Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

Rock022 · Dec 24, 2012

Luke 1:42-43
How can we deny Mary the mother of God when it is clearly written? It can not be more clear than this. To think otherwise is to say the bible is wrong.

KJV
Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

21 century KJV
And she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And why is it granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

NIV
In a loud voice she called out, “God has blessed you more than other women. And blessed is the child you will have! 43 But why is God so kind to me? Why has the mother of my Lord come to me?

Amplified Bible
And she cried out with a loud cry, and then exclaimed, Blessed (favored of God) above all other women are you! And blessed (favored of God) is the Fruit of your womb!
43 And how [have I deserved that this honor should] be granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

Who denies Mary was the mother of Christ?
I know not one.

Rock022 · Dec 24, 2012

So for the record, Catholicism is heresy. That's what the admins of this site believe.

Mary WAS A SINNER.

She needed a savior, just like you and me.

She is NOT the "mother of God". God has no mother, because God is God.

Geometar · Dec 24, 2012

Rock022 said:

Mary indeed is human as u and me and according to that she is sinner and she also needed a Savior as u and me.This is normal thing and i hope that u all understand this.I heard that Roman Catholic holding some other teaching which is totally wrong.Those r changed cannons which point Mary as human being without sin and that is impossible!
God is God,but for incarnation of 2nd person of Holy Trinity which is Jesus Christ the Messiah on earth in a human body He needed a woman to born that Godman Jesus Christ which Old Testament Prophets spoke of("Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel." Isaiah 7:14).According to that,she is mother of Godman Jesus Christ,Ever-Virgin Theotokos.

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

Yes Geometar,
Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus.
We all agree.
But she was betrothed to Joseph. And they eventually got married and had
material children through their physical union.
Do you not believe this?

Geometar · Dec 24, 2012

RickShafer said:

If u read and u are probably what Orthodox Church says,then u will understand what ment marriage of Mary and Joseph and who was he.And that what u said "eventualy" mean maybe or who knows.And no one of u isnt sure in that.But there were people around her and they knew who was Joseph to Mary and what ment their "marriage" .That is normal thing,what do u think?

Brother_Don · Dec 24, 2012

Mary is chosen by God, highly favored, to bring Christ Jesus into the world. But remember what Jesus said when the multitude sat around Him? The multitude was saying, your mother, and brethren, are looking for you. Christ Jesus said, whoever shall do the will of God, is my brother, and sister, and mother. Mark 3:32-35. I'm not trying to take nothing from Mary as being Jesus mother, just sharing Jesus words on this subject.

kenisyes · Dec 24, 2012

I have always found it so curious that there are major, and large, groups who will accept/deny any combination of:
Mary was a sinner/conceived without sin
Mary was always a virgin/later had children by Joseph
Mary is/is not necessary as a go-between to Jesus
Mary was assumed bodily to heaven/was buried as most people.

There are actually people who believe that if you say a rosary and go to communion on 9 consecutive first Saturdays of the month, you cannot die in sin and go to hell.

My wife was always quick to point out that in "apparitions", Mary almost always appears as a northern European, rather than an Israelite woman. She noted that did not seem right, somehow....

I haven't listed any of the things believed by smaller groups.

What is your opinion: Do you suppose she made chicken soup when Joseph had a cold? How about potato pancakes for Hannukah? Did she argue with Joseph over what carpentry tools were safe enough for Jesus to use when He was 8 years old? Did she have anything to do with making Jesus that seamless garment the soldiers cast lots for?

There's a lot more to being the mother of God than the great stories that get handed down. Just like there's a lot more to having Jesus in you than what stories you tell.

