Mark of the Beast.

[PeteWaldo]

Honestly, let's look to the One who will return and not focus so much on the little details.

Jesus IS truth, so the only way we can serve Him is IN truth. Let's look at an example of the kind of thing that happens when we choose to blow off "little details", and simply parrot doctrine:

"Ronald H. Stone, John Witherspoon Professor of Christian Ethics at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, attracted negative media attention during the tour after being quoted as saying, "We treasure the precious words of Hezbollah and your expression of goodwill toward the American people. Also we praise your initiative for dialogue and mutual understanding. We cherish these statements that bring us closer to you. As an elder of our church, I'd like to say that according to my recent experience, relations and conversations with Islamic leaders are a lot easier than dealings and dialogue with Jewish leaders."[4]

A member of the delegation, Reverend Nile Harper stated that "The occupation by Israel in the West Bank and Gaza must end because it is oppressive and destructive for the Palestinian people".[5]"

So because of Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism and resulting denigration of Jews, these self-proclaimed Christians steeped in the partial preterism of the Presbyterian Church lauded praises on an internationally recognized terrorist organization, that is simply engaged in the 1400 year conquest of the world, and subjugation of all people to disbelieving the crucifixion of Christ, denying the Son of God, and rejecting His shed blood, AS ARTICLES OF FAITH in THE false prophet Muhammad. Thus further advancing the Islamic conquest of Israel and subjugation of Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arabs to Muhammad's followers.

From WND: "'Arab Spring' becoming Nightmare For Christians":
"Christians can In the case of Ayyad, who managed the only Christian bookstore in Gaza, his body was discovered riddled with gunshot and stab wounds."
"The witnesses said they saw three armed men, two of whom were wearing masks, beat Ayyad repeatedly with clubs and the butts of their guns while they accused him of attempting to spread Christianity in Gaza. The witnesses said that after sustaining the beating, Ayyad was shot by all three men."

From WND "Christians warned: Accept Islamic law"
Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview."
The militant leader said Christians in Gaza who engage in "missionary activity" will be "dealt with harshly."
"Jihadia Salafiya and other Islamic movements will ensure Christian schools and institutions show publicly what they are teaching to be sure they are not carrying out missionary activity. No more alcohol on the streets. All women, including non-Muslims, need to understand they must be covered at all times while in public," Abu Asqer told WND.
"This missionary activity is endangering the entire Christian community in Gaza," he said.
Abu Saqer said Hamas "must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people."
"His comments come after gunmen on Sunday attacked Gaza's Latin Church and adjacent Rosary Sisters School, reportedly destroying crosses, bibles, pictures of Jesus and furniture and equipment. The attackers also stole a number of computers."

Wikipedia article: "In contrast, a poll of 507 Arab-Israelis conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute in 2007 found that 75 percent profess support for Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state which guarantees equal rights for minorities. Israeli Arab support for a constitution in general was 88 percent.[31]"

One would think that all a Christian would need to do is consider the fruit of the tree of those of us that favor Zionism and the freedom, liberty and right to self determination afforded by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, and its protection of Israeli Jews, Christians, non-Muslim Arabs and Muslims (where Muslims enjoy more freedom than they do in any Muslim controlled country on earth), as compared to the fruit of the anti-Zionism tree:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel-13.html#post985301

 

[Widdekind]

From the link:

"Historicism is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which attempts to associate biblical prophecies with actual historical events and identify symbolic beings with historical persons or societies. The main texts of interest are apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, and historicist methods have been applied to ancient Jewish history, the Roman Empire, Mohammedism, the Papacy, the Modern era and even into the End time."

Jews and Christians understand Daniel's figures of "lion" "bear" and "leopard" kingdom "beasts", for example, were so well described they are nearly universally understood to be the ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece, that came to pass in steady succession in Daniel's future, with his "fourth dreadful" beast being the Roman Empire.

