Old Earth/Young Earth

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Aug 25, 2013
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#81
Dec 12, 2013
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#82
This is the vantage point for the Gen 1 narrative...above the surface of an ocean-covered earth that is completely blanketed with clouds so that sun light cannot penetrate.
So...was it here already? Does it say God created it and then created creation out of it! Or is it die to HEBREW structure...by the way I will take the land in IOWA hahah!
 
C

Calminian

Guest
#83
Fossil remains would give you the answer. Carnivores require a different set of teeth and a different gut. Now we can even study the genome so you could prove, or disprove, that lions in Adam's time ate plants. Do you know of any creation scientists searching for remains that would prove the case for Genesis?

I believe DNA has been retrieved from bones that are as much as 70,000 years old. Oh, Neanderthals ate meat, or did they use those big spears for killing plants? :)

All kidding aside, an ancient earth is so well supported by every line of research that no reasonable person doubts it.
Ever seen a fruit bat? Those are some sharp teeth for fruit consumption. And what about bears that are mostly vegetarian? Their teeth work just fine for eating plants and plants products. And what about us, who eat meat?? We actually thrive on meat, yet we have "vegetarian teeth."

Now it's interesting that you would look for remains of pre-fallen animals, but why? If they didn't die until after the curse, why would you expect to find their remains? The fossil record contains only animals in the postlapsarian world.

I'm curious, do you also deny the biblical curse, in which God altered the world? Just asking.

Now I can see you reject the Bible timeline in favor of naturalistic ideas about origins. Neanderthals, BTW, most certainly ate meat, and existed after the flood. And we know that neanderthals hung out with humans and intermarried with them. That means they were human.

you may want to check out a book on neanderthals by Jack Cuozzo ..., called Buried Alive. He actually personally x-rayed several specimens himself. He believes they were simply humans that lived much longer than we do today, and their bone developments were the result of age.

This corresponds to the biblical record that says Shem and the other early descendants of Noah lived to be much older than we do today. Shem lived 500 years after the flood, for instance, and would have outlived several of his descendants. I think he likely looked like the superior Neanderthal, with a much larger brain, and superior physique.

Regarding evidence, I believe the testimony of scripture to be the most well preserved reliable evidence on our history. Nothing else comes close. I choose it over all other lines. I'm curious why you give it such little weight.
 
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C

Calminian

Guest
#84
This is the vantage point for the Gen 1 narrative...above the surface of an ocean-covered earth that is completely blanketed with clouds so that sun light cannot penetrate.
I would disagree, and say this isn't a possible interoperation. Moses said God made the heavens earth sea and all that is in them in six days (ex. 20:11). Clouds in scripture are said to be in the heavens, and thus were made within the 6 days, not before.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth,a the sea, and all that is in them, but he restedb on the seventh day.c Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

This is incidentally the main passage the pulled me away from the gap theory, though I went from the pot to frying pan into the day-age theory. But the idea of a flooded earth predating the creation week can't be reconciled with this passage, and can't be seen in Genesis 1.

The gap theory is really just a idea that was forged out of a need to reconcile the bible with naturalistic old earth ideas, and IMO, I don't think it holds up to scrutiny.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#85
I would disagree, and say this isn't a possible interoperation. Moses said God made the heavens earth sea and all that is in them in six days (ex. 20:11). Clouds in scripture are said to be in the heavens, and thus were made within the 6 days, not before.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth,a the sea, and all that is in them, but he restedb on the seventh day.c Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

This is incidentally the main passage the pulled me away from the gap theory, though I went from the pot to frying pan into the day-age theory. But the idea of a flooded earth predating the creation week can't be reconciled with this passage, and can't be seen in Genesis 1.

The gap theory is really just a idea that was forged out of a need to reconcile the bible with naturalistic old earth ideas, and IMO, I don't think it holds up to scrutiny.
So..What scriptures state that God pre-made all in Genesis 1:1-2 and then CREATED it into what the rest of Genesis teaches?

Which scripture do you use......?

Did not dry land APPEAR out of the WATERS...?

Nor can you say EXODUS 20 explains what was already HERE!
 
F

Fubario

Guest
#86
If the earth was a woman, I am sure she would like to be called young.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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#87
Here's a good starter article on the subject.

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship
True Origin
Curt Sewell © 1998-2001 by Curt Sewell

Show us that you have studied the link that you googled, by showing, and defending its best example...





I'm sorry, I see nothing at all indicating this in Job or Genesis.
You haven't even performed ANY exegesis on the Job passages....and yet, you completely dismiss them out of hand.

Not impressed....




