Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

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K

kenisyes

Guest
Kenisyes
You never answered my question about why the elders in the Temple accepted that Mary wanted to be married to an old man who did not want children.

I think that i have posted u an answer why Elders called all vidows and how was choused a husband for Mary.
You posted how they found Joseph, but never answered why they allowed it. In Israel, a woman with no child was considered a scandal. For Mary to request to stay a virgin, and to get married just to be protected should have caused the elders to tell her she is wrong. We need to understand why, instead of telling her she is wrong, they helped her to set her life up that way, when it was against their culture to do it. They did not know Mary was to be the mother of Jesus at the time. Even Joseph needed the dream so he would know, and that was only after he became betrothed to Mary.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
geo no amount of holy scriptures you post is going to answer my question is it?

so i will ask you again geo do you think that the current rc pope of rome is the true successor of st peter yes or no please
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
geo why can you not answer ?????? just yes or no
 
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quickfire

Guest
lift up the name of jesus amen wahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
Nov 22, 2012
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You posted how they found Joseph, but never answered why they allowed it. In Israel, a woman with no child was considered a scandal. For Mary to request to stay a virgin, and to get married just to be protected should have caused the elders to tell her she is wrong. We need to understand why, instead of telling her she is wrong, they helped her to set her life up that way, when it was against their culture to do it. They did not know Mary was to be the mother of Jesus at the time. Even Joseph needed the dream so he would know, and that was only after he became betrothed to Mary.
But Mary had a children,and what a children!It was Jesus Christ,right?
 
Nov 22, 2012
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geo no amount of holy scriptures you post is going to answer my question is it?

so i will ask you again geo do you think that the current rc pope of rome is the true successor of st peter yes or no please
No he is not.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest

Thankyou for your anwser geo, and i feal the same way to,

can i ask you why you feel in your heart he is not ,

and pleas do not anwser with bible scripture
 
Dec 5, 2012
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I have heard all the allegations from both sides, this is not a newly discover truth or secret. There is much of either hate or not enough faith or just unbelievers out there from the Roman Catholic Church. THis was part of the reason I left wen I was a teenager, but after much discernment and much prayer I can say that the Roman Catholic is the True church Jesus Christ built. No matter how much propaganda you guys find you will not be able to make me think otherwise.

I have said this over and over again, and for the way things keep going I see that I will never stop. I have faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and second person in the trinity over any man, woman, nation, country, www dot what ever dot com, or what ever you guys can think of. There are many people who search and look for a "flaw" and say "You See they are fake". That can be said of any church no matter which one it is. So if you guys do not mind can we get back to the subject of the Blessed Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus Christ, Second person in the Trinity the Son of God. Queen of heaven.

I am a Roman Catholic and I am not ashamed of the church of God.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
I have heard all the allegations from both sides, this is not a newly discover truth or secret. There is much of either hate or not enough faith or just unbelievers out there from the Roman Catholic Church. THis was part of the reason I left wen I was a teenager, but after much discernment and much prayer I can say that the Roman Catholic is the True church Jesus Christ built. No matter how much propaganda you guys find you will not be able to make me think otherwise.

I have said this over and over again, and for the way things keep going I see that I will never stop. I have faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and second person in the trinity over any man, woman, nation, country, www dot what ever dot com, or what ever you guys can think of. There are many people who search and look for a "flaw" and say "You See they are fake". That can be said of any church no matter which one it is. So if you guys do not mind can we get back to the subject of the Blessed Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus Christ, Second person in the Trinity the Son of God. Queen of heaven.

I am a Roman Catholic and I am not ashamed of the church of God.
rock22 I want to say with my heart that you are a good brother, but you need to know the truth also.

here look i will show you the madness in the roman western and eastern roman tradition.
this 1 hour video will show you a true chain of events between western roman catholics and eastern catholics.
this will also show you the true word of god.

and just one more note all though the eastern orthodox and western roman catholic did not get the message completrly from day one they still got the message of god.
but as the saying goes rome was not built in a day, this message aslo applys to todays eastern and roman catholics because you still have not got the message.
and the message is that we are all equal.

please watch Constantine the Great - YouTube
 
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Nov 22, 2012
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Thankyou for your anwser geo, and i feal the same way to,

can i ask you why you feel in your heart he is not ,

and pleas do not anwser with bible scripture
There are more then one reason.We aren't in communion for 1000years.That mean we do not recognize him as successor of Apostles.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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rock22 I want to say with my heart that you are a good brother, but you need to know the truth also.