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

There are two witnesses in the gospels of Jesus' blood relations:

Mark 6:2,3King James Version (KJV):

2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, andSimon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Matthew 13:54,55King James Version (KJV):

54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

(These are plainly stated in the Bible.)

twofeet · Dec 24, 2012

I guess alot of people who believe Mary was without sin do not get the deep understanding of what was going on. The original sin is actually passed on through the male seed, and as we all have a dad we have the sin. But of course Jesus didn't have a natural Father so it wasnt passed on, the chain was broken. Interesting that even in the muslim faith where Jesus is a prophet to them, he is STILL the only one of all their prophets without a natural Father. Mary also said when she went to visit Elizabeth she says " my soul glorifies the Lord and rejoices in God MY Saviour"......what does she need saving from if she was without sin? Then of course you add on what RickShafer has said, Mary having more kids. I mean seriously, can you imagine Joseph NEVER wanted to have sex with his wife! That goes against Gods plan for marriage!!!!! And God does not change, He is the same yesterday today and forever. I guess people will always try and make Mary out to be something more than she was....YES she was blessed that God picked her for the job but she is in the same boat as everyone else.

Geometar · Dec 24, 2012

twofeet said:

Ok,i must post explanation here.

The 'brothers' of our Lord

On the Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos (Mother of God)

by Bishop Lazar Puhalo The Orthodox Church has always proclaimed the Ever-Virginity of Mary, the Mother of our God (Theotokos). The verse referring to Mary's "Firstborn" has been misinterpreted by a countless number of the heterodox.

"...and he knew her not up to [Greek = eos] her having brought forth her firstborn son..." (Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7).

This verse seems to be often translated as "he knew her not until after..." This is not, however, what is meant. The Greek original, "eos", indicates the true meaning, of "he had no sexual relations with her prior to her giving birth." The Evangelist makes this statement in order to assure us that Joseph had no part in the conception of Jesus. The term eos ou does not require the understanding that he had relations with her after Christ was born. It merely indicates that, as regards the birth of Jesus, Joseph had not had relations with Mary prior to the birth, thus, he was not the father of Jesus. This is merely a usual turn of phrase, the use of a standard and familiar form of expression. This same term and meaning is used elsewhere in the Bible as a standard expression, and it clearly does not indicate what the heterodox (non-Orthodox) claim it does. At 2 Samuel 6:23, for instance, we read, "And Milchal, the daughter of Saul, had no child until [eos] her death. Did she, then, have children after her death? Of course not!, and neither did Joseph "know" Mary after the birth of Jesus. At Genesis 8:7, we read that Noah "sent forth a raven; and it went forth and did not return till [eos] after the water had gone from off the face of the earth." We know from Scripture that in fact, the raven never returned to the ark. It says that it did not return "until after," but in fact, it never returned at all. The Scripture says that "Joseph knew her not till after...", but in fact, he never "knew" her at all. In another example, the Bible says, 'The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until [eos] I make Thine enemies Thy footstool" (Mark 12:36). Does this mean that Christ will cease to sit at the right hand of the glory of the Father once His enemies have been overcome? Of course not ! Hence, the Bible does not say that "Joseph knew her not until after she brought forth her first born, but then he did." The Bible says, "He did not know her before (up until) she had brought forth her firstborn," meaning simply and clearly, "Joseph was not the father. He had not come together with her before her pregnancy, thus he was not involved in the conception of Jesus."
The Sacred Tradition concerning these matters is certainly derived from Mary's own testimony and, like all things in the Church, it is guided and guarded by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Mary was, in fulfilment of the Mosaic Law, betrothed to Joseph, an older man who was in fact her own uncle (as the Holy Spirit guided Sacred Tradition tells us). Thus their "marriage" was a marriage which, according to the Mosaic Law did not allow for sexual intercourse between them, because she was the bearer of the inheritance, her Firstborn, the Messiah. The term Firstborn means simply that. It does not imply any further births, but simply describes the first. In the Mosaic law the first born of any female (human or even animal) has religious significance, and this is why Jesus as Firstborn is emphasised.
Finally, you might ask "how is it physically possible for Mary to remain a virgin after the birth of Christ ?" The simple answer, as given in the Scriptures is "With men this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible." (Matt. 19:26)
The meaning and identity of the "Brothers of Jesus"

