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S
First, I don't like the term "Once Saved Always Saved". I prefer the phrase "Perseverance of the Holy Spirit".
The phrase "Once Saved Always Saved" conveys the idea of "easy believism"; that someone can be saved, and go off and never care a whit for God and works of appreciation and love for Him. This term is more of a slander to monergists in my opinion, although I believe that anyone who is really saved will never lose that salvation. But, true faith produces works, as James said. The works are not to earn or merit salvation, though, they are done out of appreciation and love for God...not in slavish fear like those who try to deny eternal security possess.
A saved individual can backslide, even for long periods of time, but the Lord will chasten him and bring back the errant sheep into the fold, no matter what it takes. If someone leaves a profession of faith, and never returns, this is proof that they never possessed the faith....they only had a false profession of faith. Scriptures are consistent with this view.
I view this issue of eternal security to be one of maturity. Immature believers really don't understand the full nature of the grace of God and his unending love for those he's saved. So while a person can be saved and have a works oriented salvation, like I believe most who deny eternal security have, they are still saved. They are a bit like a man who goes on a cruise, and fills his luggage with cheese and peanut butter and crackers....unaware of the smorgasbord that is included in the price of the cruise...instead he stays in his small room and eats inferior food rather than enjoying the good stuff that he should be enjoying.
As a monergist, I believe God is sovereign in all things INCLUDING salvation. If anyone sincerely desires to study this in more depth, I highly recommend this pdf document.
http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/ironside/eternal.pdf
Regarding the specific verses that the thread originator posts, I will refer you to the PDF document but am producing the section that covers this verse here. Read this carefully and think about what it's saying. Realize that there was a difference in the covenant that God had with ancient Israel, which was one of works/law and material/national promises, and the one that he has with Christians, which is one of faith/grace and spiritual/individual promises. This is the difference between what it means to be an Israelite and a Christian. Some in the Old Testament had a real relationship with God based on faith, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, the prophets....however as the Old Testament clearly teaches, the nation of Israel as a whole didn't have that sort of relationship and never followed God wholeheartedly.
Q. Ezekiel 18: 24: "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?"
A. Is it not strange for anyone in this dispensation of grace to quote a passage like that, as though it had anything to do with the question of the soul's salvation? Go back and read Ezekiel 18. Of what is it treating?
We read in the twenty-first verse, "If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Is that grace? No, that is law.
That is just the quintessence of law. Do you believe that if a wicked man turns from his wickedness he will live?
If this is true, why did Jesus die? Would you preach that to sinners? Would you have me stand up and say, "You wicked people, you have been doing wickedness; you start in tonight to do righteousness and you will live"-would you have me preach that? I would be deliberately deceiving people if I told them that.
But you see here God was testing people under law and said, "The man that turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?
All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
And what has happened? Not one man ever continued in all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them. Therefore, they were all under sentence of death. How then were they to be saved?
By turning over a new leaf? Oh, no; but by confessing that they had no righteousness. If they had, it would only be filthy rags. But now they find all their righteousness in the Lord Jesus Christ, "who of God is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption."
Do not ever quote Ezekiel 18 as though it were gospel. It is law. And then remember the "life" spoken of in Ezekiel is not eternal life in Christ. It is life here on earth prolonged under the divine government, because of obedience, or cut short because of sin
The phrase "Once Saved Always Saved" conveys the idea of "easy believism"; that someone can be saved, and go off and never care a whit for God and works of appreciation and love for Him. This term is more of a slander to monergists in my opinion, although I believe that anyone who is really saved will never lose that salvation. But, true faith produces works, as James said. The works are not to earn or merit salvation, though, they are done out of appreciation and love for God...not in slavish fear like those who try to deny eternal security possess.
A saved individual can backslide, even for long periods of time, but the Lord will chasten him and bring back the errant sheep into the fold, no matter what it takes. If someone leaves a profession of faith, and never returns, this is proof that they never possessed the faith....they only had a false profession of faith. Scriptures are consistent with this view.
I view this issue of eternal security to be one of maturity. Immature believers really don't understand the full nature of the grace of God and his unending love for those he's saved. So while a person can be saved and have a works oriented salvation, like I believe most who deny eternal security have, they are still saved. They are a bit like a man who goes on a cruise, and fills his luggage with cheese and peanut butter and crackers....unaware of the smorgasbord that is included in the price of the cruise...instead he stays in his small room and eats inferior food rather than enjoying the good stuff that he should be enjoying.
As a monergist, I believe God is sovereign in all things INCLUDING salvation. If anyone sincerely desires to study this in more depth, I highly recommend this pdf document.
http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/ironside/eternal.pdf
Regarding the specific verses that the thread originator posts, I will refer you to the PDF document but am producing the section that covers this verse here. Read this carefully and think about what it's saying. Realize that there was a difference in the covenant that God had with ancient Israel, which was one of works/law and material/national promises, and the one that he has with Christians, which is one of faith/grace and spiritual/individual promises. This is the difference between what it means to be an Israelite and a Christian. Some in the Old Testament had a real relationship with God based on faith, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, the prophets....however as the Old Testament clearly teaches, the nation of Israel as a whole didn't have that sort of relationship and never followed God wholeheartedly.