Available evidence suggests that up until a couple hundred years ago, the church understood New Testament bible prophecy was in the process of being fulfilled, through the traditional historicist approach as well.
​

All of that is completely consistent, with what i was stating.

Simply repeating what we have been taught won't make necessarily make magically come true. But thanks for that excellent illustration of the power of, and the doctrine induced blindness caused by, the pop-19th century eschatology of preterism (and futurism), that displaced the traditional historicist approach as Christians uniformly applied it to all bible prophecy prior to the last couple of centuries.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html

Though perhaps right on schedule:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[PeteWaldo]

From the link:

"Historicism is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which attempts to associate biblical prophecies with actual historical events and identify symbolic beings with historical persons or societies. The main texts of interest are apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, and historicist methods have been applied to ancient Jewish history, the Roman Empire, Mohammedism, the Papacy, the Modern era and even into the End time."

Jews and Christians understand Daniel's figures of "lion" "bear" and "leopard" kingdom "beasts", for example, were so well described they are nearly universally understood to be the ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece, that came to pass in steady succession in Daniel's future, with his "fourth dreadful" beast being the Roman Empire.

Available evidence suggests that up until a couple hundred years ago, the church understood New Testament bible prophecy was in the process of being fulfilled, through the traditional historicist approach as well.
​

All of that is completely consistent, with what i was stating.

​

I guess you didn't notice that Daniel's kingdom "beasts" unfolded in a steady succession throughout the period in his future about which he prophesied. Unless you are going to suggest the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ happened in the first century, you do not have the historicist approach to New Testament prophecy, that you do for Old Testament prophecy, as there is a 1,900 gap - that is known as Christian era history - that Alcazar's doctrine places off-limits even for your consideration, when contemplating fulfillment of bible prophecy. The same nearly 1,900 years of Christian era history that futurists must also ignore as being irrelevant.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Honestly, let's look to the One who will return and not focus so much on the little details.

Darned, I thought I saw that you posted here, but I didn't scroll down far enough. This is a little redundant.

In another thread Prayer of Renunciation you said you don't agree with details of brother Ellis' dan-rev study, and I inquired as to the specifics, but your comment quoted here indicates something more akin to indifference (I realize this wasn't an answer to that).

Since you approach New Testament prophesy through historicism, and in light of the prior posts in this thread, or anything else, could you detail what it is that you have trouble with in Therapon's bible study? I would like to help bro:
Mark of the Beast.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Dang bro. Just realized that wasn't you, and the clock got me on that post! Must be a touch of that "oldtimers" disease settin' in! But would you care to address the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the content of those posts anyway?
Mark of the Beast.

 

[Widdekind]

Huh ?

Daniel = 6th - 1st centuries BC = Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome (Republic / Empire)
"man of intrigues" = Julius Caesar
"three uprooted horns" = Triumvirates out-politicked by Caesar

Rev 1-19 = 1st - 4th centuries AD = Tribulation
Rev 20 = to 15th century AD = Millennium
= to today = Apostasy
= future = Second Coming, Judgement​

Most-but-not-all of the Prophesies in Rev have already been fulfilled. Today is the End Times (Rev 20:7-9), before the "fire from heaven" makes "earth pass away".

I guess you didn't notice that Daniel's kingdom "beasts" unfolded in a steady succession throughout the period in his future about which he prophesied. Unless you are going to suggest the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ happened in the first century, you do not have the historicist approach to New Testament prophecy, that you do for Old Testament prophecy, as there is a 1,900 gap - that is known as Christian era history - that Alcazar's doctrine places off-limits even for your consideration, when contemplating fulfillment of bible prophecy. The same nearly 1,900 years of Christian era history that futurists must also ignore as being irrelevant.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Huh ?

Daniel = 6th - 1st centuries BC = Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome (Republic / Empire)
"man of intrigues" = Julius Caesar
"three uprooted horns" = Triumvirates out-politicked by Caesar

Rev 1-19 = 1st - 4th centuries AD = Tribulation
Rev 20 = to 15th century AD = Millennium
= to today = Apostasy
= future = Second Coming, Judgement
​

Most-but-not-all of the Prophesies in Rev have already been fulfilled. Today is the End Times (Rev 20:7-9), before the "fire from heaven" makes "earth pass away".