Who were the "brethren of the Lord" (Matthew 12:46-47), and if He had brothers, why do we call the Theotokos "Ever-Virgin" ?
The "brethren" of Jesus are mentioned several times in the New Testament. Four are mentioned by name. To explain who they were is not difficult, because the Scripture itself names four of them and identifies their parentage. Matthew (13:55) and Mark (6:3) list, as brethren of Jesus, James, Joses, Simon and Jude.
We know for certain that James and Joses were not sons of Mary or Joseph, for the Scripture identifies them, as children of a different Mary, who was the wife of Alphaeus-Cleopas (Matthew 27:56 ; Mark 15:40). James is also referred to as the "son of Alphaeus", in the listing of the Apostles (Matthew 10:3 ; Mark 3:18 ; Luke 6:15 ; Acts 1:13). The relationship between these "brethren" (including "sisters") must be seen in the context of Hebrew-Aramaic tradition, according to which even cousins were called brothers and sisters. This is the case also in Greek and Slavic languages and cultures to this day, so we do not have to speculate about it. This is a fact we know very well from our own families and lives. We have a perfect example of this in the Old Testament Scripture. The word used to describe the relationship between Lot and Abraham at Genesis 14:16 is "adelphi" in the original Greek, which can only be translated as "brother" in English. Nevertheless, we know that Lot was Abraham's nephew. The Greek word "adelphos" and "adelphi" are only attempts to translate an unknown Aramaic word - and no one has any idea what the actual word was which is rendered in Greek and English as "brothers" or "brethren".
There could have been no "first blood" brothers of Christ, otherwise He would not have given the care of His mother to St. John the Theologian (John 19:26) at the foot of the Cross. Indeed, Christ would have done His 'brothers' great disrespect and harm if He had done this ! The Old Testament prophecies explain the virginal marriage and ever-virginity of Christ's mother, and we also have the testimony of the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church that Mary is "Ever-Virgin".
Further evidence from the Holy Scriptures that in the Hebrew tradition "brothers" and "sisters" are not necessarily siblings. Our Orthodox Tradition teaches us that the Holy Virgin Mary was the only child of Saints Joakhim and Anna, but at John 19:25 we read, "Standing near the Cross of Jesus was His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary of Klopas, and Mary magdala." If our Church history is correct, how could Mary have had a sister? The first clue to our answer is that both women are named Mary. ! No family has two daughters and gives them both the same name! Therefore it is evident that the relationship between the two women has to be something different than our modern English concept of "sister". The second clue to our answer is that the Bible clearly identifies this Mary of Klopas (Cleopas in KJV), as the mother of Jesus' "brothers". The name Klopas or Cleopas is the same as Alphaeus in the Aramaic language which Jesus spoke. Therefore the so-called brothers of Jesus mentioned at Mark 6:3 are elsewhere clearly identified as the sons of Alphaeus and his wife Mary of Klopas - the "sister" of the Virgin Mary.
Thus the Scriptures show that the "brothers" of Christ are not His brothers, but some relation. There is no scriptural evidence to support the notion that the Virgin Mary bore any other children apart from Jesus Christ our God.
Seeing Him born as an infant in Bethlehem. Let all creation glorify Him!
All Glory be to Jesus Christ our God.

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

But why is the fact that she is a virgin(remains such), so important to you?
You are caught up in the ideal of her purity.
How is her virginal purity going to save you?
Is she your queen?
Has she become a co-redeemer to you?
Do you want to know why she has?
Do you want to know why that particular point is made so fervently in your liturgies?
Go back and research the history of the church after it was incorporated into the Roman Empire's State religion.
Just do some research man, and stop taking someone's word for it.

Geometar · Dec 24, 2012

RickShafer said:

As i told u,we need her prayers and prayers of the saints because they r veru powerful intermediaries.They can hear our prayers by the Grace and can multiple them.By their prayers God gives His mercy on us sinners.Lord Jesus Christ have great love for His mother,and she have the higher rank in His Kingdom.She is the Ark of the Covenant.That is why we do all this things.