here look i will show you the madness in the roman western and eastern roman tradition.
this 1 hour video will show you a true chain of events between western roman catholics and eastern catholics.
this will also show you the true word of god.

and just one more note all though the eastern orthodox and western roman catholic did not get the message completrly from day one they still got the message of god.
but as the saying goes rome was not built in a day, this message aslo applys to todays eastern and roman catholics because you still have not got the message.
and the message is that we are all equal.

please watch Constantine the Great - YouTube
If Holy Fathers of the Church from first milllenium of Christianity haven't got message from Gospel,then we can just speculate about that message.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
But Mary had a children,and what a children!It was Jesus Christ,right?
She did not have Jesus through sex with Joseph. No one in the Temple knew she was going to be Jesus' mother when they made the arrangement. As far as they knew, they were helping her to have a childless marriage on purpose. Jewish elders would not have done this without a special reason. I want to know the reason. If you can't find a reason, then it suggests that Mary and Joseph expected to have babies on their own, after they got married.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
I am a Roman Catholic and I am not ashamed of the church of God.
I think everyone needs to go wherever they feel God is sending them. By the same process of God as you went through, I belong to the whole Body of Christ. I think there is a difference between saying that something is true, and saying that something is proved by a specific Scripture. That is the distinction I am attempting to draw when I post to such things.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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[h=1]Did the Mother of God Enter the Temple? Confession of a Doubter[/h]
A friend once told me about an article on one religious website on the feast of the Entrance of the Most Pure Theotokos into the Temple. The article essentially stated that there was no entrance into the temple—that is what "many scholars" say, and as we know, "many scholars" make no mistakes. I remembered how ten or so years ago, I also did not believe in the historicity of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple, and thought myself quite smart and progressive for this. I believed that it was my own opinion, although in fact I had read it in something by one of the "many scholars" or even simply by someone who worships the scholars. The argument that seemed irrefutable to me consisted in that fact that this event is inconsistent with what we know about the ancient Jews' view of the temple, and even goes against certain rules (only males were allowed to enter the temple).
So I lived with that opinion, and then, let's say, ten years ago, I suddenly thought about it: haven’t I seen with my own eyes instances where exceptions have been made in church life? We are not talking about a breach of the rules, but about those exceptions that take place obviously by God's will—don't they indeed happen? There have been, and will be exceptions. They happen. That they happened during Old Testament times is something Christ Himself mention to the smarties of His time: But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? (Mt. 12:3–4).
Had the Lord not said these words, probably our modern-day smarties would cook up an article about how the episode with the wheat written in the twenty-fourth chapter of the first book of Kings, in the opinion of "many scholars" is no more than an idea because it contradicts the Law, and early Jewish traditions, which clearly state that it is always the priests' prerogative alone to eat the shew bread.
If there were, and still are exclusions, then the Theotokos's entrance into the temple could have been one—that is the thought that came to me. And if that is so, then the argument about which I had such a high opinion means nothing. One this is certain regarding the "many sholars": they were all people from the twentieth, at best nineteenth centuries, and not one of them lived during the time of the temple in Jerusalem of the first century B.C., which would have enabled them to give an authentic testimony about what did and didn't happen then. All that the "many scholars" have at their disposal are a small body of scattered information from written sources and their own imagination. Furthermore, any insufficiency in the former is always completed using a surplus of the latter. Only a person who is completely unlearned in historical scholarship could truly believe that historians have documented knowledge of every step and every gesture made two thousand years ago in one building in one city of the Roman Empire.
I knew, thank God, ten years ago as well that "many scholars" have at their disposal concerning such ancient events only scattered information from an extremely small amount of sources, upon which they try to build to a greater or lesser degree of probability theoretical conclusions about the state of affairs in a given era. This can work quite well for the ordinary course of events, but it is powerless before exceptions to the rule, especially those that did not manage to fall into historical sources written by eye-witnesses and preserved down to our day.
Thus, if the Virgin Mary's entrance into the temple could have taken place not as an ordinary event but as an exception, then the skepticism of "many scholars" in the twentieth century—no matter how many there are of them—means, to say the least, very little. It is not knowledge but soothsaying. But compared to the soothsaying of "many scholars" of the twentieth century, a second century historical source (the "Protevangelos of James"), which records the tradition of the entrance of the Virgin Mary into the temple as an authentic fact, is far more trustworthy, no matter how you slice it.
That is what I was thinking ten years ago, and I began to allow for the historicity of the entrance of the Theotokos into the temple; again I thought myself quite smart, although I was still just as much of a fool because I didn't understand that all of this is nonsense that has no relationship to the essence of things.
