a fuller picture than what you alone present. Are there problems with the Messianic movement and some people in it? Of course, but that can be said for the wider body of Christianity. And Telchin's survey results do not support your case against the Torah observant lifestyle. One is talking about outreach, the other about the lifestyle of a believer after accepting the Messiah. I don't personally witness about Torah observance to unbelievers; I save those sorts of conversations on the topic of the "Christian walk" for discussion among believers. But, unbelieving Jews are approached by those in the Messianic movement, and observe what goes on in Messianic congregations, and for some this is positively impactful.

I hear what you're saying and agree with much of it.

Here's the thing, and the reason Stan Telchin wrote the book:
Jews, and Gentile Christians, who embrace 'Jewishness' for its own sake and purpose to worship 'differently' or 'set themselves apart' from the rest of the Body are not resting in Christ and the identity as the One New Man in Him. Furthermore, many advocate Old Covenant Law 'keeping' as a way of life, which further isolates them not only from the Body of Christ, but also from the world to whom they are commissioned to bring the Good News of the Work of Christ.

I get that some Hebrew Christians desire to maintain cultural heritage, but that's not what the Hebrew Roots Movement and other Torah-centric movements are about; they're about putting Christians back under the Law, which goes squarely against the New Covenant Scriptures. They go so far as to say that believers in Yeshua actually become Israel, and are therefore subject to Her Law. Messianic Judaism does this to a lesser degree (and minus the Two House/Ephraimite doctrine), depending on the congregation, but even they have a separatist/elitist mindset, which is what Telchin addresses in his book.

And though anecdotal, information that I've gathered over the last nine years from those in the Messianic/Hebrew Roots movements who have since come out all testify to the same thing: Most Hebrews/Jews are offended that Gentiles are acting like Hebrews. Couple that with the fact that most attendees even in Messianic Judaism assemblies are Gentiles, you can see how it becomes more about trying to be something they're not rather than an effective way to reach Jews with the Gospel.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Um, Paul was Jewish.

Him operating within his heritage was culturally acceptable and he used the OT Scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Gentiles acting like Jews is simply offensive to Jews. Practicing Jews discourage conversion by Gentiles to Judaism (they make it difficult), and are offended when unconverted Gentiles pretend to be Israel.


Catriel’s Notebook: "Messianic Synagogues" Target Jews but Hit Christians, Some of Whom Are Converting to Judaism


-JGIG

I don't follow. The law was not given to the Jews only. The law was given to Israel if I am not mistaken and we are grafted into the vine.

1. The terms 'Jew' and 'Israel' were used interchangeably by Paul's time. We know that all of the tribes, and though scattered, enough maintained their tribal lines that they were identifiable. James, for example, wrote his letter to the 'twelve tribes scattered abroad', and Luke 2 refers to Anna of the tribe of Asher. So Jews/Israel of the day knew who they were and if you read Paul's letters carefully, you will see that he does indeed use the terms 'Jew' and 'Israel' interchangeably.

2. The Law was given to Israel. You say we are grafted into the vine. Christ says He is the Vine and that we are to abide in Him. Romans 11 says we are grafted into the Root. Revelation says that Christ is both the Root and the branch.

• Who is the Vine?
• Who is the Root?
• Who gives you life?

We are grafted into Christ, not into Israel.

Torah folk will attempt to refer to Ephesians 2 to say that we (Gentiles) become part of the commonwealth of Israel, and building on that false premise, go on to say that because we are part of Israel, we are now subject to her Law.

Not so.

Let's take a look at Ephesians 2:

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you [Gentiles]
were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel [Jews/Israel]
and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.​

This clearly refers to Israel and Her covenants with Abraham (circumcision) and the Law given at Sinai (Israel established as a nation and sanctified from the rest of the world). What happens next?

13 >>> But now <<<
>>> in Christ Jesus <<<
you who once were far off [Gentiles]
have been brought near [to God - see below to Whom we are reconciled]
by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our [Jews/Israel and Gentiles inclusively] peace,
who has made us both [Jews/Israel and Gentiles inclusively] one
and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [which was what?]