I've quoted where God assigned plants as food for humans and animals
.


And I've shown you where animals ATE animals BEFORE mankind was created.

Both accounts fit with my worldview....but destroys yours...






I've showed you were animals will return to this in the restoration.
Animals in Heaven?



I've showed you where God called everything very good.
Animal death is not good...?




I've showed you where Adam and Eve were made at the beginning of creation, not at the end of the creation timeline as you believe. (Mark 10:6)
Mark 10.7 quotes Gen 1.27....which is the FINAL creative act of God....come on...




I even pointed out to you that a dinosaur was talked about in chapter 40, and this animal is said to have been created with Job.

15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I madea along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.b
16 What strengtha it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!b
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.a

Can you let me know what animal you think this is that eats grass and has a tail like a tree?

View attachment 88360

I've seen nothing but some very inapplicable quotes from Job, and some wild conclusions being drawn from them.

Even your photo was googled from a YEC website...

Un-moved.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#88
In the beginning of God creating the heavens and the earth...When the earth was astonishingly empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and the Divine presence hovered upon the surface of the waters...GOD said...let there be light

MY bible teaches that the first thing created was LIGHT...so again no one can biblically answer about the things already here...just supposition and educated guesses....it seems HAHAHHAH!

Or Hebrew structure and or grammar!
 
Nov 19, 2012
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#89
So...was it here already? Does it say God created it and then created creation out of it! Or is it die to HEBREW structure...by the way I will take the land in IOWA hahah!
Gen 1.1 answers your query.

The compound Hebrew noun “hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz”, “heavens” (plural) and “earth” (singular) with the definite articles and the conjunction, carries with it a distinct meaning.


Just as the English words “under” and “statement” and “dragon” and “fly” put together as compound nouns take on specific meanings.


“Hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz” consistently refers to the totality of the physical universe: matter, energy, space, and time.




References:


Creation & Time
Waltke
pp. 20, 25-26




Creation & Blessing
Allen P. Ross
pp. 721, 725-726
 
E

ELECT

Guest
#90
I personally believe that the material creation was wrecked when Lucifer was cast out of heaven and what we have in Genesis is a re-construction and or renovation by God.....

God's Spirit is Brooding over exactly what in Genesis?... it is interesting to note that what he was brooding (hovering over) was already here.....Darkness, the face of the deep and waters......He (moved) upon the face of the waters.....<--became brooding

It is also interesting to note what comes out of the mouth of the Beast in Revelation that attempts to annihilate Israel and the EARTH opens up and swallows the (flood) that the Dragon is attempting to use to destroy Israel.......

The word WAS in verse 2 is BECAME.........

Another clue is in what God calls Good.....Everything he makes he calls Good in the same set of verses except when he creates the heaven......<-----Maybe he didn't apply the word Good in VERSE 8 like he did in verse 4, 10, 12, 18, 25

Note He doesn't apply the word good to the heaven and to man......He does generalize about all of creation with the word good in verse 31....

None GOOD no not one and maybe the heaven because the Prince of the POWER of the AIR was already here!

Just a few points to ponder.....
please explain why did the devil rebel then there was a big war God recreated the earth with the devil on it and then let the devil mess it up again thanks
 
E

ELECT

Guest
#91
In the beginning of God creating the heavens and the earth...When the earth was astonishingly empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and the Divine presence hovered upon the surface of the waters...GOD said...let there be light

MY bible teaches that the first thing created was LIGHT...so again no one can biblically answer about the things already here...just supposition and educated guesses....it seems HAHAHHAH!

Or Hebrew structure and or grammar!
when was darkness created ? On what day ? When was water created on what day ?
 
E

ELECT

Guest
#92
I would disagree, and say this isn't a possible interoperation. Moses said God made the heavens earth sea and all that is in them in six days (ex. 20:11). Clouds in scripture are said to be in the heavens, and thus were made within the 6 days, not before.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth,a the sea, and all that is in them, but he restedb on the seventh day.c Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

This is incidentally the main passage the pulled me away from the gap theory, though I went from the pot to frying pan into the day-age theory. But the idea of a flooded earth predating the creation week can't be reconciled with this passage, and can't be seen in Genesis 1.

The gap theory is really just a idea that was forged out of a need to reconcile the bible with naturalistic old earth ideas, and IMO, I don't think it holds up to scrutiny.
what form do you think the water was ?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#93
Show us that you have studied the link that you googled, by showing, and defending its best example...







You haven't even performed ANY exegesis on the Job passages....and yet, you completely dismiss them out of hand.

Not impressed....




.