A prayer to the Most Holy Theotokos, by St Peter of Damascus

Blessed Queen of the universe,
thou knowest that we sinners have no intimacy with God whom thou hast borne.
But, putting our trust in thee,
through thy mediation we thy servants prostrate ourselves before the Lord:
for thou canst freely approach Him since He is thy son and our God.
Thus I, too, unworthy believer that I am, entreat thee, holy Queen,
that I may be allowed to perceive the gifts of grace bestowed on thee
and on the other saints,
and to understand how thou dost display so many virtues.
Simply thy giving birth to the Son of God shows that thou excellest all other beings.
For He Who, as creator of all,
knows all things before they come into existence,
found thy womb worthy of His indwelling.

Luther also espoused the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God, as did, surprisingly enough, Calvin and Zwingli. The attempt to completely remove the Mother of God from the record (Mary reduced to a mere "vessel", or the notion that she and Joseph had further children) appeared centuries later in protestant thought and belief.

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

Geometar,
This prayer is not biblical.
You are following the vain traditions of men.
You are making unto yourself a co-redeemer.
Unless you can find a place in scripture(not church teachings), where men prayed to dead saints, you have no leg to stand on.
I'm serious with this!
Show me in scripture where believers used dead saints to be their mediators,........between them and Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's Not There!

Geometar · Dec 24, 2012

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp
Prayer and the Departed Saints
On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints
http://www.forthelife.org/a9.htm