Sorry bro my mistake. When you bolded "Nero" my eye just stopped there and I made the false assumption that you were parroting preterism.
So then who is/was your "beast" and/or "The" "Antichrist"?

 

[Widdekind]

Sorry bro my mistake. When you bolded "Nero" my eye just stopped there and I made the false assumption that you were parroting preterism.
So then who is/was your "beast" and/or "The" "Antichrist"?

all Scripture states, is that Satan recruits global international world-wide opposition to the Church, which gangs up on Christianity (Rev 20:7-9). In ancient times, Satan recruited the Roman empire (Beast), through the Caesars like Nero (666), causing the Tribulation. Then, Satan was bound during the Millennium. Today, Satan is, again, un-bound, during the Apostasy / End Times / Re-Tribulation / Tribulation II. Scripture states, in symbolic code, who the "anti-Christ" (for want of worthier words) was back then, in ancient times, during the Tribulation, under the pagan emperors. Scripture is much more vague, about the present period, of the Re-Tribulation (for want of worthier words).

"Gog & Magog" could be construed, as global international Marxism, persecuting "the beloved city" = Church.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Could we not describe such a beast as "dreadful" ?

I can see where some might wish to, in order to conform scripture to their doctrine.

The "seven heads" refer to Julius Caesar's dynasty of Roman monarchs:

1. Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberias
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero
7. Galba
8. civil war

So king, king, king, king, king, king, king ...... war. Can you see that you needed to do that to fit your doctrine?
Let's look at the verse again:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Not six kings and a war.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So we learn that these 8 entities are kingdom "beasts", to which we could also assign individual kings to, if we so chose. Either way, or both as kings and kingdoms, we need to treat them uniformly.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast-2.html#post992373

Nero

was the 6th Caesar, whose number was 666. The "seventh head" (Galba) reigned for a short time, as Rome plunged into a civil war, without any real "head" of state, i.e. the "headless Beast as eighth king".

The first Jewish war (66-73 AD) destroyed Jerusalem (which had crucified Jesus), and ended the direct dynasty of Caesar (which lineage had authorized the Crucifixion). Those Prophesies were fulfilled in ancient times.

(The "ten horns" represent the pagan emperors afterwards, who would "wage war against the Lamb" (Rev 17), only to be defeated by the Evangelization of the Roman empire (Rev 19).)

So are you SDA?

 

[PeteWaldo]

all Scripture states, is that Satan recruits global international world-wide opposition to the Church, which gangs up on Christianity (Rev 20:7-9). In ancient times, Satan recruited the Roman empire (Beast), through the Caesars like Nero (666), causing the Tribulation. Then, Satan was bound during the Millennium. Today, Satan is, again, un-bound, during the Apostasy / End Times / Re-Tribulation / Tribulation II. Scripture states, in symbolic code, who the "anti-Christ" (for want of worthier words) was back then, in ancient times, during the Tribulation, under the pagan emperors.

Does it ever strike you as strange to write something like that, when 1/4 of mankind today are antichrist, as an article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone?

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

That this same 1.5 billion people are commanded to fight you and your heirs until the whole world is antichrist?

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

That these people are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray in Jesus' name, would constitute the single most egregious, and ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN, in Muhammad's cult? As compared to child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, which may be forgiven.
UNFORGIVABLE SIN OF SHIRK

That followers of Muhammad just burned alive 500 Christian men women and children in their church in Nigeria, as just one instance in their 10 year war against them.
united copts .org - Statement by Father Juan Carlos Martos cmf
Two billion killed or displaced in the Sudan alone. With over 20,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Yet your doctrine convinced you this was all over in the first century. Doesn't that strike you as a bit peculiar?