15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,
that he might create in himself one new man
>>> in place of the two <<<,
so making peace,

16 and might reconcile us both [Jews/Israel and Gentiles] to God
in >>> one body <<< [this is a NEW body of people]
through the cross, thereby killing the hostility [between Jews/Israel and Gentiles].
​

Now read the balance, understanding that He has created in Himself one NEW man:

17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off [Gentiles]
and peace to those who were near [Jews/Israel].

18 For >>> through him <<< [clarified in ch. 3:1-12 regarding the mystery of the Gospel in Christ through faith]
we both [Jews/Israel and Gentiles]
have access in one Spirit to the Father.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are

>>> fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God [household of God being the one body, the one new man - a new group of people, made up of Jews/Israel and Gentiles, together, God's people in Christ],<<<

20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
[the fulfillment of the Old and the cornerstone of the New Covenant]

21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
[The spiritual fulfillment - the reality in Christ of the physical shadow/temple mandated by the Law]

​

Of note:

• Gentiles don't gain entrance into the Commonwealth of Israel.

• Both the Commonwealth of Israel and Gentiles, through Christ, gain entrance into
  >>> the household of God <<<.

• After the Cross, membership in the household of God is by belief in the One God sent, not by adherence to the Siniatic Covenant.

Chapter 3, vs. 1-12 specifically, goes on to explain the Mystery of the Gospel - addressed to Gentiles - and nowhere is it inferred that Gentiles must now live as Jews/Israel or partake in Her heritage.

It's all about building them up in who they are in Christ - that they may grasp just what that means - that HE, the fullness of God (see also Col. 2:9-15) is the cornerstone of the whole structure being joined together (Jews/Israel and Gentiles).

After the Cross, it is no longer all about Israel and the Law, but about Christ and whosoever will put their faith in Him - and the result is the household of God.

One Hebrew Roots teacher wrote,

"The bride of Christ is and always has been, Israel... and Israel is not goy, it is Israel. That is a special word, look up how many times 'My people Israel' or 'Israel My people' is said in Scripture. There is no gate in the New Jerusalem marked, 'Gentiles.' The only gates mentioned are all marked for the 12 tribes of Israel."​

I asked him to please provide the verse where the Scriptures say that the Bride of Christ is Israel. Four months later I'm still waiting.

And must one be a Yankee to enter Yankee stadium?

Did one need to be East German to pass through the gates of the Wall when it was intact?

No - one simply needs permission from the governing authority to enter, and in Christ, by His Authority, we gain entrance into the Kingdom of God.

The 'Two House', 'Lost Tribes', or 'Ephraimite' doctrine taught in the Hebrew Roots Movement is addressed in more detail here: Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement - An Examination of 'Identity Crisis' and Related Teachings of Jim Staley

And an examination of Who or what believers (Jews/Israel and Gentiles) are grafted into is addressed here: Hebrew Roots Movement - Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

-JGIG

 

[ChristInUs]

Again if all we needed was law then why did Christ die on the cross and then be resurrected, why all we need is law.

 

[JGIG]

Dan, where in the Law do you see where it permits a 'loose' adherence?

That's the thing: Torah-pursuant folks are not following THE Law, they are following a law of their own creation, something not as God gave it at all. It's an insult to the Holiness of God and His Provision in Christ.

I know there's a great desire to 'get along' with other points of view, and on secondary, disputable matters, that's fine (see Romans 14: Indisputable Matters – Torah or the Gospel? for my take on that), but those who advocate Torah observance for BELIEVERS are preaching against some core issues in the Gospel - the Work and High Priesthood of Christ specifically.

Being agreeable to the Torah-pursuant point of view shows an attempt at peace-keeping, not peace-making. Ephesians 2 says it beautifully:

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.​

We don't celebrate the Shadow, but Christ Himself, for HE is our peace, not that which pointed to Him.

-JGIG

well, if you're saying don't be nice to those who self-identify as christian law keepers, then I prefer a different way... I prefer a gentle, joyful approach...

Dan, I think if you go and read Romans 14: Indisputable Matters – Torah or the Gospel?, you'll find my approach to be rather gentle and loving . . . and somewhat joyful .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Friend, what exactly are you saying here? That you agree with the accusers of the Messiah, Stephen, and Paul that they "ignored the Law"? And what do you mean by saying that the Messiah "ignored the Law"? If by "ignored the Law" you mean that He violated the Law and taught against it, you are getting into the dangerous territory of Him not qualifying as the sacrificial Lamb.