Intercession of Saints - Orthodox Christian Resource Center

Intercession of Saints

Christians are asked to pray for each other all throughout Scripture.
We pray for our relatives, friends etc. We pray for the well being of all Creation in our Orthodoxy liturgy and namaskarams.
This is known as Intercession. (“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;”-1 timothy 2:1)
Protestants too believe in Intercession for the “living”. But they have a hard time accepting that we cannot ask the earthly departed Saints to pray for us.
The argument is “since they are dead they cannot pray for us”.
Now the question is are the Saints really “dead” that they cannot pray for us??.
And how did this practise originate? Where are the scriptural references to Intercession?? Is it really required??..Isnt Christ the sole Mediator??..etc.
Let us deal with this topic now.
Mediation and Intercession.
“MEDIATION” and “INTERCESSION” are different.
Read 1 Timothy, Chapter 2, verses 1-5.
1)Christians intercede for each other.(Intercession)
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;”–1 timothy 2:1
2)Christ Mediates for each of us.(Mediation)
” For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”–1 timothy 2:5
In 1 Timothy chapter 2 verse 1 , St.Paul calls upon christians to pray for each other.
In 1 timothy chapter 2 verse 5 (just 4 verses below), St.Paul says Christ is the only mediator.
Christ is the Only Mediator. But that does not mean we dont pray for each other(Intercession).
The same St.Paul who asks Christians to pray for each other, tells just one sentence later that Christ is the Only Mediator.
That means Intercession and Mediation and two different things. Othervise St.Paul is contradicting himself in the same breath.
One Mediator.
What does Christ mediate?
In Oriental Orthodox faith, we believe Jesus Christ was Full Man and Full God.
Miaphysitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Miaphysitism (sometimes called henophysitism) is the christology of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Miaphysitism holds that in the one person of Jesus Christ, Divinity and Humanity are united in one “nature” (“physis”), the two being united without separation, without confusion, and without alteration.”
Christ is the only human being who was also Full God. Human and Deity are joined together in Christ.
Thus Christ is a Bridge between Humanity and Divinity.
The fact that God became flesh, a human being offers sanctification to the Flesh and it offers salvation to Mankind.
If God didnt became a human, humans could never aspire to reach Godlikeness(restored image of the first human/Adam).
Thus Jesus Christ is the Bridge between Humanity and Divinity. No other human is the Mediator.
Christ Mediates between both natures- Godhood and Manhood. In Him both are One.
Many Intercessors.
1.Who are Intercessors?
Ans:-Intercessors are people who pray for us to Jesus Christ.
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;”–1 Timothy 2:1
We can be intercessors for our friends or relatives when we pray for them to Jesus Christ.
2.What is the need for Intercessors when i can pray directly to Jesus Christ?
Ans:- “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.”–James 5:16
A humble and honest heart will be wise enough to understand that some people’s prayers carry more “power” and “effectiveness” by virtue of the Righteousness.
Who is more righteous than us? We are living in the age of Spiritual Arrogance, where everyone supposes he is holier than the other.
Abraham’s intercession saved Lot’s family from destruction.(Genesis 18:23-32)
It was because Abraham was more righteous than Lot or anyone in Sodom Gomorrah.
Moses’ intercession for the people of God, in pleading with the Lord for mercy, held back the hand of God from consuming the nation in His wrath. ( Exodus 32:7-14; Deuteronomy 9:8-9, 12-20, 23-27, etc.; Psalms )106:23
But an Intercessor does not Mediate between Godhood and Manhood.
An Intercessor prays/intercedes to the One Mediator(Jesus Christ) on our behalf.
The Saints are spiritually alive!!
The Christian Saints like St.Mary, St.Thomas, St.Gregorios of Parumala, etc are people who have attained a high degree of Theosis.
Theosis refers to Transformation into Christlikeness or Godlikeness.
Keep in mind that Man(Adam) was created in the Image of God and didnt have death. Death/Mortality came about only after Adam and Eve’s sin(Fall of Man).
God punished Man by Mortality/Death only after his sin and after he became astray from his true image, which was in the likeness of God.
“By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”–Genesis 3:19
Christians who achieve a high degree of Christlikeness are Restored into the state Adam was prior to his sin.
(That state where he is in the Image of God and didnt have death.)
Christians become One with the Body of Christ by eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood(Holy Eucharist/Qurbana).
If we are one with the Body of Christ who is immortal, and spiritually alive, then we are spiritually alive too.
If anyone says a true christian saint who is Christlike and part of his Body is “dead”, then they are saying Jesus Christ is dead too!!
Scripture says the Saints are alive.
