Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah, verse 31 comes after that. Verse 31 says after they saw all that /God had done to the Egyptians and what He did at the Red Sea, they placed their faith in God and Moses.

Yet when the next trial came, What was their answer?

Then the whole congregation of the children of Israel complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness. 3 And the children of Israel said to them, “Oh, that we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the pots of meat and when we ate bread to the full! For you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger.”


Again, time and time again they did this same stuff. Said the same statement which proves they had no faith in god, and did not even think God resured them, they think Moses took them.

No credit to God. And no faith.

The golden calf is what they had faith in, They trusted the gods of egypt more than they trusted the god of abraham.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well, this is how I said earlier that I actually saw myself in Israel. He saved me like He saved them. Then I struggled to believe what He said about provision, with being content with enough for the day, just as they did. Then He disappeared to my senses and I freaked out that He'd left me and abandoned me to die of thirst.

He brought me through all of that, years and years of struggling to believe all that He said, so the way I can see myself in Israel ends there because He didn't lose patience with me or give up on me, He brought me safely through it all. And He didn't leave me through it all.

I don't know, I still have a lot to learn, but I do see myself having made some of the mistakes of Israel. He didn't leave me there. And I certainly can't take any credit for making it through those tests of faith when Israel didn't.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, this is how I said earlier that I actually saw myself in Israel. He saved me like He saved them. Then I struggled to believe what He said about provision, with being content with enough for the day, just as they did. Then He disappeared to my senses and I freaked out that He'd left me and abandoned me to die of thirst.

He brought me through all of that, years and years of struggling to believe all that He said, so the way I can see myself in Israel ends there because He didn't lose patience with me or give up on me, He brought me safely through it all. And He didn't leave me through it all.

I don't know, I still have a lot to learn, but I do see myself having made some of the mistakes of Israel. He didn't leave me there. And I certainly can't take any credit for making it through those tests of faith when Israel didn't.

did you want to go back to your unsaved state? (Back to egypt)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'm sorry our discussion on definitions got so convoluted, but we did all three agree that faith is a gift.
It's a starting point anyway!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry our discussion on definitions got so convoluted, but we did all three agree that faith is a gift.
It's a starting point anyway!

What confused you about my defenitions that you thought I defines based on doctrine?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

did you want to go back to your unsaved state? (Back to egypt)

Actually...there was somewhat of a pull to go back to the world, but only when He disappeared to my senses and I didn't have anyone to explain that He had put me on a fast in spirit and would be back. But do you know...in that awful anguish of thinking He'd abandoned me, while there was some thought that it would have been better for me to have never met Him than to have met Him and lost Him, I would say the greater chance would have been suicide rather than a return to the world...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What confused you about my defenitions that you thought I defines based on doctrine?

Don't remember. It got too confusing. I prefer to have a conversation with one person at a time. I'll go back and refresh my memory on what seemed doctrinally based definition rather than just definition. Give me a few moments.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually...there was somewhat of a pull to go back to the world, but only when He disappeared to my senses and I didn't have anyone to explain that He had put me on a fast in spirit and would be back. But do you know...in that awful anguish of thinking He'd abandoned me, while there was some thought that it would have been better for me to have never met Him than to have met Him and lost Him, I would say the greater chance would have been suicide rather than a return to the world...

Thank you, You just proved you and they have nothing in common. They were so afraid of death thats why they would rather have returned to their old self

it also proves that was where their real faith was in. Not the god of moses. But in the life they had in egypt (which they forgot was horrific)

 

[Rosemaryx]

Well, this is how I said earlier that I actually saw myself in Israel. He saved me like He saved them. Then I struggled to believe what He said about provision, with being content with enough for the day, just as they did. Then He disappeared to my senses and I freaked out that He'd left me and abandoned me to die of thirst.

He brought me through all of that, years and years of struggling to believe all that He said, so the way I can see myself in Israel ends there because He didn't lose patience with me or give up on me, He brought me safely through it all. And He didn't leave me through it all.

I don't know, I still have a lot to learn, but I do see myself having made some of the mistakes of Israel. He didn't leave me there. And I certainly can't take any credit for making it through those tests of faith when Israel didn't.

Stunned...The fact that your heart was always facing God is the beautiful thing you see...God wants our broken and contrite heart , and through your struggles of believing in His promises for you ( which I think all of us struggle with ) , you never turned your back on God , and now here you are out of that wilderness...Praise God...xox...