Following this train of thought is painting the Messiah as disobedient and the Pharisees as truly obedient ones. On the contrary, we find that the Messiah's charge against the Pharisees is that they weren't keeping the Law, but instead were breaking the commands of God in order to honor their own man-made regulations (cf., Matt. 15:1-9).

On the issue of Stephen, as someone else has already asked, where does the book of Acts record that Stephen was ignoring the Law? Here is what we find in Acts 6:

Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, “We have heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.” So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.” -- Acts 6:11-14 (NIV)

Seems like a rather straightforward narrative piece to me. These secretly persuaded men are false witnesses who bring a false testimony. The false testimony they bring is that Stephen speaks against the Temple and the Law, saying that Jesus will destroy the Temple and change the Law. If the testimony is false, then Stephen was not speaking these things. If Stephen was speaking against the Law, and saying it was changed by Jesus, then the testimony would be true. So which is it?

Let me offer a different perspective:

The Pharisees and teachers of the Law falsely accused the Messiah of violating the Law. The reality is that He kept the Law and was without sin. He only violated their misunderstanding of the Law, the fences they built around the Law, and their man-made regulations they bound upon the people. The Pharisees and teachers of the Law were the ones breaking the commands of God by putting the Law aside in order to elevate their man-made regulations. They end up putting the Messiah to death on the false charge of blasphemy. Fast forward to Stephen who, in a similar manner, is falsely accused of speaking against the Law and teaching that the Messiah would change the customs handed down from Moses. They end up stoning Stephen to death after levying this false charge. Now onto Paul, he faces similar false accusations when he visits Jerusalem, that he is teaching Jews to not be circumcised or follow their customs. He makes a public demonstration that there is no truth to the false accusations and that he himself walks in obedience to the Law. Later at the time of his incarceration and after, he is again falsely charged and the book of Acts records him defending himself three times.

So I ask in a similar way to you phrased it: 2,000 years later, are we agreeing with the false accusations of the people who killed the Messiah, Stephen, and Paul?

A Defense of the Gospel of Grace - addresses the above issues very well.

Give it a listen. Free player/download.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Oh and the idea that the Ten Commandments are contained in the Two Great Commandments is untrue?

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2Jn 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

I am assuming you are not an accountant because every time you summed up the deposits in a bank account, the balance would be zero because you disallow all the entries that are to be summed up.

John defines the commandments to which he is referring in 1 Jn. 3:23-24:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

​

Why isn't His command(s) burdensome? Because it's actually Fruit produced by His Spirit:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (from Gal. 5)

​

And what does Romans 13 tell us is the fulfillment of the Law?

Love. Which is Fruit, not the keeping of laws.

Besides, in Christ we have died to the Law, remember? (Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 2:19-21)

-JGIG

​

 

[MarcR]

1. The terms 'Jew' and 'Israel' were used interchangeably by Paul's time. We know that all of the tribes, and though scattered, enough maintained their tribal lines that they were identifiable. James, for example, wrote his letter to the 'twelve tribes scattered abroad', and Luke 2 refers to Anna of the tribe of Asher. So Jews/Israel of the day knew who they were and if you read Paul's letters carefully, you will see that he does indeed use the terms 'Jew' and 'Israel' interchangeably.

2. The Law was given to Israel. You say we are grafted into the vine. Christ says He is the Vine and that we are to abide in Him. Romans 11 says we are grafted into the Root. Revelation says that Christ is both the Root and the branch.

• Who is the Vine?
• Who is the Root?
• Who gives you life?

We are grafted into Christ, not into Israel.

Torah folk will attempt to refer to Ephesians 2 to say that we (Gentiles) become part of the commonwealth of Israel, and building on that false premise, go on to say that because we are part of Israel, we are now subject to her Law.

Not so.

Let's take a look at Ephesians 2:

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you [Gentiles]
were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel [Jews/Israel]
and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.​

This clearly refers to Israel and Her covenants with Abraham (circumcision) and the Law given at Sinai (Israel established as a nation and sanctified from the rest of the world). What happens next?

13 >>> But now <<<
>>> in Christ Jesus <<<
you who once were far off [Gentiles]
have been brought near [to God - see below to Whom we are reconciled]
by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our [Jews/Israel and Gentiles inclusively] peace,
who has made us both [Jews/Israel and Gentiles inclusively] one
and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [which was what?]

