Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[mailmandan]

“But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins.” “If” means “choice/decision”, “you” means “Christian” “Sin willfully” means premeditated and ongoing without goal or effort to stop, “No longer” means there once genuinely did remain a sacrifice for “you”- which means this person was a saved Christian but is no longer a saved Christian- which means OSAS is a false doctrine- it is possible to lose your salvation.

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE.

Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). *No loss of salvation here. You are reading your own preconceived theology into the text.

Hebrews 10:26 (AMPC) - For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

True, but as yet, she doesn't realize she needs a Savior. She thinks Jesus was just a good philosopher.

If you think that then you need to be nice to her and discuss scripture with her so you can win her for your Lord, who wants her!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

She may have even changed her mind about the 4 different theories and no longer wish to discuss it. Do you remember how quickly He changed your mind on so many things?

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't have a problem with it being thought a parable as opposed to a real life person...but does it matter?

Of course it matters, James recognized the reality of Job as a person and as a testimony of God's patience toward him applying to us; James 5:11. But perhaps we are only parables too?

I don't see God using a fake story or person to show patience and compassion to as an example for us. The narrative of Job is factual.

So bottom line, Scripture needs to be representing soundly, thus to call this narrative a parable is not handling the word of God properly; 2 Timothy 2:15.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree that it is factual and that he was a real man.
But God does speak in...riddles sort of sometimes and Jesus used parables. The fact that they were parables does not make them not truth of spiritual matters.

So while I agree he was a real man who lived on earth, I'm not sure if I would necessarily have to part ways with someone who believed it was more of a parable.

I'd be curious to hear WHY someone came to the conclusion that it was not based on a real man, for sure. I mean, there has to be a reason why you would think that. But parables are the word of God too, so I'm not sure I need to have an argument about it. But maybe I'm not seeing some nefarious purpose?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was just thinking about an illustration of this last night! It had something to do with humans and trees and how once Jesus turns you into a tree, there's no way, in all your tree powers, you could turn yourself into a human.

Amen, And there is biblical support what what happens when God does not change you into a tree. A dog returns to his vomit, because he is still a dog. He did not revert back to being a dog. It is what he was.

A person who is made into a tree will always be a tree. They may not produce as muchg fruit as other trees around them, but they are still a tree.

Love it sis, and thank you!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think, we'll have to take a step back and look at this in the context of identities.

Once you were a sinner. Even though you were a sinner, you didn't sin all the time. There were times you were doing good things. You loved your family, you loved your friends. You gave to charities, you forgave some people who wronged you. Heck, you even followed some of the ten commandments, you didn't murder, didn't commit adultery, etc. You were not actually a terrible sinner. But sinner, you remained. It was who you were, without Christ and no amount of good doing could've changed that.

Now, when you accepted Jesus' (re: Jesus fulfilled the law in your place) sacrifice on the Cross for you. Your identity changed.

You became righteous in Christ. By the same token now, you remain righteous by Christ's sacrifice, alone. You don't always pray, you don't always do good, you don't always give. Heck, you even broke some of the ten commandments. You don't keep the sabbath, and let's go down deeper, you've committed adultery, or you don't always believe that God actually meant every Word He said (i.e. where sin abounds, grace abounds so much more). You're not exactly a very good Christian, by your standards. But righteous, you remain. It is who you are now, in Christ and no amount of bad doing could change that.

Biblical reference: Romans 5, and so much more.

I repped your last post. But this really deserves a rep. And a sticky!! Wow sis. Love it!!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Okay, I have to say it before posthuman comes in and beats me to it.
If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be...?

HAHAHA!!
(Barbara Walters, lol)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Take thww whole word.

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

My god man, context context. This is about the end of time as we know it. The end of tribulation, it speaks of those alive on the earth at that time, and enduring through tribulation until the return of Christ. Whoever endures WILL HAVE THEY PHYSICAL LIFE SPARED. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH ETERNAL SALVATION.

or is Paul a Jesus eraser?

Paul did not contradict jesus, Nor did Jesus contradict paul. As you are trying to make him do. Were pauls words inspired or not? The bible can not contradict itself.

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John/Yahanan 5:39, “You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me.”


John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”



John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.”




2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviorיהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart Command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” (Pro 26:11) and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”

Psalm 69:27-28, “Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!”

“He who overcomes”

Revelation 3:5, “He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim.”

You opened the post by saying I need to take the whole word. Yet you want the word to contradict.

Paul said we HAVE BEEN SAVED, Now either paul lied. And we can cast all his books out of the bible. Because they are untrustworthy, Or Paul spoke truth, and you are proven to be in error.

Non of the passages you spoke of contrtadict what Paul said, If you take them in context and make them unify with the words of paul.

Again, Paul said we have been saved, End of story, Either paul lied, or he spoke truth, and if he spoke truth you better interpret the r4est of the word to agree with what Paul said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are facing sin for what it is. You seem to belittle the grace of God. It all comes down to sin vs grace. It's an obvious victory.

Read your bible again and find all the topologies of vine, tree, why Jesus calls us branches and He the vine, or how holiness (by your definition, not sinning) is fruit of grace.