People who are not born again can not walk around that same mountain , kicking and screaming if you like , no they would get fed up and give up and go back to where they came from...True believers , those who deny themselves , pick up their cross and follow Jesus , they as in we are the ones walking home...

I love the way Jesus has left us with every kind of help we need as we come up against the evil ones plots , the traps , the nets , the pits and the falls , we have The Comforter , The Counselor , The Helper , The Advocate...John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you...

God has blessed us with more then we could ever imagine...xox...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually...there was somewhat of a pull to go back to the world, but only when He disappeared to my senses and I didn't have anyone to explain that He had put me on a fast in spirit and would be back. But do you know...in that awful anguish of thinking He'd abandoned me, while there was some thought that it would have been better for me to have never met Him than to have met Him and lost Him, I would say the greater chance would have been suicide rather than a return to the world...

By the way I suffered this also. Yet I never once looked up to God and said, God I do not want your salvation anymore. Take me back to egypt (take back your salvation, I no longer want it) because that is the only place I ever felt secure.

i too would rather commit suicide (I came close a few times) then go back there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Stunned...The fact that your heart was always facing God is the beautiful thing you see...God wants our broken and contrite heart , and through your struggles of believing in His promises for you ( which I think all of us struggle with ) , you never turned your back on God , and now here you are out of that wilderness...Praise God...xox...

People who are not born again can not walk around that same mountain , kicking and screaming if you like , no they would get fed up and give up and go back to where they came from...True believers , those who deny themselves , pick up their cross and follow Jesus , they as in we are the ones walking home...

I love the way Jesus has left us with every kind of help we need as we come up against the evil ones plots , the traps , the nets , the pits and the falls , we have The Comforter , The Counselor , The Helper , The Advocate...John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you...

God has blessed us with more then we could ever imagine...xox...

amen sis, well said,

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What confused you about my defenitions that you thought I defines based on doctrine?

Okay so I've gone backwards and found where all of the hulabaloo began.
Post #166. It wasn't your post, it was ralphs post. It was so confusing I couldn't even process it. So I asked him to define 4 words. I saw a bias in his one definition - the definition of faith. It was biased to his doctrine. And that's okay, I'm not saying he's Frankenstein for that or anything. But to say the gift of faith/belief and trust in God is an ability all are given does not really fit with what I read in scripture. From what I read in scripture, faith is the gift of being given your sight.

When you got into the conversation, you said to have faith in God does not mean to believe. And you gave an explanation but it also confused me and I think that to have faith in God is to believe and trust God, so...I didn't agree.

That's all the further I've got in my re-read.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But to understand me, it might help to know that faith, trust and believe are all synonymous to me. They all mean the same thing to me. And I'm NOT talking about the words APART from a discussion of God!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay so I've gone backwards and found where all of the hulabaloo began.
Post #166. It wasn't your post, it was ralphs post. It was so confusing I couldn't even process it. So I asked him to define 4 words. I saw a bias in his one definition - the definition of faith. It was biased to his doctrine. And that's okay, I'm not saying he's Frankenstein for that or anything. But to say the gift of faith/belief and trust in God is an ability all are given does not really fit with what I read in scripture. From what I read in scripture, faith is the gift of being given your sight.

When you got into the conversation, you said to have faith in God does not mean to believe. And you gave an explanation but it also confused me and I think that to have faith in God is to believe and trust God, so...I didn't agree.

That's all the further I've got in my re-read.

Lets start here, here are my two actual defenitions of faith vs belief.

Believe is influenced by circumstances. That is why it is so wishy washy, because it is not rooted in trust, it is just rooted in an idea, It is rooted in self. Not in the thing which we are asked to trust.
In other words, if We have somethign we have already trusted in, and are asked to trust in somethign else. We may believe that thing to be true, and may try it out for awhile. But if we never ocme to trust that thing, it will never take root. We will always revert back to what we really trusted to begin with (an example is a jew, who tried the christian idea, but went back to law. Because law is where their real faith lay,)


Faith, on the other hand, is rooted in trust, in assurace (the greek makes this clear) which is far deeper than mere believe (rooted in an idea or what we think) and is not wishy washy, it depeneds not on the one who has the faith, but on the one who we are trusting in, As long as the one who we have faith continues to prove to be trustworthy, we will continue to have faith, the only way we lose faith, is if the person stops being truystworthy and is shown to be a fraud. Thats why faith in Christ can never be lost. Because it is rooted in him, not in ourself. (Saying we can lose faith means God becomes untrustworthy)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But to understand me, it might help to know that faith, trust and believe are all synonymous to me. They all mean the same thing to me. And I'm NOT talking about the words APART from a discussion of God!