And I've shown you where animals ATE animals BEFORE mankind was created.

Both accounts fit with my worldview....but destroys yours...








Animals in Heaven?





Animal death is not good...?






Mark 10.7 quotes Gen 1.27....which is the FINAL creative act of God....come on...







Even your photo was googled from a YEC website...

Un-moved.
It is funny how a lot of people who will debate the bible will quote another man and what he believed and taught instead of making a stand on something that God has taught them by diligent study...kind of chunks what John said about not needing any man to teach you anything as the Spirit of God will go before us and lead and guides us into ALL TRUTH. It is equally unimpressive how linguistic grammar is rejected when it is obvious that God has either said something and or left something out on purpose that gets overlooked and or spiritualized away......TRAGIC for sure!
 
E

ELECT

Guest
#94
If the earth was a woman, I am sure she would like to be called young.
Psalm 67:6-7King James Version (KJV)


6 Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us.


7 God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.
 
E

ELECT

Guest
#95
The earth is 6000 yrs plus we are going into the 7000 years when Jesus will come again
Only God will know when the 7000 year will begin
 
E

ELECT

Guest
#96
I would just ask my old earth brothers (and even Ross directly, though I know his response), if the earth is truly millions of years old, and man is just a recent blip in the billions of years since the Big Bang, where did death comes from? Where did suffering come from?

Now biblical creationists believe that God created a "very good" world initially (Gen. 1:31). Animals were designed to eat plants (Gen. 1:29-30) and death and suffering didn't come on the scene until Adam sinned.

But what say you? Where does all the suffering in the world, particularly among animals, come from?
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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#97
I had a much more detailed response written out, but for some reason it didn't post like I thought it did. So, let me just tackle a few things here.

15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I madea along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.b
16 What strengtha it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!b
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.a

Can you let me know what animal you think this is that eats grass and has a tail like a tree?

View attachment 88360
The Bible is referring to the way the tail moves, not the way the tail looks.

Ever seen a fruit bat? Those are some sharp teeth for fruit consumption.
Have you ever seen the teeth of a fruit bat?

Smithsonian ScienceFrom chewing tough insects to soft fruit, bat teeth are highly specialized - Smithsonian Science

And what about bears that are mostly vegetarian? Their teeth work just fine for eating plants and plants products.
Reading Evolution: The Evidence

And what about us, who eat meat?? We actually thrive on meat, yet we have "vegetarian teeth."
Have you ever heard of omnivores?

you may want to check out a book on neanderthals by Jack Cuozzo ..., called Buried Alive. He actually personally x-rayed several specimens himself. He believes they were simply humans that lived much longer than we do today, and their bone developments were the result of age.
Here's a small critique of his book.

Buried Alive: The Startling Truth about Neanderthal Man

Regarding evidence, I believe the testimony of scripture to be the most well preserved reliable evidence on our history. Nothing else comes close. I choose it over all other lines. I'm curious why you give it such little weight.
You're not simply rejecting evolution because the arguments fail to convince. You're looking for reasons to reject evolution because the theory or evolution contradicts the Bible.
 
C

Calminian

Guest
#98
Show us that you have studied the link that you googled, by showing, and defending its best example...
I'm actually pretty well versed on the tablet theory. Any questions you have on it, feel free to ask. The essence of it is based on all the toledoth statements found throughout scripture. Toledoth is the hebrew word for generations, histories or accounts. It's so significant that the Septuagint translators used the greek translation of this word as the name of first book of the Torah. Genesis is the greek translation of toledoth.

We find that Genesis is divided by phrases with this word into very discernible sections.

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created…. (Gen. 2:4a)
This is the written account of Adam’s line…. (Gen. 5:1a)
This is the account of Noah. (Gen. 6:9a)
This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah’s sons, who themselves had sons after the flood. (Gen. 10:1)
These are the clans of Noah’s sons, according to their lines of descent, within their nations. (Gen. 10:32a)

This is the account of Shem. (Gen. 11:10a)
This is the account of Terah. (Gen. 11:27a)
This is the account of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s maidservant, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. (Gen. 25:12)
This is the account of Abraham’s son Isaac. (Gen. 25:19a)
This is the account of Esau (that is, Edom). (Gen. 36:1)
This is the account of Esau the father of the Edomites in the hill country of Seir. (Gen. 36:9)
This is the account of Jacob. (Gen. 37:2a)
The basic hypothesis is that these are colophons (concluding signatures) rather than subject titles, and they are indicative of the original authors whose names they bare. We have good archeological evidence now from thousands of clay tablets found in the middle east that colophons were very common in ancient writings, and it would seem now that Genesis is the compilation of many such ancient writings. It's sort of the opposite of JEDP.