I will finally try to get to the point, but I will start from a distance.
Why did I get stuck back then on what I had read in someone's work about the non-historicity of the events to which this feast is dedicated? Why did I agree to it so easily? It was not his arguments that won me over. The reason is that both he and I were standing on the same initial position that led to the following axioms:
1. "Those who lived earlier were stupider than me."
2. "I myself can and should determine what is true, supporting myself with the conclusions drawn by my own reasoning."
This is why I so readily agreed with the idea I read or heard concerning the non-historicity of the feast of the Entrance into the Temple. He and I were proceeding from the same point of departure in the same direction, and therefore we would naturally come to the same thing—skepticism, and a justification of this skepticism. His idea turned out to be so infectious for me precisely because of this inner similarity and unanimous mindset. This is the root of what is called modernism; this root was planted in each of us from childhood, and it takes no little effort in order to tear it out of ourselves.
Only standing upon the above-mentioned axioms is it possible, without noticing the entire absurdity of such a combination, to consider ourselves believing Christians and yet suppose that we know better what the Virgin Mary did and didn't do than the Christians of the second century, than Sts. Herman and Tarasius of Constantinople, St. Gregory Palamas, and others who wrote about these events as facts; and finally, better than the Church herself, which instituted this feast.
But pride, even in such grotesque forms, is, so to say, half the problem. The other half is lack of faith, or simply no faith at all.
If you call yourself an Orthodox Christian, it means that you believe that there is an eternal God, Who is witness to all events in human history, Who reveals His truth to holy people both in former times and latter times; you believe that He created the Church, which is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15), against which the gates of hell shall not prevail (Mt. 16:18) and in which the Holy Spirit dwells, about Whom it is said: shall teach you all things (Jn. 14:26) and will guide you in all truth (Jn. 16:13). This means that you accept that "The Church cannot err or go astray, saying a lie instead of the truth; inasmuch as the Holy Spirit, always working through faithfully serving fathers and teachers of the Church, preserves it from all error" (Epistle of the Eastern Patriarchs on the Orthodox Faith, section 12). This means that you believe and accept in the Church what she has established and preaches as the truth, including the historical basis of the feast of the Entrance of the Most Pure Theotokos into the Temple.
If you consider the story of the entrance of the Most Pure Theotokos into the temple to be an invention and lie, then that means that you consider that the Church speaks a lie instead of the truth—after all this is all unambiguous, it is not simply the utterances of some people, not someone's "personal opinion", but one of the twelve feasts of the Church with a text of services generally accepted by the entire Church, with a host of patristic homilies on these events, etc.—then that means that the Holy Spirit does not preserve the Church from error and does not instruct in all truth; which means that either God lied, or He simply doesn't exist.
It's one or the other. Either you believe in God, or you do not believe.
Faith is when you trust in God more than in yourself. It is when you do not "establish truth" with your own mind, but recognize it from the One Who possesses it. If you only accept those of His words—revealed either in the Scriptures or through the Church—that you can understand with your own mind and agree to consider trustworthy, then there is no place left for faith; you believe not in God but in yourself. This is not faith—it is fakery.
But if you believe, then believe for real.
If God exists, then He is a witness to everything; if He created the Church and revealed the truth to her, that means that you need to believe the testimony of the Eye-witness even if this is not fashionable or popular in the eyes of the world, even if an unimaginable number of "many scholars" say otherwise.
Not accidentally does the Lord allow the existence and dissemination of modernistic ideas about the non-historicity of the Entrance into the Temple and other ideas like it. This is all for our benefit. The popularity of these ideas help us to distinguish the believers from those of little faith, and it helps a person to determine where he is in relation to God. It is like the theory of evolution. The world insists that people came from monkeys, but God in the Bible says that He created people from the earth. So take your pick, and see where you heart is—with God, or with the world.
But you will only truly begin to believe when you open yourself to God fully, without any "yes, but…", "all, except…", and "yes, only not…" Only then will miracles happen, and a life will begin that makes your former life seem no better than a somnambulistic existence.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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She did not have Jesus through sex with Joseph. No one in the Temple knew she was going to be Jesus' mother when they made the arrangement. As far as they knew, they were helping her to have a childless marriage on purpose. Jewish elders would not have done this without a special reason. I want to know the reason. If you can't find a reason, then it suggests that Mary and Joseph expected to have babies on their own, after they got married.
Kenieyes,there are an answer i am sure,if i ever find it i will tell u and to all here.I will try to fian a book of Holy Fathers who wrote actively on Theotokos and her childhood.Also,u could research this your question,but maybe the answer will be that she was Becoming a Living Temple of God A LIVING TEMPLE OF GOD and wanted to stay that,she didn't feel any need to have more childrens with man(hope u understood my point).That was her decision and she dedicated her life to God and left virgin until end of her earthly life.She is example to nuns and only virgins can be nuns.

