Open Theism? What is really being said?

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BeyondET

Guest
Jonah's message was not one of repentance. One would have to add to the word of God to make that so. Jonah's message was a message of upcoming destruction, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown."
Indeed it did happen to the city, but God teaches people patience in different ways, the one you mentioned is a good example IMO. For sure it could of happen in 40 days and that is what Jonah expected he made a booth and sat outside the city and waited. Jonah was thinking in his understanding of time and reason. When things don't happen as we expect them too, it can be of patience within ourselves. For God's timing and reasons for it happening are not our time and reasons for it happening but of God.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Heresy isn't defined as "differing opinions" they are labeled damnable heresies. That's the first mistake of the OP, so he isn't representing God's Word, he's merely making up his own doctrine to tickle his own ears. (Has to in order to protect his other false teachings so there is that bias).
Hi preacher 4 Christ.

While I do not indorse Open Theism, a new concept to me, I would suggest that the word heresy is "differing opinions". Truth comes from God therefore all truth is God’s truth as a law, and not a philosophical opinion of men, as their way of reasoning amongst themselves. (the philosophies of men, no faith coming from the scriptures to reason by )

Christians reason by the law of Christ’s faith, the faith of God, and not after the imaginations of their own hearts as that of natural man without the Holy Spirit.

Because we walk by a faith not of our own, the scriptures inform us there must be heresies (differing opinions )among us for we walk by a faith (the unseen), not of our own selves.

1Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

The word heresy is where we get the word denomination or sect, as parts of the whole. In that way the idea of non-denominational has no real use except maybe a false pride.

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect (heresy) of the Nazarenes:

The kingdom of God is not of this world. If it was then we would wrestle against flesh and blood and killing the competition “out of sight out of mind” would be the gospel according to the law of men called the “law of the fathers”. That would be a false zeal that comes from the oral tradition of men. Those oral traditions of men become the letter as that seen of that kind of law, which is really not a law to begin with. To them it is just as binding as the word of God and the use of those letters are used to persecute to death those who are walking by the faith of Christ, called the hearing of faith.

We can see in two places how those letters where used for slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, as the approval of the high priest,

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,And desired of him "letters" to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. Act 9:1-2

Below the same is shown and it was called by them as the perfect manner, as a manner of the fathers being zealous for God which is clearly a false zeal in regard the father of lies.

Again the letters where used to usurp the authority of the scriptures or all that is written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to “the perfect manner of the law of the fathers”, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.And I persecuted “this way” unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. Act 22:3-5
As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received "letters" unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Paul having been born again became an enemy of the “law of the fathers”, a false zeal for God. They were accusing him of heresy (offering an opinion) because he would not follow that kind of what they called law. In that way they were calling, all that is written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) as not having all that is needed to believe God .,again their hope was in the oral traditions of men as commandments of men and therefore a man must seek the approval of their own men .

Paul in effect declared to them by what they called a opinion/heresy so he did worship the God of the fathers, and not as they did worshipped the fathers, as if they were worshipping God.

Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Act 24:13

Damnable opinions as heresy are to those who deny the grace of God (even denying the Lord that bought them) Not all opinions are damnable, subject to judgment. But according to the “law of the fathers” (seeking the approval of men) that heresy would deny the Lord that brought them who speak blasphemy, which is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit (the law of God) to men .

2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 

Sac49

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2016
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How do you explain away stories such as the book of Jonah? There are examples similar throughout the Bible where God changes His mind after He has declared something to come to pass. It's showing mercy to those who respond to His word.
I am sure you would agree that we cannot "pick and choose" when we study the Bible. The same can be said when we study the attributes of God. We cannot "define" God purely by studying love without also studying Gods mercy and Judgement. The same is here looking at the omniscience of God. The Omniscience of God is that He knows all things past, present and future. But, you seem to be saying that there are things that God did "not see coming" thus He changes His mind or repents of them. Examples of where we see this idea of God changing His mind or repenting are Gen 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Jonah 3:10 and 1 Samuel 15:11. But as i said, we cannot study one of Gods attributes and "define" Him without also studying all that He reveals to us in His Word about Himself.

So look at the Immutability of God in equality to the Omniscience of God. The Immutability of God is that He does not change in His charater or nature. We find this attribute in Malachi3:6, James 1:17 and Numbers 23:19 to name a few. We must also understand that God is not like man in certain ways and His thinking is higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8,9).

The places where we find God "changing His mind" or "repenting" are examples of Anthropopatheism. This is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought process of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinate God. This is a way God uses, in His Word, to help us understand His work from a human perspective.

