Once saved, is sin ok?
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C
You keep stating this straw man that if one calls himself a sinner, that he must be sinning habitually with no regard. Paul refuted this, calling himself the worst of sinners, and yet emphasizing the fact that true believers follow God (albeit imperfectly).
BF, you just accused Paul of having no change in his life. You're argument is not with me. I quoted Paul who, as a saved individual, said he was a wretched man and sinner. You refuse to do this, which is really suspicious, and concerning.
1Tim. 1:15 Here is a trustworthy sayinga that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
I'm also curious how many of you on here are making this stand with BF. Newbirth, do you also take this stand with BF and against Paul that we should not call ourselves sinners?
BF, you just accused Paul of having no change in his life. You're argument is not with me. I quoted Paul who, as a saved individual, said he was a wretched man and sinner. You refuse to do this, which is really suspicious, and concerning.
1Tim. 1:15 Here is a trustworthy sayinga that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
I'm also curious how many of you on here are making this stand with BF. Newbirth, do you also take this stand with BF and against Paul that we should not call ourselves sinners?
I think someone is getting something here, we are not chasing our tail or spinning our wheels, in no sense, this is far from a fruitless discussion. There's really no debate, there's right and wrong, night and day, I think some can get understanding where they didn't have it, not just to be another nicely dressed clapper at church on Sunday.There are real christians in here and I appreciate others posting Gods Words to show what it means to really be a follower of Christ.
you see Paul as a sinner but he sees himself as an apostle...1 Timothy 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
I suppose a bit more reading would help...
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
so the question remains are you called to be a sinner or a saint?
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
I suppose a bit more reading would help...
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
so the question remains are you called to be a sinner or a saint?
C
Duly noted that you disagree with Paul on this. Paul called himself the chief of sinners, even though you say he should't have.
NB, what denomination do you belong to? I'm curious if you and BF are from the same organization.
Jimbone, I hope you're not getting caught up in this. If you're affiliated with these guys you need to run and find a bible believing church.
Here's a very concise article on the issue:
Question: "Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?"
Answer: Christians are both sinners and saints. All human beings are sinners because we are born in sin. But not all humans are saints. According to the Bible, a saint is not someone who has done wonderful things, nor is it someone who has been deemed a saint by a church or organization. The word translated “saint” in the New Testament, hagios, means literally “sacred, physically pure; morally blameless or religious; ceremonially consecrated; a holy one.” In the context of New Testament passages, saints are those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). In other words, “saint” is another word for a Christian, a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is a clear biblical truth that all are born in sin and all have a sin nature. Scripture says that God created humankind originally good and without a sin nature: "Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness’. . . . God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them” (Genesis 7:26-27). However, Genesis chapter 3 records the fall of Adam and Eve, and with that fall, sin entered into the two previously sinless creatures. And when they, in turn, had children, their sin nature was passed along to their offspring. Thus, every human being is a sinner.
Saints, on the other hand, are not born saints; they become saints by being reborn. Because we have all “sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23), we are all in need of spiritual rebirth, without which we will continue in our sinful state throughout eternity. But God, in His great mercy and grace, has provided the (only) means for turning a sinner into a saint—the Lord Jesus Christ, who came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” When we confess our need for a Savior from sin and accept His sacrifice on the cross on our behalf, we become saints.
There is no hierarchy of saints. All who belong to Christ by faith are saints, and none of us is more “saintly” than our Christian brothers and sisters. The Apostle Paul, who is no more of a saint than the most obscure Christian, begins his first letter to the Corinthian church by declaring that they were “sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:2, emphasis added). In this verse, hagios is translated “saints,” “holy,” and “sanctified” in different Bible versions, leading to the unmistakable conclusion that all who have ever called upon Christ for salvation are saints, made holy by the Lord. We are all “fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19).
We are not saints because we have been declared to be saints by a church, nor can we work our way to sainthood. Once we are saved by faith, however, we are called to certain actions befitting our calling as saints of God. “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’" (1 Peter 1:15-16). Saints are not sinless, but the lives of saints do reflect the reality of the presence of Christ in our hearts, in whom we “live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).
Read more: Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?
Any teacher telling you you are not a saint in Christ, or telling you are no longer a sinner is a false teacher. Run.
NB, what denomination do you belong to? I'm curious if you and BF are from the same organization.
Jimbone, I hope you're not getting caught up in this. If you're affiliated with these guys you need to run and find a bible believing church.
Here's a very concise article on the issue:
Question: "Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?"
Answer: Christians are both sinners and saints. All human beings are sinners because we are born in sin. But not all humans are saints. According to the Bible, a saint is not someone who has done wonderful things, nor is it someone who has been deemed a saint by a church or organization. The word translated “saint” in the New Testament, hagios, means literally “sacred, physically pure; morally blameless or religious; ceremonially consecrated; a holy one.” In the context of New Testament passages, saints are those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). In other words, “saint” is another word for a Christian, a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is a clear biblical truth that all are born in sin and all have a sin nature. Scripture says that God created humankind originally good and without a sin nature: "Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness’. . . . God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them” (Genesis 7:26-27). However, Genesis chapter 3 records the fall of Adam and Eve, and with that fall, sin entered into the two previously sinless creatures. And when they, in turn, had children, their sin nature was passed along to their offspring. Thus, every human being is a sinner.