15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,
that he might create in himself one new man
>>> in place of the two <<<,
so making peace,

16 and might reconcile us both [Jews/Israel and Gentiles] to God
in >>> one body <<< [this is a NEW body of people]
through the cross, thereby killing the hostility [between Jews/Israel and Gentiles].
​

Now read the balance, understanding that He has created in Himself one NEW man:

17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off [Gentiles]
and peace to those who were near [Jews/Israel].

18 For >>> through him <<< [clarified in ch. 3:1-12 regarding the mystery of the Gospel in Christ through faith]
we both [Jews/Israel and Gentiles]
have access in one Spirit to the Father.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are

>>> fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God [household of God being the one body, the one new man - a new group of people, made up of Jews/Israel and Gentiles, together, God's people in Christ],<<<

20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
[the fulfillment of the Old and the cornerstone of the New Covenant]

21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
[The spiritual fulfillment - the reality in Christ of the physical shadow/temple mandated by the Law]

​

Of note:

• Gentiles don't gain entrance into the Commonwealth of Israel.

• Both the Commonwealth of Israel and Gentiles, through Christ, gain entrance into
  >>> the household of God <<<.

• After the Cross, membership in the household of God is by belief in the One God sent, not by adherence to the Siniatic Covenant.

Chapter 3, vs. 1-12 specifically, goes on to explain the Mystery of the Gospel - addressed to Gentiles - and nowhere is it inferred that Gentiles must now live as Jews/Israel or partake in Her heritage.

It's all about building them up in who they are in Christ - that they may grasp just what that means - that HE, the fullness of God (see also Col. 2:9-15) is the cornerstone of the whole structure being joined together (Jews/Israel and Gentiles).

After the Cross, it is no longer all about Israel and the Law, but about Christ and whosoever will put their faith in Him - and the result is the household of God.

One Hebrew Roots teacher wrote,

"The bride of Christ is and always has been, Israel... and Israel is not goy, it is Israel. That is a special word, look up how many times 'My people Israel' or 'Israel My people' is said in Scripture. There is no gate in the New Jerusalem marked, 'Gentiles.' The only gates mentioned are all marked for the 12 tribes of Israel."​

I asked him to please provide the verse where the Scriptures say that the Bride of Christ is Israel. Four months later I'm still waiting.

And must one be a Yankee to enter Yankee stadium?

Did one need to be East German to pass through the gates of the Wall when it was intact?

No - one simply needs permission from the governing authority to enter, and in Christ, by His Authority, we gain entrance into the Kingdom of God.

The 'Two House', 'Lost Tribes', or 'Ephraimite' doctrine taught in the Hebrew Roots Movement is addressed in more detail here: Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement - An Examination of 'Identity Crisis' and Related Teachings of Jim Staley

And an examination of Who or what believers (Jews/Israel and Gentiles) are grafted into is addressed here: Hebrew Roots Movement - Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

-JGIG

I am not, nor do I desire to be connected with the Hebrew Roots movement.

I still take issue with one of your premises.

We are grafted into Christ, not into Israel.


Ro 11:13-22
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
KJV

In the olive tree, to which the wild is grafted in, is obviously a figure of Israel

Even saying that we are grafted into Christ; which we certainly are:

Christ is part of Judah through Mary.
Judah is part of Israel through Jacob (Israel).

Being in Christ is being in Israel. NOT by replacement ; but rather by inclusion.

God's promises to Israel are still to Israel; but the Church partakes of them by inclusion.

The Church also partakes of the heritage; which is not a bad thing.

 

[JGIG]

You sure of that?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Jas 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

What Law is James referring to?

What does the previous verse say?

Jas 2:11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

And what Law contains "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?

john832, in your theology, how many of your sins were judged at the Cross?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

UH, because I understand that the application of the Law has changed. There is no longer a Priesthood or a Temple. Where did Paul go to keep the Feasts as long as the Temple and Priesthood stood?

Act 18:21 but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing." And he sailed from Ephesus.

Oh wait, he kept the Feast and he kept it in Jerusalem as long as the Temple and Priesthood stood.



