OSAS supporters, explain these, if you will please.

[sparkman]

maybe but he did not lie though , that was what i wanted to correct

Some hold that view...I do not. It was lack of faith in God regardless, which is at the root of all sin. He didn't think God could protect him from Abimelech.

I don't have to look very far to find other examples of individuals who sinned but were still saved. Lot got drunk and had sex with his daughters. Noah got drunk. David committed adultery and killed the woman's husband to hide it. Peter lied and denied Christ. The Corinthian man had sex with his stepmother and later repented.

The sinless perfection people don't have a leg to stand on. A simple reading of the Bible should convince them of their foolishness. They probably sin daily and either lie about it or deceive themselves about it. Better to have humility and believe in God's grace, confess it and move on.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

nope, lol. John Stamos, YES, mel gibson nope.

Oikos Yogurt!

First thing I think of when I think of John Stamos. And yes, he's very cute.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Those verses I quoted have to do with the indwelling of Christ, the Holy Ghost and the word and that the indwelling of Christ and the HS is equivalent to the indwelling of the word.

The new birth is water baptism.

Jn 3:5--------spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body

So here we have two verses that deal with the new birth and since there is just one way to be born again both verses must express the same idea therefore "born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13.

Been over this before and it is exactly why I know you do not understand the new birth. The "new birth" is: - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . . . just as 1 Corinthians 12:13 says - For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body . . . .

Mt 7:21 Jesus said those that DOETH the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of God.
Jn 3:5 says those born of water and spirit enter the kingdom of heaven.

Since there is just one way to enter the kingdom/be saved, then being born of water and of the spirit must be DOING the will of God. Being water baptized is DOING the will of God. Being born again is something one DOES...one submits himself to water baptism.

There is only one way to be saved and that is through faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ which results in being born again of the Spirit. Not going to dwell on this water baptism thing again - water baptism is a foreshadow of that which was to come - it is a symbol of death and resurrection with Christ - BUT there came one mightier and he baptizes with Holy Spirit - that is the one baptism.

You posted "That is the one body, the church, of which Christ is the head and one is only part of that body if they are born again of the Spirit"

So those in Acts 2 that obeyed Peters' command in v38 to be water baptized/born again and were DOING the will of God and therefore added to that one church verse 47. No one in Acts 2 that had faith only were added to the one church.

For one thing water does nothing but wash the outside of a person and can not change the heart of a person only the work of the holy Spirit can change the heart of a person that is why one must be born again of the Spirit. All those added to the church were born again of the Spirit or else they wouldn't have been added to the church. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved - because they were water baptized? - No because they confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and believed in their heart that God raised him from the dead [Rom. 10:9,10] - they believed in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and were born again of the Spirit.

 

[sparkman]

The BIBLE teaches the purpose of baptism is "for remission of sins" Acts 2:38.

Is anyone going to be saved who are still lost in their unremitted/unforgiven sins?

So anyone that does not believe the false teachings you follow is a "cult"?

The Greek word that was translated "for" is eis. A legitimate translation of this word could be "because of". We are baptized "because of" the remission of sin. It is a public testimony that our sins have been forgiven when we placed our faith in Christ. Baptism is a first act of obedience, but it comes AFTER salvation, not to OBTAIN salvation.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Luke 5:13-14 Luke 5:13-14[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately the leprosy left him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he charged him [SUP](A)[/SUP]to tell no one, but “go and show [SUP](B)[/SUP]yourself to the priest, and [SUP](C)[/SUP]make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, [SUP](D)[/SUP]for a proof to them.”

Now, the word "for" in "make an offering for your cleansing" is the same word eis as in the phrase "baptized for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38. Was the leper cleansed prior to making the offering, or before it? Verse 13 plainly says that he was cleansed by Jesus before the offering was made. The offering was merely a public acknowledgement of this cleansing. Baptism is exactly the same.

All such Campbellite "proof texts" can be resolved with similar critical thinking. I am not bringing this up to persecute you. I was caught up in similar horrible teaching by another group for many years. Just the fact that you deny the Christianity of other believers who think differently on such things is a very bad sign.

 

[sparkman]

Nothing in the context of Heb 5:9 says Christ saves those who do no obedient works. But says just the opposite, Christ saves those that obey Him, and Rom 1:5; 5:19; 16:26 do not contradict or change Heb 5:9 but agree with it

Here's the proper order of events in salvation:
1. Hear the gospel 2. Faith 3. Repentance 4. Salvation (forgiveness of sins) 5. Receipt of the Holy Spirit 6. Obedience (including baptism, which is an act of obedience).

Faith and repentance are all one movement..turning from a fundamental orientation toward sin and disbelief toward God and belief.

Seabass, your words indicate that you think obedience comes before salvation...in other words, you expect a sinner to do the work of baptism in order to be saved...obedience comes from salvation...you're putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Fishbait]

Why does it need to be a challenge? if every body is right then somebodies wrong.

Interpreting the Bible can be confusing and some people can be wrong. I had a very religious person tell me that in the time of Christ they had automoblies. I told him that he was wrong. He said that in the Bible it states that the disciples were all in an Accord and met on Soloman's porch.

He back up what he said with:

"And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.)" Acts 5:12

 

[BlackPlatypus]

[h=1]Q & A: Conditional Salvation?
Ask a Bible Teacher[/h]

A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

I keep getting questions from people who wonder if Rev. 3:5 denies OSAS. Usually these questions come from folks who believe in OSAS but have had Rev. 3:5 used against them by those who don’t. They write in hoping I’ll have an answer that will confirm their belief and that they can also use to defend it the next time they are confronted with this verse. (Continues)

Dear God, please let those who use Revelation 3:5 against the faithful so as to deny the son of God's sacrifice and your grace of eternal salvation read this article and repent of their sins.