But if u believe in all things that Orthodox believe,u would know that all the events that followed her life were leaded by God and revealed by Angels to priest Zecharias.I think that they had no doubt she will have be Mother of Messiah.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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Three Homilies of St. Nikolai Velimirovich on the Theotokos

Homily One: The Handmaid of the Lord

"And Mary said: 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord'" (Luke 1:38).

Here indeed, brethren, is a true handmaid of the Lord! If a handmaid is she who exchanges her will completely for the will of her Lord, then the Most-holy Virgin is the first among all of the Lord's handmaids. If a handmaid is she who, with intent and with complete attention, beholds her Lord, then again the Most-holy Virgin is the first among the handmaids of the Lord. If a handmaid is one who meekly and quietly endures all insults and trials, awaiting only the reward of her Lord, then again and again the Most-holy Virgin is the first and most excellent of all the handmaids of the Lord. She did not care to please the world, but only God; nor did she care to justify herself before the world, but only before God. She herself is obedience; she herself is service; she herself is meekness. The Most-holy Virgin could in truth say to the angel of God: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord." The greatest perfection, and the greatest honor that a woman can attain on earth, is to be a handmaid of the Lord. Eve lost this perfection and honor in Paradise without effort, and the Virgin Mary achieved this perfection and this honor outside Paradise with her efforts.

Through the prayers of the Most-holy Virgin Theotokos, O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. To Thee be glory and praise forever. Amen.


Homily Two: A Canticle From the Soul of the Theotokos


"My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46).


Brethren, we have in total only a few words spoken by the Most-holy Theotokos recorded in the Gospels. All of her words pertain to the magnification of God. She was silent before men but her soul conversed unceasingly with God. Every day and every hour, she found a new reason and incentive to magnify God. If only we were able to know and to record all her magnifications of God throughout her whole life, oh, how many books would it take! But, even by this one magnification, which she spoke before her kinswoman Elizabeth, the mother of the great Prophet and Forerunner John, every Christian can evaluate what a fragrant and God-pleasing flower was her most holy soul. This is but one wonderful canticle of the soul of the Theotokos, which has come down to us through the Gospel. However, such canticles were without number in the course of the life of the Most-blessed One. Even before she heard the Gospel from the lips of her Son, she knew how to speak with God and to glorify Him in accordance with the teaching of the Gospel. This knowledge came to her from the Holy Spirit of God, whose grace constantly poured into her like clear water into a pure vessel. Her soul magnified God with canticles throughout her whole life, and therefore God magnified her above the Cherubim and the Seraphim. Likewise, small and sinful as we are, the same Lord will magnify in His Kingdom us who magnify her, if we exert ourselves to fill this brief life with the magnification of God in our deeds, words, thoughts and prayers.

O Most-holy, Most-pure and Most-blessed Theotokos, cover us with the wings of thy prayers. To thee and thy Son and our Lord be glory and praise forever. Amen.

Homily Three: The Gospel Instruction of the Theotokos

"His mother saith unto the servants, 'Whatsoever He saith unto you, do it'" (John 2:5).