“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” -Revelations 8:3
“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS. “–Revelations 5:8
“My body rests in hope. For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.” —Acts 2:27,28
“Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. –Psalms 16:9,10
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”(1 Corinthians 15:22)
“Today you will be with me in Paradise”.
ENOCH in the OT was someone who was “carried up into heaven” before death.
ELIJAH in the OT was also said to be “carried up into heaven”.
These people never died an earthly death and went up into heaven before that. Then it is possible for the christian saints too, even after their earthly martyrdom or death.
PARADISE
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the TREE of LIFE, which is in the PARADISE* of GOD.”–Revelations 2:7
Luke chapter 23 :-
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]”
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” —Luke 23.
The good thief was promised Paradise by Jesus the same day itself.
Obviously the Good Thief did not go to paradise to “die” or to “sleep”. He is spiritually alive in Paradise.
How much more it is possible for the “Holy Ark which carried God’s presence”(St.Mary)…how much more for St.Peter who was martyred for Christ,….how much for St.Thomas who touched God’s wounds to be Spiritually Alive in Paradise?
Even in death the righteous have a Refuge.
“When calamity comes, the wicked are brought down,
but even in death the righteous have a refuge.”– Proverbs 14:32.
What is this “refuge” of the righteous that they find even in death?. The same refuge the good thief got, Elijah and Enoch got?
In 2 Maccabees, Judas Maccabaeus sees the dead Onias and Jeremiah giving blessing to the Jewish army.
["Onias then said of him, "This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city."--2 Maccabees 15:14]
Archangel Raphael intercedes for Tobit:
“I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.
When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead,I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.
I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.” –Tobit 12:12-15
The Church(Body of Christ) is timeless.
The Christian Church is the Body of Christ, which is Immortal, and timeless.
It transcends Space and Time and Christ has defeated Death.
“The True Church is composed of all who are in Christ – in heaven and on earth. It is not limited in membership to those presently alive. Those in heaven with Christ are alive, in communion with God, worshipping God, doing their part in the body of Christ. They actively pray to God for all those in the Church – and perhaps, indeed, for the whole world (Ephesians 6:8; Revelation 8:3). So we intercede to the choir of all saints who have departed this life, seeking their prayers, even as we ask Christian friends on earth to pray for us.”
The Church is composed of all christians who lived, who are living and who are yet to be born!
In Orthodox tradition, a red carpet is laid at the center of the Church, signifying the presense of the departed souls as well in the worship.
Similarly the Saints who are also in heaven participate in our Qurbana.
The western concept is very rational, scientific or rather secular, which believes the Church includes only the particular generation of christians of their time.
Tree of Life
Adam and Eve couldnt eat the Fruit of the SECOND TREE.
God send them out of Eden and assigned angels to guard this tree, so that NO man could eat this!
24 “After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.” –Genesis 3:24
No man could ever taste the FRUIT of the TREE of LIFE.
But one Man did—JESUS CHRIST!….(he was Full Man and Full GOD)…He tasted Immortality and Life!!
In Orthodox Christian liturgy there is a hymn during the Baptism ceremony when the new born baby is given the Holy Qurbana appam and wine for the first time, a part of which goes like this:
“Aadam ruchi nokaatha Bhalam” (The Fruit that Adam couldnt taste).
We believe that this FRUIT is the FLESH and BLOOD of Christ.
Which is why we sing “Aadam ruchi nokaatha bhalam” when we give the baby his first Qurbana(bread and wine–flesh and blood of Christ).
If Satan tempted Man by offering this shortcut to Divinity, Man was tempted and disobeys God. God punished Man and send him out of Eden and he loses his touch with God.
But the same God redeems Mankind out of his kindness and indescribable Love by sending his Son.
HE gives them a taste of the Fruit of the TREE of LIFE.
The Fruit of the TREE of LIFE in Genesis, is nothing but the Blood and Flesh of Christ.
Partaking in which, we become One with the Body of Christ and thus attain salvation and thus Immortality, which Eve craved for, resulting in her sin.
But later God himself offers it to Man through the great Sacrifice of Christ:
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the RIGHT TO EAT from the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the paradise of God.’– Revelations 2:7
Those who have aten this Fruit(Flesh and Blood of Christ) and become Christlike(restored image of Man) cannot be spiritually dead at any point of time. And hence they can pray for us like the ones on earth.