Q. Ezekiel 18: 24: "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?"
A. Is it not strange for anyone in this dispensation of grace to quote a passage like that, as though it had anything to do with the question of the soul's salvation? Go back and read Ezekiel 18. Of what is it treating?
We read in the twenty-first verse, "If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Is that grace? No, that is law.
That is just the quintessence of law. Do you believe that if a wicked man turns from his wickedness he will live?
If this is true, why did Jesus die? Would you preach that to sinners? Would you have me stand up and say, "You wicked people, you have been doing wickedness; you start in tonight to do righteousness and you will live"-would you have me preach that? I would be deliberately deceiving people if I told them that.
But you see here God was testing people under law and said, "The man that turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?
All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
And what has happened? Not one man ever continued in all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them. Therefore, they were all under sentence of death. How then were they to be saved?
By turning over a new leaf? Oh, no; but by confessing that they had no righteousness. If they had, it would only be filthy rags. But now they find all their righteousness in the Lord Jesus Christ, "who of God is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption."
Do not ever quote Ezekiel 18 as though it were gospel. It is law. And then remember the "life" spoken of in Ezekiel is not eternal life in Christ. It is life here on earth prolonged under the divine government, because of obedience, or cut short because of sin
While You are Going on about this & that, don't forget
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He will save His people from their sins.
He who began a good work in you, will complete it.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves not of works [like water baptism] lest anyone should boast.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He will save His people from their sins.
He who began a good work in you, will complete it.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves not of works [like water baptism] lest anyone should boast.
In other words you can sin and not surely die if you are indeed one of the saved.
An abstract view of salvation leads to theological nonsense like the sentiment expressed above, nonsense like the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints.
If people were to understand that salvation is actually "from" sin (ie. it involves a clean heart being effected) then one would know that "backsliding" and "being saved" cannot exist at the same time. One cannot be serving iniquity and be saved from iniquity at the same time. One cannot be a slave serving under the Egyptian whip and set free from the Egyptian whip at the same time.
Salvation is a manifest reality. It is real. It is not some fuzzy concept of the mind which one can claim and then go out and do evil occasionally.
One is either working iniquity from a corrupted heart or working righteousness from a pure heart. One cannot serve two masters.
[video=youtube;PPT2t096BCI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPT2t096BCI[/video]
An abstract view of salvation leads to theological nonsense like the sentiment expressed above, nonsense like the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints.
If people were to understand that salvation is actually "from" sin (ie. it involves a clean heart being effected) then one would know that "backsliding" and "being saved" cannot exist at the same time. One cannot be serving iniquity and be saved from iniquity at the same time. One cannot be a slave serving under the Egyptian whip and set free from the Egyptian whip at the same time.
Salvation is a manifest reality. It is real. It is not some fuzzy concept of the mind which one can claim and then go out and do evil occasionally.
One is either working iniquity from a corrupted heart or working righteousness from a pure heart. One cannot serve two masters.
[video=youtube;PPT2t096BCI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPT2t096BCI[/video]
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2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
How many people today believe that statement made by Peter? Not very many unfortunately.
Sin is viewed by many as an inherited disease and due to this salvation is merely a means of being justified while still bonded to this state. Thus many believe that God has saved them while they still serve their addictions and lusts, believing that this service will decrease over time as God slowly changes them. It is a deception. It is a false gospel.
Genuine salvation involves escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust. It is the lusts of the flesh which draw people into sin through temptation. The cycle of temptation/sin/temptation/sin quickly becomes a natural state of existence, hence a "sin nature" is wrought in the mind. Not a state of birth, rather a state which develops through the free exercise of the will in despising God.
The cross is the means of breaking this bondage, a bondage whereby we are enslaved to earning sins wages which is death. it is through the cross that this cycle is broken for we suffer with Christ in dying with Him. We die to the world, we die to the lusts of the flesh, our old man (who served sin) is crucified. This death occurs through repentance wrought via godly sorrow which is ultimately wrought via the grace of God working upon our hearts. As we yield to it a brokenness of such a degree is produced that it effects a total change of mind where we forsake sin as our master.
In turning to the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ as our new master we are raised up to newness of life by the power of God. We have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust, we are crucified with Christ, we are raised up with Christ, the Spirit of His life working through us. This is salvation. This is salvation from sin. We are no longer earning sins wages.
We are reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ and we find eternal life THROUGH Him. Through abiding in the Spirit of His life serve righteousness unto holiness the end of which is eternal life. If we endure to the end then we will receive the reward. If we turn back we will receive sins wages once again and be worse off than when we began because repentance is not an easy thing to find having despised a full knowledge of the truth.