When one is saved, he not only tends to walk in the way of Jesus, HE CAN'T HELP IT. Which takes me back to my argument, you can't help being saved for eternity. It's just not in your hands anymore.

Amen sis, A tree produces fruit,. The amount varies, and there may be seasons where the tree does not produce at all (I have apple trees,, and have witnessed this for myself) yet a tree is still a tree.

A dog is a dog. It will always be a dog. You can teach a dog a new trick and it may act like something that is not a dog for a time, but it will always revert to being a dog (eat its own vomit) because it is still a dog.

A dog will continue to do what a dog does, it will not be able to produce fruit no matter ho0w hard it tries, or how hard people try to make them produce fruit, it can’t. The only way a dog can produce fruit, is to be made into a new creation, which is to be made into a tree.

many can come into a church and act like they produce fruit, and maybe even appear to be doing so. But if they are not yet made into trees. They are not producing fruit. Eventuyally it will be verified they are still dogs (as john said in his 1st epistle. They went out from us, but were never of us, but they left to PROVE they were never of us)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's a question:

Can you out-sin your salvation?

Re: Can you out-sin the grace of God?

I always thought of this,

Before you were saved, you were an enemy of God. Yourt whole life was based on self thus everythign you did for the most part was self centered (sin)

after you were saved, You were made a new creature, Have God in you, when you stray off the path, God will chasten you to help you get on the right path, as Jesus said, if one of the flock wanders away, he will leave the whole flock to retriev it.

So how can commit so much sin AFTER you are saved then you were sinning the moment BEFORE you were saved?

If God saved you at your worse, would you not need to fall lower than your worse to lose your salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People keep talking about sin like it's what made you a sinner. Like you sin so you become a sinner.

Take a step back.

You sin because you were ALREADY a sinner. By Adam's sin, you became one. By one man's disobedience.

Insert Jesus here and...

You produce the fruit of the Spirit because you've become righteous. By Jesus' death. By Jesus' obedience.

Amen again, I think the issue is people do not understand what sin is.. SInce they do not comprehend what it takes to be a sinner, they think they can be righteous. When in reality, they are still (by defenition) a sinner.

The question then becomes, are you a sinner saved by grace, and given the righteousness of Christ by bitn sprinkled with his blood on the mercy seat, or a sinner condemned by your sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By that logic Jesus was a sinner.

If a man were able to not sin his entire life and died then you say God would consider him a sinner, despite having not sinned? That runs contrary to God's nature.

Jesus was not born in adam, Hence the virgin birth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Jesus was not born in adam, Hence the virgin birth.

Yes. He was not from the seed of Adam. We are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No.


Was Y-shua's death and resurrection worthless? Should we die in the first week of being Saved because we might lose our Salvation for people like me save in Feb. 1991.... Am I maybe not saved no more? ... I have sinned a lot in almost 30 years... repeated a lot of them.... I promise you over the last almost 30 years. Can I crucify Messiah again? Many of when I was 18 and got saved I have never repeated. Explain to me why Messiah is enough to get me saved but not keep me saved....

there is only one explanation possible. If messiah is enough to get you saved, but can not keep you saved, then he begins your saslvation in the spirit. But you must perfect your salvation in the flesh.

Of course, Paul says if you believe this, you are a FOOL

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Catholics dont use the term as you understand it. It is not a one-off deal ... it is a lifetime and it includes more than faith and not sinning. It includes doing good things for others ... like Jesus instructed.

This is grace plus works. And as the bible says, it is either one or the other, You can not have both, if it is of works, it is no longer of grace, because grace is no longer grace.

so catholics got is wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

'So if Jesus did it for us, does this mean that we don't have to do all the things that Jesus preached about for three and a half years. Is his death the only important thing?

No, it does nto mean this, A person who is saved is expected to do what he asks, and if he does not, he will be chastened as God said they would be, as children of God, and as scripture says, no amount of chastening is pleasent it is painful. For those of us who have been chasten by God, we KNOW how painful that can be,

A child of God also desires to obey him, But even with all this, they will never live up to Gods standard. Which is perfection.

The penalty of sin is death, Not penance, No amouty of penance will ever cause one sin to be forgiven, Either the cross forgivesd all sin, or a person is doomed. Period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the story of Job is a parable ... a story. Job as a real person never existed.

WHAT? Did the catholic church teach you this? This is not true. Job was as real and you and I are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't read the Bible literally and I beliefve we have the ability to be good people. We are not born bad. The Sermon on the Mount is about a way to live .. it IS about being good. If Jesus thought we could not be good, He would not have wasted three and a half years tell us HOW to be good people.
The fundamentalist "sin" versus "not sinning" approach misses the mark ... it misses the LIFE of Jesus and it focuses on his death.

The law proves how evil we are, and the law is not even all encompassing, it is a basic guide.

James said if we commit even the slightest of all sins we are guilty under the whole law. What is the penalty of sin? DEATH.

Paul said ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

So how can you think we are generally good people when God says otherwise.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

there is only one explanation possible. If messiah is enough to get you saved, but can not keep you saved, then he begins your saslvation in the spirit. But you must perfect your salvation in the flesh.

Of course, Paul says if you believe this, you are a FOOL

This is MOST EXCELLENT!