I don't think that I am justified by Law keeping, but I do know that I can be condemned for Law BREAKING, therefore as Paul did, I strive to obey...

2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

Again, I have to ask, how many of your sins were judged at the Cross?

 

[JGIG]

just listened to EPHESIANS being read.

GOD'S WRATH upon the disobedient. sure thing. absolutely sure. no exception to HIS WORD --

HE HONORS HIS WORD EVEN ABOVE HIS NAME.


only hope for salvation is if someone pays for that wrath/ or punishment/ or penalty for sin/ with their obedient sacrifice/offering/life/blood according in EVERY WAY to GOD'S WORD.

now since JESUS HAS SUFFERED SUCH A HORRIBLE DEATH, for humans everywhere , turn to HIM TO BE SAVED.

anyone who could do that, (turn to HIM, after HIS HORRIBLE DEATH IN THEIR PLACE)

and think for a moment that they would after that STILL DISOBEY HIM ----
- they are great danger to be lost.... forever, not just for a while....

Jeff, I have to ask you, as well: How many of your sins did Jesus take the judgement for?

 

[JGIG]

Well, I think that a better assessment is to interpret the Laws by the Spirit as Christ shows us on the Sermon on the Mount. Some Laws can be obeyed as stated, such as the Ten Commandments. No one would contend that it is OK to break the letter of those Laws. It is never OK to lie or steal or kill.

There are some that can be applied today in our everyday life...

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

If you have a deck on your house and if someone could fall off of it and get hurt, it is your responsibility to build a handrail around it for protection. The spiritual aspect of the Law is to protect folks at your home from undue injury.

There are some Laws that were for Israel nationally. Individuals cannot practice national laws. The Law concerning capital punishment is practiced today in the U.S. by duly constituted authorities. Individuals do not practice capital punishment today anymore than they did then.

Finally, there are some Laws that simply cannot be practiced. Those concerning a Priesthood and Temple can not be practiced. They are not applicable. An example would be that you should always stop at a stop sign. Are there any stop signs on an interstate highway? No. So do you stop at stop signs on an interstate highway? No. Does that do away with the law concerning stop signs? Don't run one in your neighborhood to find out.

The Law is spiritual and must be spiritually determined. The Holy Spirit gives one the ability to discern the Law. Seems funny, I am the one called a Pharisee, yet I am condemned for not practicing Pharisaical laws by those who claim to be spiritual and can only see the Law through Pharisaical eyes.

You're not getting ANY of that from Scripture.

The Law is clearly given in the Old Covenant Scriptures.

You are clearly not keeping it as it was given by God at Sinai.

You are practicing a law of your own creation, an extremely watered down and subjective version that you deem 'keepable'.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Dan, where in the scripture do you see permission to blatantly disregard the Law?

well, here 'But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.' that sounds to me like we don't have to obey the law.

the law is useful for gaining wisdom, so we don't want to blatantly disregard the Law.

I don't think there's a scripture that says we should try to disobey the law, I think there're ones that say we may disobey the law.

Actually, Scripture goes farther than that: God says that in Christ we DIE to the Law. One can not be more disconnected from something than to die to it (Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 2:19-21).

So it's not that we're disregarding the Law, it's just that we can be poked and poked and poked by the Law, but we're dead to it - it's like jabbing at a corpse - putting the Law on a corpse isn't going to make it alive - only Christ by His Work and His Spirit can bring life.

And according to the Bible, if we're led by the Spirit, we're not under the Law.

This teaching explains it really well:

[video]http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/30334305[/video]

The whole series on Romans can be found here: andrew farley :: media player

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

. . . The best way I can describe this, is to where it (and you can google search what they look like) is if you're walking in the Spirit, you're walking in Torah. The Spirit guides you in your spiritual walk with the Lord. Now the tzitzits is kind of like a physical reminder to not stray away from the Spirit. Look at the scripture, part of it is reminder to be Holy. How do we be Holy, we walk in the Spirit.

Wow. Yep. A law of your own creation.

Numbers 15:37-41
37 The LORD said to Moses, 38 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. 39 You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the LORD, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. 40 Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God. 41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the LORD your God.’”
​

Clearly the Old Covenant Scripture you said to look at points the tassel-wearer to the Law, not to the Spirit.