Scripture is much more vague, about the present period, of the Re-Tribulation (for want of worthier words).

But as I showed you I don't believe it is vague, but rather I understand scripture as being very specific regarding THE false prophet Muhammad and the 1400 year reign of his Islamic kingdom "beast". It is only your unsound doctrine that makes it vague to you.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast-2.html#post992373

"Gog & Magog" could be construed, as global international Marxism, persecuting "the beloved city" = Church.

So who does your doctrine suggest THE false prophet was?

 

[Widdekind]

I can see where some might wish to, in order to conform scripture to their doctrine.

So king, king, king, king, king, king, king ...... war. Can you see that you needed to do that to fit your doctrine?
Let's look at the verse again:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Rev was written c.66 AD, under Nero, the 6th Caesar, whose name is numerologically equivalent to 666. The 7th Caesar / king / Beast-head was not yet in power when John wrote; and when the 7th Caesar came to power, he reigned only a few months. Rome plunged into civil war, with no real "head" of state, but still existing as a state, i.e. "Beast w/ no head still having kingly power". The "seven heads & headless Beast" of Rev 17 = Caesars of Imperial Rome, until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Afterwards, Revelation predicts another slew of "horn kings", i.e. the pagan emperors after the destruction of Jerusalem, until Constantine.

(i'm not SDA, or any other denomination, i'm trying to understand the truth, about Judeo-Christianity. i think the Judeo-Christian "God in heaven" is a hostile, advanced, Alien out in space, with some sort of "space walkie talkie" capable of transmitting voice-and-data, straight thru the skulls, of people upon this planet, who thereby receive "Religious messages".

i think "They" are hostile, deceptive, disingenuous, manipulative, and will destroy all earth. i think the "God of Abraham" has never, for a moment, been humanity's "space Friend in heavenly high places". i think they have been manipulating humanity, for ages, unto Doomsday, when They will annihilate earth. They can communicate, straight to (some) people, treating them like NASA-controlled mars rovers.

Religious humans, by blind obedience to "Holy Spirit signals" amidst their minds, become Alien-controlled, or at least Alien-guided, like rover space probes, effectively as if They (the Aliens) had sent such probes to earth. Jesus and the Apostles were "driven around", "remotely piloted" thru those mind-manipulating "spiritual" signals, to have a powerful impact, on human history.

Sometime somewhat soon, with a century or so, They will finally arrive at earth, and blast the place apart. If They are inbound at close to the speed of light, then i would guess that They are (roughly) ~100 light-years from earth, at this time. Some sort of advanced "Borg-cube" or something, is actually out there, coasting, at high speed, towards our star system. "God = Alien" could account for Religion on earth, in a scientifically sensible way -- this speculation says, that "Allah Exists... and has planet-destroying photon-torpedos, world-melting phaser banks, etc.")

 

[PeteWaldo]

Rev was written c.66 AD, under Nero, the 6th Caesar, whose name is numerologically equivalent to 666. The 7th Caesar / king / Beast-head was not yet in power when John wrote; and when the 7th Caesar came to power, he reigned only a few months. Rome plunged into civil war, with no real "head" of state, but still existing as a state, i.e. "Beast w/ no head still having kingly power". The "seven heads & headless Beast" of Rev 17 = Caesars of Imperial Rome, until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Afterwards, Revelation predicts another slew of "horn kings", i.e. the pagan emperors after the destruction of Jerusalem, until Constantine.

So who was THE false prophet?

(i'm not SDA, or any other denomination, i'm trying to understand the truth, about Judeo-Christianity. i think the Judeo-Christian "God in heaven" is a hostile, advanced, Alien out in space, with some sort of "space walkie talkie" capable of transmitting voice-and-data, straight thru the skulls, of people upon this planet, who thereby receive "Religious messages".

i think "They" are hostile, deceptive, disingenuous, manipulative, and will destroy all earth. i think the "God of Abraham" has never, for a moment, been humanity's "space Friend in heavenly high places". i think they have been manipulating humanity, for ages, unto Doomsday, when They will annihilate earth. They can communicate, straight to (some) people, treating them like NASA-controlled mars rovers.