Here is joy for all the faithful: she who is closest to Christ the Savior in heaven, as she had been on earth, cares for the faithful, appears to them, helps them and advises them: "Whatsoever He, my Son and my God, saith unto you, do it." Thus, she advised the servants at the marriage in Cana, and the servants obeyed her and saw a miracle. From those few words of the Most-holy Virgin, God's Bride, recorded in the Gospel, we receive a precious instruction, truly the one and only Gospel instruction that she gave to mankind during her life on earth. Whatsoever He saith unto you, do it! As though she wanted to say: "He knows all; He can do all; He loves you all; therefore, you should look neither here nor there, but hear Him and obey Him." She comprehended the responsibility in this world of living for Him and directing others to Him as the Source of life, and she voluntarily continues carrying out this responsibility even from heaven. Throughout the Church's entire history, she has taught the faithful to do whatsoever He said. And even today, from her heavenly glory, she mystically descends among the faithful to counsel them to do that which He has commanded. That is her Gospel-the Gospel of the Most-holy Virgin, the Theotokos. It consists not of the Four Gospels but of four words: "Do whatsoever He saith." O my brethren, let us obey her! Let us obey her as a mother and more than our mother, for she desires the greatest good for us - to reign in the Eternal Kingdom of her Son.

O Most-holy Virgin, help us to fulfill His words. To Thee and to Him be glory and praise forever. Amen.
 
Dec 5, 2012
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Remember the corrupt church as you guys out it, gave you the bible. Now you say that it came from God. That same faith you guys place on this one event that lasted many years, it is the same faith we as Roman Catholics have for any decision from the church trough her infallibility has made since the very beginning.

This is when I saw the true meaning of faith in God. If I am to have faith this corrupted church as the world wants to see her, was guided by God and gave us the book of the bible. What gives me the right to say God left them for the rest of the infallible decisions of His church. This is where I put my Faith, in God not men as many try to paint it.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
Kenieyes,there are an answer i am sure,if i ever find it i will tell u and to all here.I will try to fian a book of Holy Fathers who wrote actively on Theotokos and her childhood.Also,u could research this your question,but maybe the answer will be that she was Becoming a Living Temple of God A LIVING TEMPLE OF GOD and wanted to stay that,she didn't feel any need to have more childrens with man(hope u understood my point).That was her decision and she dedicated her life to God and left virgin until end of her earthly life.She is example to nuns and only virgins can be nuns.

But if u believe in all things that Orthodox believe,u would know that all the events that followed her life were leaded by God and revealed by Angels to priest Zecharias.I think that they had no doubt she will have be Mother of Messiah.
I have thought of all these answers. There could have been a revelation from God. Okay, then why did Joseph not know, and had to be told by the angel? There could have been something so special about Mary. Okay, then why was there no mention of it in the Protoevangelion, where you got the legend of Joseph and the staffs budding? I believe Mary's parents may have wanted her to be a virgin. I believe Mary may have wanted to be a virgin. This is what I was told as a Roman Catholic, but I can find no evidence of this in any of the actual traditions. Without some statement, for the elders in the temple to involve all these older men in a special event so they could pick a man who would not want children, is a lot of commitment. Someone would have written it down.

The problem is, it makes sense the other way. They would have easily asked: "What older man will take Mary under his wing? She is now 16, and has been trained in the Temple. She knows the Law and lives by it. She would make a great wife for an older man, who is committed to the Law, and can bear him children." They did that a lot, I'm sure.

Without the actual early writing, the other way makes better sense. It's easier to assume the Protoevangelion was written by a renegade group, like the one Paul condemns in Corinthians, when he says "He who marries, commits no sin". We are both aware such extreme groups existed.

You are committed to Orthodoxy. I am committed to Jesus, and recognize truth in everyone. I also realize that even the Fathers were human, and can make a mistake. I want to be certain they did not make a mistake.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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Remember the corrupt church as you guys out it, gave you the bible. Now you say that it came from God. That same faith you guys place on this one event that lasted many years, it is the same faith we as Roman Catholics have for any decision from the church trough her infallibility has made since the very beginning.

This is when I saw the true meaning of faith in God. If I am to have faith this corrupted church as the world wants to see her, was guided by God and gave us the book of the bible. What gives me the right to say God left them for the rest of the infallible decisions of His church. This is where I put my Faith, in God not men as many try to paint it.
Rock,without any offend,i want to ask u,whay some canons are changed and some new dogmas are created?I am sure that i can give u all of them,because on one didn't hide that.