Have I convinced you I'm familiar with the theory? The article I cited is the best intro to the subject. Henry Morris endorses this theory in his commentary on Genesis, and there are many articles on it I can point you too, including my own, but mine is not a good introductory one.
 
C

Calminian

Guest
#99
I had a much more detailed response written out, but for some reason it didn't post like I thought it did. So, let me just tackle a few things here.
Bummer when that happens. I can sympathize I've been there.

The Bible is referring to the way the tail moves, not the way the tail looks.
If that works for you, more power to you. But I would just ask, what does it mean to move your tiny twig tail like a giant tree? Does that make sense to you, because that makes no sense to me. Would you ever describe an elephant's tail as moving like a tree???

You're not simply rejecting evolution because the arguments fail to convince. You're looking for reasons to reject evolution because the theory or evolution contradicts the Bible.
Well the way I like to put it is, I trust the evidence presented in the Bible. I actually see the historical record of scripture as evidence, and the better in interpret it, the better I understand history.

Now there are creationists that are heavy into the science aspect of this debate, and for certain it is important, but my focus is on the text, and interpreting it correctly. I want to find out what scripture says, not try to fit it into a model. Once I discern what it says, and then compare it to man's theories that I might correctly judge men's theories.

BTW, if you want to discuss more of the science side with some folks, you can visit my friends at EvolutionFairyTale.com. They are much more versed in the sciences than I. If you do visit them, let me know, and I'll give you an introduction. I use the same name there.
 
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Feb 16, 2014
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If that works for you, more power to you. But I would just ask, what does it mean to move your tiny twig tail like a giant tree? Does that make sense to you, because that makes no sense to me. Would you ever describe an elephant's tail as moving like a tree???
It's been suggested that the Bible is actually referring to the cedar branch, which would make much more sense than a dinosaur since there's zero evidence of dinosaurs and humans co-existing. In fact, a cedar branch describes an elephant's tail decently enough.

Well the way I like to put it is, I trust the evidence presented in the Bible. I actually see the historical record of scripture as evidence, and the better in interpret it, the better I understand history.
You trust the statement presented in the Bible, since the Bible isn't a collection of proofs.

Now there are creationists that are heavy into the science aspect of this debate, and for certain it is important, but my focus is on the text, and interpreting it correctly. I want to find out what scripture says, not try to fit it into a model. Once I discern what it says, and then compare it to man's theories that I might correctly judge men's theories.
Unless you're wrong and the scientific theories are correct, in which case you're rejecting reality. Of course, the same could be said for me as well. But if we consider the possibility that God may or may not have created the Earth only a few thousand years ago, then the best we can do is follow the evidence. You aren't questioning whether or not God created the earth a few thousand years ago, you accept it as fact already, which means you would never be able to correct yourself if you're wrong and if you're proven wrong.

BTW, if you want to discuss more of the science side with some folks, you can visit my friends atEvolutionFairyTale.com. They are much more versed in the sciences than I. If you do visit them, let me know, and I'll give you an introduction. I use the same name there.
Honestly, it's not worth my time discussing evolution with people who will not even consider the idea that they might possibly be wrong and who are not willing to change their views in the presence of evidence.

The problem is, if you accept the gospel as the ultimate truth no matter what, then it wouldn't matter what evidence I present to you because you're going to reject it - no matter what. You're going to automatically assume it's wrong because you believe the Bible to be true. I'm sure your friends are the same way. This means that I COULD be right and that I COULD have legitimate evidence, but they would reject it without a second thought.

You and your friends COULD be right. But if they won't even consider changing their views - ever, then the only reason to debate them is to see how well my arguments hold up. The thing is, I've already discussed this topic in great detail with creationists. So it becomes a waste of time unless there's something else I can achieve. That's why I would have to discuss evolution and creationism with someone who's willing to change their mind, so that if I'm not convinced, I can at least expect the other person to change their mind on at least some things (they wouldn't even have to reject creationism, but alter their views about what evolution actually is compared to what it isn't).

Essentially, I don't want to debate a bunch of creationists just to find out I wasted my time and accomplished nothing - where my views remain the same and my opponent's views remain the same. If I'm going to put time and effort into discussing the topic, I need to make sure something is accomplished whether I'm convinced to change my mind or whether my opponent changes their mind (even if it's just a little). For that to even be possible, they must be open to the idea of changing their mind.

I hope this makes sense as to why I don't wish to devote too much time and energy debating people who will not change their position at all.
 
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