Religious humans, by blind obedience to "Holy Spirit signals" amidst their minds, become Alien-controlled, or at least Alien-guided, like rover space probes, effectively as if They (the Aliens) had sent such probes to earth. Jesus and the Apostles were "driven around", "remotely piloted" thru those mind-manipulating "spiritual" signals, to have a powerful impact, on human history.

Sometime somewhat soon, with a century or so, They will finally arrive at earth, and blast the place apart. If They are inbound at close to the speed of light, then i would guess that They are (roughly) ~100 light-years from earth, at this time. Some sort of advanced "Borg-cube" or something, is actually out there, coasting, at high speed, towards our star system. "God = Alien" could account for Religion on earth, in a scientifically sensible way -- this speculation says, that "Allah Exists... and has planet-destroying photon-torpedos, world-melting phaser banks, etc.")

So then are YOU (that is, the one who seems altogether different, that is writing in this lighter font), an alternate personality of the person that wrote the first part of the post?

 

[GRA]

"How interesting is it that the creation of this thread just happened to fall on the [next available] number '61666'?"

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast.html

 

[Widdekind]

Does it ever strike you as strange to write something like that, when 1/4 of mankind today are antichrist, as an article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone?

Muslims have opposed Christianity for 1400 years, all the while claiming that they acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. Muslims claim Christians lie, et vice versa, and both Jihad & Crusade, simultaneously together, at the exact same time. Between the both of them, Apocalyptic Prophesies are steadily & inexorably fulfilled.

According to me, the Muslim conquest of Constantinople ended the Millennium, and began the End Times of Apostasy. Muslims funded the Protestants, helping them schism, in order to divide (and presumably conquer) the Church.

Yet your doctrine convinced you this was all over in the first century. Doesn't that strike you as a bit peculiar?

Huh ?

The modern era is the End Times of Apostasy, during which "Satan" recruits "Gog & Magog" to surround & assault "the beloved city". Those symbols seem to translate to Satanists (Rev 2-3, John 8) recruit global international world-wide Marxist opposition to the Church.

There have been troubling trying tribulations throughout Church history; mirroring repeated periods of problems Prophesied in Revelation. Try not to confuse the "Tribulation" era (Rev 1-19), in ancient times, with the "Apostasy" era (Rev 20:7-9), of modern times. In both eras, "Satan" is un-bound, to deceive, dupe, fool, game, play, manipulate, exploit, and otherwise prey upon the naive gullibilities (seemingly innumerable) of the "half-furry ape-men of earth".

So who does your doctrine suggest THE false prophet was?

Huh ?

Revelation states, in symbolic code, who the "anti-Christ" was, in ancient times. (The term "anti-Christ" does not actually appear, in Revelation.) When "Satan" was un-bound, in ancient times, during the Tribulation era, the pagan Roman empire was the "Beast", the persecuting pagan emperors (Nero, Domitian, Decius, Diocletian) were "heads & horns" thereof, and the "false Prophet" was the Caesar cult which proclaimed the Caesars as Divine.

Then "Satan" was bound during the Millennium era.

Then "Satan" was un-bound during the modern End Times of Apostasy era.

All Revelation warns is "expect problems"; no specific details are offered; Revelation did not foretell Christians about Muhammad, or any specific person, since ancient times. That is one reason why "nobody knows the day or hour" (~Matt 24) when "God in heaven" will Arrive at earth.

Muhammad is indirectly implied in Revelation, in-so-far as Muslims conquered Constantinople, in 1453 AD, fulfilling Christian Prophesy (Rev 20:7), and also fulfilling a complimentary Muslim Prophesy ( watch the movie Fetih 1453 ).