I agree, in certain context. They are the same (jesus said whoever believes in him has eternal life) you can not say, whoever faiths in me has eternal life. That is where the enlgish language hurts.


In another contexct. James said you believe you do well. Even demons believe yet tremble, in this context. Faith and belief do not mean the same.

In the first example. Trust and assurance was the context, where the word belief was used.

In the second example. knowledge is in context, where as Trust and assurance are not part of the equation, it is what I call mental agreement, or mere believe (seperate from faith)

so I guiess we have to use context to see what is being said.

 

[Splagna]

I never heard of present perfect. I was just speaking of perfect.

And-yes, I beliebe aorist can have an end.

Correct. The present and the perfect are tenses, so there can’t be a present perfect. Basically, the perfect reflects a present state resulting from a past action. The past action is timeless (punctiliar); it isn’t related to time, but the present action is continuous.

For example:

And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Poured out (ἐκκέχυται/ekkechutai) is in the perfect. God’s love continues in the believer’s heart as the result of a past act—it has been poured out.



The Aorist is past tense only in the indicative mood and can at times also have a sense close to the Perfect (Culminative Aorist). In any other mood (subjunctive, optative, imperative etc.) the aorist is punctiliar or timeless. In these moods the emphasis is on the action and has no relation to time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct. The present and the perfect are tenses, so there can’t be a present perfect. Basically, the perfect reflects a present state resulting from a past action. The past action is timeless (punctiliar); it isn’t related to time, but the present action is continuous.

For example:

And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Poured out (ἐκκέχυται/ekkechutai) is in the perfect. God’s love continues in the believer’s heart as the result of a past act—it has been poured out.



The Aorist is past tense only in the indicative mood and can at times also have a sense close to the Perfect (Culminative Aorist). In any other mood (subjunctive, optative, imperative etc.) the aorist is punctiliar or timeless. In these moods the emphasis is on the action and has no relation to time.

So indicative, as in titus 3: 5 (has saved) and genetive (2 tim 1: 9 has saved) the word is timless. But based on an action. Would the action be considered endless?

and in eph 2: 8 perfect (has saved) is a completed action which is timeless also. And the action is continuous.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree, in certain context. They are the same (jesus said whoever believes in him has eternal life) you can not say, whoever faiths in me has eternal life. That is where the enlgish language hurts.


In another contexct. James said you believe you do well. Even demons believe yet tremble, in this context. Faith and belief do not mean the same.

In the first example. Trust and assurance was the context, where the word belief was used.

In the second example. knowledge is in context, where as Trust and assurance are not part of the equation, it is what I call mental agreement, or mere believe (seperate from faith)

so I guiess we have to use context to see what is being said.

Well...James was making a point about the hypocrisy of claiming to trust and believe when you show by your actions that you do not. He was pointing out hypocrisy, in my view.

A prime is example is you-know-who. He would make flowery speeches and wax long about love and forgiveness and then when he felt offended, he proved by his actions/the words from his mouth that he was a hypocrite. I am sometimes a hypocrite. I hate it when God shows it to me, but I don't just continue to proclaim that I am not a hypocrite.

James has shown me a lot. His words come back to me everytime I find myself holding a grudge and He shows me how I have done the same thing I am holding the grudge about, either in the past, or even, astoundingly, AT THE SAME TIME AS I'M MURDERING SOMEONE ELSE FOR THE VERY SAME THING!!

James' words aren't meant for everyone else but me. They're meant to me too. They convict hypocrites if they are working in a heart God has prepared. They aren't meant to convict everyone but myself. They are meant for me FIRST. They are meant to open my eyes to MY hypocrisy, not yours. (You can't help though that when you have been convicted, you spot it in others too. My point is just that the hypocrites James was speaking to are US, not THEM.)

So James was making a specific point geared to prick the hearts of the hearers. And we all know that he wasn't preaching to a bunch of people who were unbelievers. At least I don't think he was. I think he was spurring them on to be zealous to do good for others and to root out hypocrisies in themselves. Just my opinion.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In other words, James' words are not meant to cause me to say, thank God I'm not like those other men. They are meant to examine my own heart.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

My own example: After I met God, He showed me my hypocrisy in saying I loved Him and trusted Him while at the same time I was anxious and worried about money. I was claiming to believe and trust and showing by my hearts agitation that I was a hypocrite.