The New Covenant Scripture (again, which side of the Cross are we on?) clearly say this:

If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the Law. (from Gal. 5)​

Do you know why you cannot be led by both the Spirit and be under the Law?

Because the Law brings death (2 Cor. 3) and the Spirit brings Life:

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (from 2 Cor. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Go to the thread "All these threads.." and read the big long description on why we should keep the old.

When coming to Christ you are adopted into Israel. Now I'm not saying you are a Jew, Jews come from the southern kingdom of Judah. Gentiles would be Ephriam, the northern kingdom. (this is from when the kingdom of Israel split and went into capvtivity). Now on the post I didn't go into the explainations of adoption into Israel, but I did explain a lot that leads up to NT talking about the adoption. Yeshua said He came for His sheep, but some of the sheep are from a different fold. This is talking about Ephraim and Judah and bringing them together. Yeshua, being God, is not going to hold standards such as Torah to one and not the other, that would not make sense because that would make Him double-minded, and our Lord is not double-minded.

What Biblelogic01 is describing above is what is known as the 'Two House', 'Ephraimite', or 'Lost Tribes' doctrine, which is just another version of British Israelism, which over time has morphed into beliefs ranging from the Two House/Ephraimite theology (basically British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist), to the distinctly more racist Christian Identity Movement.

Following is a list of resources which refute the above assertions according to Scripture.


Articles regarding The Two House/Ephraimite Doctrine

• British Israelism – True or False? – The Hebrew Roots Two House/Ephraimite doctrine has its roots in British/Anglo Israelism, just with an Hebraic twist. ESN does a great job of sorting out the beliefs/errors of this particular stream of thought.​
• Ephraimites or Ephra I am nots? – A somewhat humorous look at the ‘Two House’ movement within the HRM.​
• The Ephraimite Error – This article is from a Messianic Judaism site, but gives a good overview of the Two-House issue and disagreements within Law keeping sects. Read with caution and discernment.​
• The “Ephraimite Error”: Critical Errors – From the author of an HRM site. The other side to this contoversial view found in some Law keeping sects. Read with caution and discernment.​
• A Brief Assessment of Two House Theology – From a Messianic Judaism site. A comprehensive critique of the Ephramite/Two House doctrine​
• The Secret History of Two House Doctrine – Reveals the connections between some older belief systems and the new, HRM twist on the Two House Doctrine. ​
• Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No. – addresses the practical issues regarding the Two House/Ephraimite doctrine.
• Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley – Addresses the Staley version of the Ephraimite/Two House doctrine.

Read through the Biblical evidence and make your own decision.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You are right, and who is Abraham's seed? That would be Israel.

I don't know if you were disagreeing with what I said, or agreeing.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (from Gal. 3)

​

Israel was the many; Christ is the One. And if you're in Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise:

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. (from Gal. 4)

​

It's not about being/becoming Israel; it's about being in Christ.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Ok, when I get off work (and if I can get my phone to work, it's been broken for about a week now), I'll post a picture. I don't even know how to post a picture on here, but i'll try.

The majority of Christians (as you've probably seen on this site), do not believe in wearing them and also some believe it to be legalistic to wear them. I don't think it to be legalistic because 1 it's a part of the bible/Torah and 2 Yeshua wore them, are we not suppose to be His followers? Aren't we suppose to attempt to live as He lived? (those are rhetorical questions) I ask a lot of those.

Sounds so good, but what does the Bible say?

Christ never married. So you should never marry.

Christ was sinless. Are you sinless?

Christ is God. Are you God?

Ooooh. That one is right up there with the Big Lie told in the Garden: Eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and you will be like God . . .

And wearing tassels is going to make you like Christ? Really?

What does the Bible have to say in the New Covenant Scriptures?


Posted on the JGIG Facebook page today:

Mere Imitators? Or "As He is in This World" . . . ​

Folks that preach Law tell us that we must 'walk as Yeshua walked', and tell us that means walking in Torah observance. Sounds plausible, until you consider that Yeshua walked in Torah observance before the Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, which rendered the Old Covenant Torah Law obsolete.

When you hear these things, consider fully what the Work of Christ accomplished. The current and permanent High Priesthood in Christ is not of the tribe of Levi, which interceded for the people in the Old Covenant, but that Christ is of the tribe of Judah, and His Priesthood - established by God's oath on Himself - mediates the New Covenant, entered into by faith by all tribes and nations (see Ephesians 3:6-12).