"God in heaven" did tell both Christians & Muslims, that Christian civilization would only endure, for a finite span of time, before being conquered. The conquest of Constantinople occurred according to the Divine Plan of "God in heaven", on-Divine-Time. Neither Christians nor Muslims should have been surprised.

Since Muslims are proud, to have vindicated Rev 20:7 with the conquest of Constantinople; and proud to have helped fund global international opposition to Christianity, since then, vindicating Rev 20:7-9, then perhaps Muslims will be proud, when "fire from heaven" makes "earth pass away" in Rev 20:9.

Muslims think they have "Friends in heavenly high places". So do Christians. Their human-bloody Jihads & Crusades will apparently end, when those "heaven Friends" blast earth away, a dozen-or-so more Greek characters down the line of text versified as Revelation 20:9.

Unless something changes, the proverbial "heaven survey will say", whether any humans ever had invisible Friends in heaven.

(if someone told you, you have "Friends in heaven"; and i said "you mean, Enemies in space somewhere?"; then whom would you (want to) believe?)

 

[Widdekind]

So who was THE false prophet?

the false-Religion, defeated by the "victorious Christ-warrior" (= Church), in Rev 19, was the pre-Christian paganism, of the Roman empire, in ancient times. When the Church converted the empire to Christ, the Church spiritually defeated the empire, spiritually conquering the empire, and fulfilling the Prophesies of Rev 19.

Today, "Satan" is again at work, deceiving the whole of humanity. Revelation does not specifically predict anything more specific than "Satan recruits Gog & Magog", i.e. basically everybody (on earth), which seems construably consistent, with global international Karl Marxism.

[HR][/HR]

So then are YOU (that is, the one who seems altogether different, that is writing in this lighter font), an alternate personality of the person that wrote the first part of the post?

Huh ?

human history fulfilled the Prophesies of Daniel, 6th - 1st centuries BC; and of Revelation, 1st - 21st centuries AD.

anybody who denies, that "God in heaven" seems to Exist, and seems to have "shot-called" human history, world-wide, for the past 2600 years, is denying the printed page. Prima facie, "God in heaven" Exists, and has Dominance, over humans on earth, and has had that Dominance over humans on earth, for ages.

all i'm saying, is that does not sound very Friendly. If "God in heaven" was a Hostile space-neighboring Alien, with some sort of "space walkie talkie" capable of transmitting voice-and-data straight thru the skulls, of people upon this planet, manipulating the minds of mankind, towards Apocalypse; then Godly Religion would be reconciled to human science (cosmology), and common sense (uh, no, i guess i don't have invisible space-Friends in heavenly high places).

Muslims want to feel loved. And, some "God in heaven", claiming to be able to "mind scan" humans on earth (Rev 2:23), has been (supposedly) transmitting messages to Middle Easterners, by the Name "Allah, the Lord of worlds [=planets], of the Empire of heaven [=space]", telling those Middle Easterners exactly their own inner-most desires, "oh, yeah, Middle Eastern men have Friends in heavenly-high places, they were born with connections, man, to The Emperor of Emperors, of the Empire of Empires, no no seriously".

Despite only being a "half-furry ape-man", i would advise humans, "down on the dirt of earth", to try listening to Henry Rollins:

i tell you things that you already know
so that you can say
i identify with you so much

but your ego obscures reality
and you never bother to question why
things are going so well

you want to know why ?
​

i think Middle Easterners are fools, to have ever thought, that their glorified-chimpanzee-ness, was ever worthy, or could ever be worthy, of "Allah, the Dominator of planets, of the Empire of space". And i think they are doubly fools, to refuse to think, that somewhere out in space, there could not Exist an old, archaic, Alien, "Ancient of Days", capable of annihilating earth & humanity.

i never told Middle Easterners, that "Allah is funny". all i'm saying is, "God in heaven" Exists, no no no i mean really really really actually actually Exists... and has planet-destroying photon-torpedos, world-melting phasers... and all of that is inbound, towards earth, at near-light-speed... and will extirpate humanity, from the fabric of space-time.