Saints, on the other hand, are not born saints; they become saints by being reborn. Because we have all “sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23), we are all in need of spiritual rebirth, without which we will continue in our sinful state throughout eternity. But God, in His great mercy and grace, has provided the (only) means for turning a sinner into a saint—the Lord Jesus Christ, who came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” When we confess our need for a Savior from sin and accept His sacrifice on the cross on our behalf, we become saints.
There is no hierarchy of saints. All who belong to Christ by faith are saints, and none of us is more “saintly” than our Christian brothers and sisters. The Apostle Paul, who is no more of a saint than the most obscure Christian, begins his first letter to the Corinthian church by declaring that they were “sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:2, emphasis added). In this verse, hagios is translated “saints,” “holy,” and “sanctified” in different Bible versions, leading to the unmistakable conclusion that all who have ever called upon Christ for salvation are saints, made holy by the Lord. We are all “fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19).
We are not saints because we have been declared to be saints by a church, nor can we work our way to sainthood. Once we are saved by faith, however, we are called to certain actions befitting our calling as saints of God. “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’" (1 Peter 1:15-16). Saints are not sinless, but the lives of saints do reflect the reality of the presence of Christ in our hearts, in whom we “live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).
Read more: Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?
Any teacher telling you you are not a saint in Christ, or telling you are no longer a sinner is a false teacher. Run.
Yes. A person under the law suffers those things in Romans 7. I was that way too at one time when I was under the law of sin and death. But as stated above, a person in Christ doesn't experience that life, (To which I can give personal testimony as well), as Paul goes on to say, when now live a new life free from all that junk...
(Rom 8:1)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:2)
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(Rom 8:3)
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Rom 8:4)
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:5)
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:6)
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(Rom 8:7)
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rom 8:8)
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Rom 8:9)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:10)
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(Rom 8:11)
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:1)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:2)
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(Rom 8:3)
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Rom 8:4)
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:5)
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:6)
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(Rom 8:7)
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rom 8:8)
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Rom 8:9)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:10)
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(Rom 8:11)
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
C
By no means! That's how Paul answered that charge.
Rom. 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Yet this same Paul called him self the worst of sinners. If this doesn't work in your theology, you need to make changes, and if you truly believe, you will.
Rom. 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Yet this same Paul called him self the worst of sinners. If this doesn't work in your theology, you need to make changes, and if you truly believe, you will.
But what part of us is born again?Paul said in Romans that he delighted in the law of GOD after the inward man but he saw another law in his members warring against the law of his mind and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin which is in his members.
So those who tried to condemn the women according to the law could not do the law either,because of the weakness of their flesh.
He said thank GOD for JESUS our LORD' so with the mind we serve GOD but with the flesh the law of sin.
can't serve GOD with will-power,Only in spirit can we serve GOD.
That part of us that we need to perfect(so to speak) is the renewing of the mind,because the spirit was already perfected /born of GOD and sealed and cannot sin.
The flesh is not perfect at the present time.
So those who tried to condemn the women according to the law could not do the law either,because of the weakness of their flesh.
He said thank GOD for JESUS our LORD' so with the mind we serve GOD but with the flesh the law of sin.
can't serve GOD with will-power,Only in spirit can we serve GOD.
That part of us that we need to perfect(so to speak) is the renewing of the mind,because the spirit was already perfected /born of GOD and sealed and cannot sin.
The flesh is not perfect at the present time.
C
Paul didn't qualify it though. Yes, he was redeemed, and yes he was a saint while he was alive. But it is true that the flesh was the body of death that caused his temptation daily.
You could say we are still sinners solely because of our flesh, and I would agree with that statement. But what I can't do is say I'm not a sinner. My flesh is the culprit, but I'm a sinner nonetheless. My spirit is redeemed my flesh is yet to be redeemed.
You could say we are still sinners solely because of our flesh, and I would agree with that statement. But what I can't do is say I'm not a sinner. My flesh is the culprit, but I'm a sinner nonetheless. My spirit is redeemed my flesh is yet to be redeemed.
1 Peter 4:1-5King James Version (KJV)
4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
I don't think ceased from sin here means gradually.....do you????
4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
I don't think ceased from sin here means gradually.....do you????
1 Peter 4:1-5King James Version (KJV)
4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
you could say anything...but the scripture says....we no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
you could say anything...but the scripture says....we no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
E
Then Paul does not know what he is saying Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. If he had said, I was the chief, we would all understand that, because certainly he was in the forefront of the ranks. But now, looking back as he comes near to the end of his life, he says, I am the chief of sinners.
what did Christ come to save sinners from??
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
now take a look at the beginning of all Paul's epistles and see how he identifies himself....
Colossians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Galatians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
now ask yourself ...do I really understand what Paul is telling me here?
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
now take a look at the beginning of all Paul's epistles and see how he identifies himself....
Colossians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Galatians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
now ask yourself ...do I really understand what Paul is telling me here?