"Once Saved Always Saved"?
"Perseverance of the Saints"?
These are the notions of men not of God. These notions are premised on salvation not being a manifest total transformation of the heart. These notions are premised on a denial of heart purity, which is why those who uphold these teachings NEVER teach on heart purity.
Don't be deceived.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
True Faith To Inherit Eternal Life
[video=youtube;9eL57nAm9Lo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo[/video]
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
How many people today believe that statement made by Peter? Not very many unfortunately.
Sin is viewed by many as an inherited disease and due to this salvation is merely a means of being justified while still bonded to this state. Thus many believe that God has saved them while they still serve their addictions and lusts, believing that this service will decrease over time as God slowly changes them. It is a deception. It is a false gospel.
Genuine salvation involves escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust. It is the lusts of the flesh which draw people into sin through temptation. The cycle of temptation/sin/temptation/sin quickly becomes a natural state of existence, hence a "sin nature" is wrought in the mind. Not a state of birth, rather a state which develops through the free exercise of the will in despising God.
The cross is the means of breaking this bondage, a bondage whereby we are enslaved to earning sins wages which is death. it is through the cross that this cycle is broken for we suffer with Christ in dying with Him. We die to the world, we die to the lusts of the flesh, our old man (who served sin) is crucified. This death occurs through repentance wrought via godly sorrow which is ultimately wrought via the grace of God working upon our hearts. As we yield to it a brokenness of such a degree is produced that it effects a total change of mind where we forsake sin as our master.
In turning to the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ as our new master we are raised up to newness of life by the power of God. We have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust, we are crucified with Christ, we are raised up with Christ, the Spirit of His life working through us. This is salvation. This is salvation from sin. We are no longer earning sins wages.
We are reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ and we find eternal life THROUGH Him. Through abiding in the Spirit of His life serve righteousness unto holiness the end of which is eternal life. If we endure to the end then we will receive the reward. If we turn back we will receive sins wages once again and be worse off than when we began because repentance is not an easy thing to find having despised a full knowledge of the truth.
"Once Saved Always Saved"?
"Perseverance of the Saints"?
These are the notions of men not of God. These notions are premised on salvation not being a manifest total transformation of the heart. These notions are premised on a denial of heart purity, which is why those who uphold these teachings NEVER teach on heart purity.
Don't be deceived.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
True Faith To Inherit Eternal Life
[video=youtube;9eL57nAm9Lo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo[/video]
Sorry not IMO
Hebrews 8:1-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Hebrews 8:1-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
interesting, some deep thought here thank you
Hebrews 8:1-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Hebrews 8:1-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
S
Denying the sin in your life is either self delusion or lying. Christians have sin in their lives. See I John 1:8-9. Christians should be confessing their sins to God continually.
1 John 1:8-9English Standard Version (ESV)[SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and [SUP](B)[/SUP]the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP][SUP](C)[/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is [SUP](D)[/SUP]faithful and just to forgive us our sins and [SUP](E)[/SUP]to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9English Standard Version (ESV)[SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and [SUP](B)[/SUP]the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP][SUP](C)[/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is [SUP](D)[/SUP]faithful and just to forgive us our sins and [SUP](E)[/SUP]to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
S
Are you speaking of the Church of Christ that was founded by Alexander Campbell? Some Church of Christ members are heretics that teach that other Christians are unsaved, that you must be baptized in a prescribed manner by their pastors and that baptism conveys the forgiveness of sins. They also teach trash like that the believer doesn't have the Holy Spirit indwelt. Apparently some Church of Christ members don't hold this position but are Arminian to the core.
Funny thing is, Alexander Campbell wasn't even baptized by his own prescribed method "for the remission of sins".
Funny thing is, Alexander Campbell wasn't even baptized by his own prescribed method "for the remission of sins".
The church of Christ founded by Christ at Pentecost in Acts 2.
As far as I know Campbell never founded any denomination, I know of no documents that indicate he founded any religious organization and Campbell said himself he did not found any religious group(s).
As reported by a New Orleans newspaper, Campbell said:
You have done me, gentlemen, too much honor in saying I am the “founder” of the denomination, quite numerous and respectable in many portions of the West, technically known as “Christians,” but more commonly as “Campbellites.”
I have always repudiated all human heads and human names for the people of the Lord, and shall feel very thankful if you will correct the erroneous impression which your article may have made in thus representing me as the founder of a religious denomination (Memoirs, ii.441)."
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/822-alexander-campbell-and-christs-church
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/822-alexander-campbell-and-christs-church
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Eph 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."
I am a member of Christ's one body/church for that is the only place salvation can be found.
Do you know a verse that says Christ is the Saviour of man-made denominations?
No verse says God teaches men directly, personally.
I am a member of Christ's one body/church for that is the only place salvation can be found.
Do you know a verse that says Christ is the Saviour of man-made denominations?
No verse says God teaches men directly, personally.
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