Seemingly,

• the Existence & Dominance of "God in heaven" speak for themselves (Dan & Rev fulfilled)...
• the Friendliness of "God in heaven" is an (extreme) assumption

observation -- humans on earth assume on God
prediction -- God in heaven Exists, and is highly hostile to humanity

 

[PeteWaldo]

Originally Posted by PeteWaldo

So who was THE false prophet?

the false-Religion, defeated by the "victorious Christ-warrior" (= Church), in Rev 19, was the pre-Christian paganism, of the Roman empire, in ancient times. When the Church converted the empire to Christ, the Church spiritually defeated the empire, spiritually conquering the empire, and fulfilling the Prophesies of Rev 19.

We can't just wish something away into a metaphor, because it doesn't fit our doctrine.

pseudoprophētēs
AV — false prophet 11
1) one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies
2) a false prophet

And you can continue on with your space fantasy, and blasphemy against my God, with someone else. Mine is a God of love. You should perhaps seek help, regarding whatever it is in you that has been writing about outer space, in the lighter font.

 

[Widdekind]

you are not being consistent

everything in Revelation is a symbol, representing something else

the "Beast" symbolizes the Roman empire -- you cannot take the Beast literally, there is no actual strange monstrous mutant what-the-muck animal-oid

the "false-Prophet" symbolizes the false Imperial "Religion" of the Caesar-is-Divine cult -- you cannot take the image literally

Revelation is not warning Christians to be en garde for a mutant monster and its pet human pseudo-Prophet

Revelation is symbolic, images symbolize real things, but are not direct pictures of those things

Revelation is not warning Christians to be en garde for a mutant monster and its pet human pseudo-Prophet

We can't just wish something away into a metaphor, because it doesn't fit our doctrine.

pseudoprophētēs
AV — false prophet 11
1) one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies
2) a false prophet

 

[PeteWaldo]

Revelation is not warning Christians to be en garde for a mutant monster and its pet human pseudo-Prophet

Yet in spite of your doctrine, 1/4 of mankind today are antichrist (are that "monster" as you put it - are the false prophet Muhammad's kingdom "beast"), as an article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast-3.html#post992690
1.5 billion people continue to follow THE false prophet Muhammad.
Indeed John's "whole world" has already been conquered by the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast", and virtually everyone carries the name of the Islamic beast, and are in the process of wiping out the remnant of non-Muslims, and burning churches today.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast-2.html#post992373

With 105,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world, every year, mainly by the hand of Muhammad's followers. With yet another 500 Christian men women and children burned alive in their church in Nigeria recently.
united copts .org - Statement by Father Juan Carlos Martos cmf

God certainly gave you the free will to chase after your god that: "i think the Judeo-Christian "God in heaven" is a hostile, advanced, Alien out in space, with some sort of "space walkie talkie" capable of transmitting voice-and-data, straight thru the skulls, of people upon this planet, who thereby receive "Religious messages"."

Good luck with that.

 

[Widdekind]

Huh ?

Muslims are anti-Christian, in-so-far as they oppose the Church

Muslims are not the only Church-opposing anti-Christians on earth

the global inter-national opposition to the Church comports with the End Times of Apostasy (Rev 20:7-9)

if the "Beast" is a symbol, then so is the "false Prophet of the Beast" a symbol -- you cannot claim one is symbolic, but the other is literal

you do not need to mis-construe Revelation, to observe hostility, between Muslims & Christians. What are you seeking to accomplish?? You do not need Revelation's chance mention, of a "false Prophet", to notice that Islam has been opposing the Church, for over a thousand years.