Geometar · Dec 24, 2012

Difference from Roman Catholic concept.
St.Mary is the Queen of the Saints.
She is compared to the Burning Bush in the desert which Moses saw which remained unscathed by the flames.
This is because St.Mary, a frail human being could conceive and hold in her womb the Creator without herself being destroyed!..
She is considered the greatest of Intercessors because of this.
But Roman Catholics are teaching that St.Mary is also a Mediator like Jesus Christ.
She is assigned the names “Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix” in Roman Catholicism.
She is thus elevated above other planes and made an equal to Christ.
The Orthodox give no such teaching. We strictly differentiate between the sole mediator and Intercessors.
Saintly Intercession in early Christianity.
On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints
St. John the Evangelist (AD+101)
“And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc., viii, 3, 4)”
St. Cyprian of Carthage (AD+258),
“Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father.”
St. Hilary of Poitiers (+368)
To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defences of angels are wanting.[v]
St. Ephraim the Syrian (+373)
Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights against me day by day.[vi]
Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him.[vii]
St. Athanasius the Great, Patriarch of Alexandria (+373)
Christ became man that men might become gods[viii]
“In one of his letters, St. Basil [the Great] explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God. (Letter 360) Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers. ( Chapter 8 )
Saintly Intercession in early Christianity(contnd)
On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints
St. Basil the Great, of Caesarea in Asia Minor (+379)
“We beseech you, O most holy martyrs, who cheerfully suffered torments and death for his love, and are now more familiarly united to him, that you intercede with God for us slothful and wretched sinners, that he bestow on us the grace of Christ, by which we may be enlightened and enabled to love him”.[xi]
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (+386)
“We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions.”[xiv]
St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople; b. Antioch, Syria (+407)
“When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies . . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power [parresian, "boldness of speech"].[xxi]
St. Gregory of Nyssa in Lower Armenia (+395-400)
“This men then began to proclaim the miracle performed by the martyrs and acknowledged the kindness bestowed by these fellow soldiers…. We who freely and boldly enter paradise are strengthened by the [martyrs'] intercession through a noble confession in our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen”.[xvii]
St. Jerome, b. Dalmatia, d. Palestine (+419)
“If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won!
One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ?”
Veneration of Saints and Worship of God.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp
“In the Orthodox Church the worship (latreia) given to God is completely different from the honor (tim) of love (agape) and respect, or even veneration (proskynesis), “paid to all those endowed with some dignity” (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. III, 40).
The Orthodox honor the saints to express their love and gratitude to God, who has “perfected” the saints. As St. Symeon the New Theologian writes, “God is the teacher of the Prophets, the co-traveller with the Apostles, the power of the Martyrs, the inspiration of the Fathers and Teachers, the perfection of all Saints … ”
Throughout early Christianity, Christians customarily met in the places where the martyrs had died, to build churches in their honor, venerate their relics and memory, and present their example for imitation by others.
Interesting information on this subject derives from the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (ch. 17-18), according to which the early Christians reverently collected the remains of the saints and honored them “more than precious stones.” They also met on the day of their death to commemorate “their new birthday, the day they entered into their new life, in Heaven.”
To this day the Orthodox have maintained the liturgical custom of meeting on the day of the saint’s death, of building churches honoring their names, and of paying special respect to their relics and icons. The Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.), in summarizing this practice of the Church, declares that “we adore and respect God our Lord; and those who have been genuine servants of our common Lord we honor and venerate because they have the power to make us friends with God the King of all.”
The earliest christian churches(from first century Ad itself) were built atop the tombs of the martyrs and saints. By third century AD(ie 200-300 AD) the feasts of saints started to be observed.
What does “prayer to the saints” mean?
http://www.forthelife.org/a9.htm
I. What does “prayer” mean? Generally six Greek words for prayer as translated in different versions, fall into 5 general categories:
a. supplications/intercessions, James 5:5 Prayer of faith will save the sick. I Thess. 5:25 Pray for us, 2 Cor. 9:14 prayer on behalf of the Corinthians, etc.
b. beseeching, Lk. 1:13, 2:37 “fasting and prayer night and day”, Rom. 10:1 “heart’s desire”
James 5:6 effectual fervent prayer.
c. petitions, requests/desires Matt. 21:22 Ask in prayer, believing.
d. worship, Matt 21:13 “house of prayer”, Acts 2:42 “continuing in THE prayers and breaking of bread”, Acts 3:1 “hour of prayer in the temple”, I Cor. 7:5 “fasting and prayer”
“Prayer” is JUST ASKING: Luke 14:18 “I pray thee excuse me”, Acts 10:48 Cornelius prayed Peter to tarry, Acts 16:9 Macedonian call “Praying to Paul saying, “Come!”, Acts 24:4. Paul to Felix: I pray you give us a brief hearing”. The King James translates this word accurately. Most modern translations “fudge” it, but this is technically correct. “Pray” merely means to “ask”or request something of someone.
What do Orthodox Christians mean when we say “Prayer to the saints”?
WE DO NOT MEAN WORSHIP! “Praying to the saints” is merely requesting/asking them to intercede for us, pray for us. THIS IS BIBLICAL LANGUAGE! BUT…if it offends, we can use non-biblical language and just say we are asking the saints for their prayers. (We will deal with whether THAT is Biblical later….)
The hymnology of the Church expresses our relationship to the saints: The hymns about the saints almost always end with “Intercede for us to Christ our God to save our souls”. Note that we do not worship them, or equate them to Christ or God, but merely ask that they intercede for us TO CHRIST, or in modern language, we ask them to pray for us just as we ask any other good Christian friend or pastor to pray for us.
http://www.forthelife.org/a9.htm
Intercession of Archangel Raphael
“I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.
When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead,
I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.
I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”—Tobit 12: 12-15
Intercession in the Old Testament.
The Prophet Jeremiah prays for the people of Israel(many years after he had died the physical death and departed from material life):-
“What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in appearance, gentle in manners, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood in every virtuous practice, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.
Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air about him of extraordinary, majestic authority.
Onias then said of him, “This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city.”—-2 Maccabees 15: 12-14
Links
1)Intercession & Commemoration of the Saints
http://www.coloradocopts.org/saints.html
“The Orthodox Church DOES NOT worship Saints. The worship of Saints is expressly forbidden by the Church. However, Intercession to the Saints is practiced and encouraged by the Orthodox Church. Why?
Because physical death is not a defeat for a Christian. It is a glorious passage into heaven. The Christian does not cease to be a part of the Church at death. God forbid! Nor is he set aside, idle until the day of judgment. ”
2)Apologetic on the Orthodox belief in intercession.
by H.H. Pope Shenouda III
(117th Pope of Alexandria, and successor of the see of St. Mark)
Yahoo! Groups
“Our Church believes in the intercession of the Virgin Mary, the Angels and the
Saints. Those who don’t share our view regarding the intercession of the saints,
usually cite 1Jn 2:1: “We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous”. They also cite St. Paul: “For there is one God, and one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1Ti 2:5)
In support of this important dogma, our church emphasizes the following:
There is a major and essential difference between the Advocacy of our Lord
and that of the Saints: the Advocacy of Christ is a propitiatory one…”
3)February 6, 2005
Prayer to the Saints – Part 3: The State of the Dead
PRAYER TO SAINTS III
http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/Program Notes/saints3_020605.htm
“Consciousness continues with the spirit after the death of the body. “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord…” (Rev. 14:13) The soul is the seat of conciousness, the mind is not something apart from the soul, but its purest part, since what the eyes are to the body, such is the mind to the soul. The soul that sins it will “die”, but “death” is not unconciousness or annihilation, it is a state of being in relationship to God who is Life”