So what place has the Old Covenant (the Law) in the era of the New Covenant?

Romans 7:4-6 says

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. ​

And Galatians 2:19-21 says

19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
​

And when someone tells you that we are to walk as Jesus walked, refer them to this passage:

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment:

>>> because as he is, so are we in this world. <<<
(from 1 Jn. 4)​

This weekend, as the world recognizes the Crucifixion, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ Jesus, seriously consider what those events actually accomplished for you who are in Christ, and pray for open doors to share the Life that Christ purchased for us with the Lost folks you know.

An excellent teaching on Romans 7 and the reality of those in Christ being dead to Law in order to be joined to Christ so that we may bear fruit unto God can be found here: 03-24-2013 Romans - The Gift Of Righteousness (Part 8), Recorded on 3/24/13 DrAndrewFarley on USTREAM. Church

The entire series on Paul's letter to the Romans can be found here:
andrew farley :: media player

Highly Recommended!

Grace and peace to you all as you ponder tomorrow the significance of the Death of Christ on the Cross.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I am not, nor do I desire to be connected with the Hebrew Roots movement.

I still take issue with one of your premises.

We are grafted into Christ, not into Israel.


Ro 11:13-22
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
KJV

In the olive tree, to which the wild is grafted in, is obviously a figure of Israel

Even saying that we are grafted into Christ; which we certainly are:

Christ is part of Judah through Mary.
Judah is part of Israel through Jacob (Israel).

Being in Christ is being in Israel. NOT by replacement ; but rather by inclusion.

God's promises to Israel are still to Israel; but the Church partakes of them by inclusion.

The Church also partakes of the heritage; which is not a bad thing.

The olive tree is a metaphor, one of several used in the Scriptures to depict Israel.

Here's the thing: we do not get our life from Israel, we get our life from Christ. We do not enter into Christ be first becoming Israel; we enter into Christ by faith.

. . . remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.​

If you read the article on the realities of olive tree grafting, it becomes clear that the grafted in branches don't 'turn into' or take on the identity of the host tree; no, they simply get their life from the root stock of the tree. Again, where do we get our life, whether a natural or wild branch? From Israel or from Christ?

Hebrew Roots Movement - Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

-JGIG

 

[Dan_473]

I guess that's one possible way to go about it. Seems harmless enough on something like tassels. From a quick Google search, there are clip-on ones that can be purchased and clipped onto jean belt loops, it seems. Another way to go about it, and I'm going to guess that this is how it is for some people, is to wear the tallit (prayer shawl) on Sabbath service, which has the tassels affixed to its fringes. I currently do neither.

I think the more practical point I was getting at is that the Biblical texts are not downloaded into our brains overnight. Even discovering what the gospels say about the Messiah's walk, or reading through the Torah to discover the commands, or looking at the example of the early communities of believers, takes time. There are probably many good, honest folks who just haven't even come to the tassel command, for example. The same could be said for other portions of Scripture. Even if one sits down and reads the whole text cover to cover, you still have to consider things in some sort of linear fashion, one thing at a time. Get what I'm saying?

I can't say I get what you're saying...it should only take a few hours to read through all 600 or so commands in Torah... maybe a couple of days to read them all in the context of the bible...

now, would the person have a complete understanding of each command? no... well, we can't ever say we fully understand any command in Torah, can we? always new things to learn...

we read the command not to steal... we may have some questions about copyright infringement and how the commandment applies... but most people wouldn't just disregard the commandment, they would follow it best they could 'till they learned more... imo...

 

[Dan_473]

Yeshua is God in the flesh; therefor, from my understanding, this would make Yeshua "I AM".
In John 10, Yeshua states that He and the Father are one. If Yeshua and God are one that would make Yeshua "I AM". That's also why the Pharisees got majorly ticked off, because they thought He was blaspheming.

So according to scripture, I AM and Yeshua are one and the same.

ok, I don't claim to have a good understanding of the Trinity... but when the spirit moves upon the waters in the beginning, is that Jesus? God says let there be light, is that Jesus saying that? where is the father in all this?

so, imo, the different persons of God do different things, and when Jesus says 'my commandments' he's not talking about Torah...