With Ninevah God in His Omniscience knew they would repent so in His mercy does not destroy them. This is not saying that "God did not know they would repent" but as per His Omniscience and Immutability and in His Holiness and mercy spares them. We must also understand that the account of Ninevah is written from a human perspective where we see it as God changing His mind when in fact God knew in His omniscience what the outcome would be.

In His character and nature God judges the unrighteous and righteous differently. Ninevah is an example of how God judges us. If we would have stayed in our unrepentant ways we would have been judged by that and had an eternity in hell. Since we repented God now has mercy on us and we will be with Him in eternity. We are the ones who changed, not God.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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My two cents...I would offer the scriptures can define "free will" as a Chrstian.

I would ask did not God who always does whatsoever His soul desires create man according to the good pleasure of His own will with the intention of having fellowship with Him as the product of His own design or will?

Has he not written his law on the heart of all who are created in his image, yet natural man understands not?

Doing the pleasure of will of another becomes food or meat for thought. Food is used to represent a will.

When we say give us today our daily bread we are asking for food to do his will. That can be seen in many ways. I will offer a few examples in respect to that kind of food.

Psa 119:43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Pro 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

John 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat………………..food

John 4:32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
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Free will to us as creatures was designed to do the will of another (our faithful Creator)

God did not desire that Adam and Eve would learn by experience the disobeying His will, But they did the pleasure and ate the forbiden fruit of anothers will and became slaves to sin.

Free will to a Christian is to do the will of another,Christ. He is our daily bread and not that of our own selves lest any man boast, We thefore as free will, we eat of the will of Christ.our daily bread.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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We must also understand that God is not like man in certain ways and His thinking is higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8,9).

With Ninevah God in His Omniscience knew they would repent so in His mercy does not destroy them. This is not saying that "God did not know they would repent" but as per His Omniscience and Immutability and in His Holiness and mercy spares them. We must also understand that the account of Ninevah is written from a human perspective where we see it as God changing His mind when in fact God knew in His omniscience what the outcome would be.
The account of Nineveh is inspired Scripture written as the Holy Spirit led. When some find passages in Scripture that do not line up with their theology, they tend to say, "God's ways are higher than ours." What we should do is change our theology to fit the Scriptures. If God knew how Nineveh would respond to His word, that would make God a liar. God cannot lie. God simply changed His mind.
 
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willybob

Guest
God is a living a moving God through time... closed theism began in the mind of Plato and was imported into what is called Christianity by Ambrose/Augustine. Nothing could be further than the truth discovered in scripture...
 
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willybob

Guest
The account of Nineveh is inspired Scripture written as the Holy Spirit led. When some find passages in Scripture that does not line up with their theology we tend to say, "God's ways are higher than ours." What we should do is change our theology to fit the Scriptures. If God knew how Nineveh would respond to His word, that would make God a liar. God cannot lie. God simply changed His mind.
Very true, God changed His mind because mercy triumphs over judgement unto those that should forsake sin and repent. Those in Capernaum for the most part did not repent after Jesus fed the 5000, therefore Jesus while upbraiding that city said those of Nineveh would rise up in the judgement against them because3 they repented not..God has gone through many changes since Gen 3 He moves in accordance to mans freewill choices....However, He is the Lord God and changes not meaning His principles concerning right and wrong never change....note: when God said His ways are higher than their ways; it means His ways are not that of sin, but that of righteousness.......be blessed
 
Mar 28, 2016
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The places where we find God "changing His mind" or "repenting" are examples of Anthropopatheism. This is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought process of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinate God. This is a way God uses, in His Word, to help us understand His work from a human perspective.
Amen Thanks and if I could add

To repent is to give the idea of comforting a person. God repenting is the comfort that expresses his mercy. He did not bring judgment on Nineveh but rather eternal life.

05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself

In that way we can understand that God does all the work of salvation.

To repent is a work tGod performed owards the Ninevites, they where given the hearing of faith shown by that they did believe him who has no form.

on 3:5 So the people of Nineveh “believed God”, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

If God did not first turn them towards himself comforting them they could not "believe", exercise the faith that comes from hearing God. After hearing they repented and comforted their own selves. It brought childish shame to remind where we come from as new creatures. But comfort in knowing there savior.

No turning us towards God to have mercy, no repentance(comfort)

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth. Jer 31:18
 
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willybob

Guest
In a nut shell God views the future as a wave of reality, and because man has freewill and not an almost freewill therefore possibilities are not certainties, and that's reality...
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
In a nut shell God views the future as a wave of reality, and because man has freewill and not an almost freewill therefore possibilities are not certainties, and that's reality...
And that is the "open" of open theism. The future is open, not settled.