The Islamic conquest of Constantinople in 1453 AD "unbound Satan" (Rev 20:7), who has since recruited a global khabbal of anti-Christian opposition to the Church, e.g. Karl Marxism. Revelation makes no direct mention of Muhammad, as a Prophet of "God in heaven", or otherwise. And, there is no need to try to force Muhammad into Revelation. Nothing Islam has done, has failed to fulfill the "Revelation chronology". The Islamic conquest of Constantinople occurred "on Divine time", after (about) a thousand years, of Constantinople's reign on earth. And, at the same time, the Renaissance arose in Italy, the Reformation across Europe, secular humanism becoming Communism, etc., (at least some of) which Islam supported, if anybody cares. All also "on Divine time".

Courtesy of everybody obeying what they claim "God in heaven" told them, severally, mankind now stands at Rev 20:9a.

Muhammad is not directly mentioned in Revelation, and trying to force him in there, is a waste of your time. Revelation focuses on the Christian world; through the Apostle John, "God in heaven" was promising persecuted Christians, of the 1st century AD, an ultimate victory over the pagan Roman empire (= Rev 19). Revelation ignores the rest of the world, until the Christian world is intruded upon, ending the Christian Millennium (= Rev 20:1-6), and un-binding Satan (= Rev 20:7). Seemingly, if subtly, Revelation implies that, during the Christian Millennium, Satan engineers a "prison escape" by appealing out beyond the borders of Christendom, to "Gog & Magog" everywhere else. But that is reading into the text. All Revelation states, is that the Christian Millennium ends, Satan is un-bound, and recruits "Gog & Magog" world-wde opposition vs. the Church. By the time Revelation takes a global perspective, the Christian Millennium has been ended, Satan un-bound, and basically everybody world-wide recruited into "Satan's earth-world-wide patronage network" of hand-outs, secret-side-incomes, and other bribes & trickeries. From the Revelation perspective, that "patronage network" includes Islam (at least from ~15th century AD), since Islam ended the Christian Millennium, and funded anti-Christian opposition to the Church, from then thru today.

Yet in spite of your doctrine, 1/4 of mankind today are antichrist (are that "monster" as you put it - are the false prophet Muhammad's kingdom "beast"), as an article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast-3.html#post992690
1.5 billion people continue to follow THE false prophet Muhammad.
Indeed John's "whole world" has already been conquered by the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast", and virtually everyone carries the name of the Islamic beast, and are in the process of wiping out the remnant of non-Muslims, and burning churches today.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast-2.html#post992373

With 105,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world, every year, mainly by the hand of Muhammad's followers. With yet another 500 Christian men women and children burned alive in their church in Nigeria recently.
united copts .org - Statement by Father Juan Carlos Martos cmf

God certainly gave you the free will to chase after your god that: "i think the Judeo-Christian "God in heaven" is a hostile, advanced, Alien out in space, with some sort of "space walkie talkie" capable of transmitting voice-and-data, straight thru the skulls, of people upon this planet, who thereby receive "Religious messages"."

Good luck with that.

 

[nonplasticcholyman]

Maybe there is the first,that you get as belonging to Satan,after rejecting God,and salvation,whether you believe it or not. As God put a mark on Cain,on his "chosen" ones,believers etc. The seal,approval of GOD. A spiritual or supernatural or divine mark.
As"he can identify his own from a far off."

And maybe there is a 2nd kind,a "system" one.RFID,ID etc -Forcing one to have total allegiance,reliance,dependance on,or else you'll starve to death.

As man's natural instinct is to survive,at any cost! After all,no one wants to die!

This one may start off as an option,then evolve to a forced,compulsory one later on.It's permanent then, and the only way to get rid of it,is to chop your head off.Or hands.Or,once you've accepted it,like many Christians declared they abide by the Zionist Noahidic laws,pushed through US congress.And boasted they were 100% and certified...la la la...go find the video on you tube!
Then it would be too late, no give backs.You're in for the long haul!

As with the first,a spiritual mark,you may be able to break free from Satan,and choose God,receive his "spiritual" mark or seal,but the second is permanent,like an internal permanent branding.Can't be removed ever, and effects,seals your eternity.As you chose to receive that "mark",ignoring God's warnings.