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

All that to tell me how to pray to the departed?
Only one is worthy.
Only one was pointed to from Gen. 3:15 to Revelation 22:20.
His name is Jesus.
Hear ye Him. - (The saints you venerate did)

Geometar · Dec 24, 2012

RickShafer said:

U will have to rise much much more in faith to understand what all those articles speaking of.The main thing is that u rised as Protestant without any understanding of what ancient Church teaching.I am here just to show u the Truth.

ICXC NIKA

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

Yes Geometar, the saints are alive indeed.
For Jesus said "I am a God of the living, and not the dead".
But I ask you......what made them alive?
Who made them living to this day, and throughout eternity?
Was it not Jesus? And His propitiatory offering?
Who lived a perfect life and obeyed even to the death of the cross?
Was it Mary?
Was it Jeremiah?
Was it ...............(you tell me)

RickShafer · Dec 24, 2012

Geometar said:

Listen to your own claim!
That you will make me perfect by showing me the true meanings of the church fathers?
You strive to make me pray to other souls who trusted in the Messiah, instead of going straight to THAT VERY SAME MESSIAH.
You are introducing other intermediaries which come between me and my Savior!
How, in any way can you think this is a good thing?
You have no scripture,(except what was made up by your church).
You said Jeremiah prayed for people who were already dead. In this you are mistaken.
Jeremiah prophecied of future events, he didn't pray for the past, he foretold the future through the Holy Spirit.

Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

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