Which is fine reasoning from the limited POV of man. But, the future for us, is always, at once before God in His eternal now. In His omniscience He sees always, at once, everything, past, present and future. Likewise as in His omnipresence He is always, at once everywhere. As in His omnipotence He is always, at once all-powerful.
 

Sac49

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2016
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The account of Nineveh is inspired Scripture written as the Holy Spirit led. When some find passages in Scripture that do not line up with their theology, they tend to say, "God's ways are higher than ours." What we should do is change our theology to fit the Scriptures. If God knew how Nineveh would respond to His word, that would make God a liar. God cannot lie. God simply changed His mind.
Ok now place your argument against Scripture.

Malachi 3:6 "I the Lord do not change"

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind."

James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the father of heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Look especially at the passage from Numbers. This clearly states that God does not change His mind or lie. So which it true? Is this passage correct or our thinking that God does change His mind according to other passages where it seems God does change His mind? Is this a contradiction in the Word of God?

According to your argument this is clear proof that the Bible contradicts itself and thus cannot be trusted.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
I am sure you would agree that we cannot "pick and choose" when we study the Bible. The same can be said when we study the attributes of God. We cannot "define" God purely by studying love without also studying Gods mercy and Judgement. The same is here looking at the omniscience of God. The Omniscience of God is that He knows all things past, present and future. But, you seem to be saying that there are things that God did "not see coming" thus He changes His mind or repents of them. Examples of where we see this idea of God changing His mind or repenting are Gen 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Jonah 3:10 and 1 Samuel 15:11. But as i said, we cannot study one of Gods attributes and "define" Him without also studying all that He reveals to us in His Word about Himself.

So look at the Immutability of God in equality to the Omniscience of God. The Immutability of God is that He does not change in His charater or nature. We find this attribute in Malachi3:6, James 1:17 and Numbers 23:19 to name a few. We must also understand that God is not like man in certain ways and His thinking is higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8,9).

The places where we find God "changing His mind" or "repenting" are examples of Anthropopatheism. This is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought process of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinate God. This is a way God uses, in His Word, to help us understand His work from a human perspective.

With Ninevah God in His Omniscience knew they would repent so in His mercy does not destroy them. This is not saying that "God did not know they would repent" but as per His Omniscience and Immutability and in His Holiness and mercy spares them. We must also understand that the account of Ninevah is written from a human perspective where we see it as God changing His mind when in fact God knew in His omniscience what the outcome would be.

In His character and nature God judges the unrighteous and righteous differently. Ninevah is an example of how God judges us. If we would have stayed in our unrepentant ways we would have been judged by that and had an eternity in hell. Since we repented God now has mercy on us and we will be with Him in eternity. We are the ones who changed, not God.
Good post. I reject Open Theism for the same reason I reject Calvinism, they both dishonor and distort the nature and character of God.
 
Dec 3, 2016
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The future is open, not settled
No, it's settled alright... God knows the end from the beginning and things will go His way.

Count on it!
 

Sac49

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2016
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The problems arise when we study the Bible from a complete human perspective confining God to a box. We do not undetstand everything about God so we turn the perspective to mearly a human one. In the words of Soloman "we view life from below the sun" not looking at it from Gods perspective, "above the sun". If we view life from only "below the sun" then there is no point to life. When we view life from "above the sun" we can see so much more meaning to life. The same can be said about the study of Gods Word.

We limit God to only what we understand and toss out the things we dont understand. We make God what we want Him to be. Look at this from gods that man created in mythology from the Greek gods to the Norse gods. All of these gods could be controled or changed according to what a man did. The one true God is not this way. God is not affected by what we do but ee are affected by what God does. We cannot manilulate God. We see this again in 1 Samuel 15:29 "He who is the Glory of Isreal does not lie, or change his mind; for he is not man that he should change his mind".
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Ok now place your argument against Scripture.

Malachi 3:6 "I the Lord do not change"

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind."

James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the father of heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Look especially at the passage from Numbers. This clearly states that God does not change His mind or lie. So which it true? Is this passage correct or our thinking that God does change His mind according to other passages where it seems God does change His mind? Is this a contradiction in the Word of God?

According to your argument this is clear proof that the Bible contradicts itself and thus cannot be trusted.
Study the passage in Numbers. Whenever Scripture states that God does not repent, it always has to do with His plans for Israel.

God does not change in His character. He is full of mercy and grace to those who seek Him and His word. He is against those who reject His word. Nineveh believed His word of destruction, so in turn, God showed them mercy.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,643
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No, it's settled alright... God knows the end from the beginning and things will go His way.

Count on it!
Yep, the end in which He has declared from the beginning will come to pass. God will not repent. There's nothing man, angels, nor Satan can do to stop it.