Let Sardis remain as a message for today's lost and those who intend to deceive the sheep in your fold. Amen.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Q & A: Conditional Salvation?
Ask a Bible Teacher

A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

I keep getting questions from people who wonder if Rev. 3:5 denies OSAS. Usually these questions come from folks who believe in OSAS but have had Rev. 3:5 used against them by those who don’t. They write in hoping I’ll have an answer that will confirm their belief and that they can also use to defend it the next time they are confronted with this verse. (Continues)

Dear God, please let those who use Revelation 3:5 against the faithful so as to deny the son of God's sacrifice and your grace of eternal salvation read this article and repent of their sins.

Let Sardis remain as a message for today's lost and those who intend to deceive the sheep in your fold. Amen.

Anybody can come up with something that supports their view point...does not make it truth.

I can find studies done, and bible teachers that teach against OSAS.

As a matter of fact I posted not to long ago a full out study that showed how the early church did not teach OSAS, they taught the opposite. It showed how for the first 500 years of the church it was not taught.

Why would there be warnings of turning back to willful sin, or how one can fall away if it were not possible and didn't happen ?

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Anybody can come up with something that supports their view point...does not make it truth.

Don't let God's eternal world change your mind one bit.

Realizing you don't realize you just indicted your own argument with that proclamation, and insist on calling scripture a lie, we're done here.

 

[sparkman]

Those verses I quoted have to do with the indwelling of Christ, the Holy Ghost and the word and that the indwelling of Christ and the HS is equivalent to the indwelling of the word.

The new birth is water baptism.

Jn 3:5--------spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body

So here we have two verses that deal with the new birth and since there is just one way to be born again both verses must express the same idea therefore "born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13.

Mt 7:21 Jesus said those that DOETH the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of God.
Jn 3:5 says those born of water and spirit enter the kingdom of heaven.

Since there is just one way to enter the kingdom/be saved, then being born of water and of the spirit must be DOING the will of God. Being water baptized is DOING the will of God. Being born again is something one DOES...one submits himself to water baptism.

You posted "That is the one body, the church, of which Christ is the head and one is only part of that body if they are born again of the Spirit"

So those in Acts 2 that obeyed Peters' command in v38 to be water baptized/born again and were DOING the will of God and therefore added to that one church verse 47. No one in Acts 2 that had faith only were added to the one church.

Regarding John 3:5, why are you stating that this refers to water baptism when you don't believe that baptism for the remission of sins began until the day of Pentecost?

Here's the Scriptures and my view of them:

John 5 3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named [SUP](A)[/SUP]Nicodemus, [SUP](B)[/SUP]a ruler of the Jews. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This man came to Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP](C)[/SUP]by night and said to him, [SUP](D)[/SUP]“Rabbi, [SUP](E)[/SUP]we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do [SUP](F)[/SUP]unless God is with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is [SUP](G)[/SUP]born [SUP](H)[/SUP]again[SUP][b][/SUP] he cannot [SUP](I)[/SUP]see the kingdom of God.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born [SUP](J)[/SUP]of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP][SUP](K)[/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is [SUP](L)[/SUP]flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP](M)[/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[SUP][d][/SUP] must be born [SUP](N)[/SUP]again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP](O)[/SUP]The wind[SUP][e][/SUP] blows [SUP](P)[/SUP]where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

There are 3 different ways to view verse 5 that are consistent with salvation by grace through faith alone, and don't fall into the error of baptismal regeneration teachings.

1) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, it is talking about the physical birth when speaking of water, and the spiritual birth when speaking of Spirit. How can water be a symbol of physical birth? A phase in late pregnancy is when the "water breaks". Consult a human reproduction textbook for further details.
2) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, it is talking about being exposed to the Gospel message the word of truth, which is symbolized by water in some verses (James 1:18, I Pet 1:23, Eph 5:26), and the spiritual birth.
3) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, the phrase in the Greek is actually metaphoric language. The word "and" in Greek is "kai" and can be translated as "even". The resulting phrase is "water even spirit" which simply conveys the meaning of the spiritual birth. In John 7:38, water is viewed as being emblematic of the Spirit.

I personally do not think the first possibility is correct but it is reasonable. I think the second and third possibility have a lot more merit, and I lean a bit more toward the third possibility.

It seems like whenever a Campbellite COCer sees the word water in Scripture, he is drawn to it almost like a moth to a flame, and seeks to convert it into a proof text or sermon on water baptism....

Regarding Acts 2:38 the Greek word that was translated "for" is eis. A legitimate translation of this word is "because of". We are baptized "because of" the remission of sin. It is a public testimony that our sins have been forgiven when we placed our faith in Christ. Baptism is a first act of obedience, but it comes AFTER salvation, not to OBTAIN salvation.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Luke 5:13-14 Luke 5:13-14[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately the leprosy left him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he charged him [SUP](A)[/SUP]to tell no one, but “go and show [SUP](B)[/SUP]yourself to the priest, and [SUP](C)[/SUP]make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, [SUP](D)[/SUP]for a proof to them.”

Now, the word "for" in "make an offering for your cleansing" is the same word eis as in the phrase "baptized for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38. Was the leper cleansed prior to making the offering, or before it? Verse 13 plainly says that he was cleansed by Jesus before the offering was made. The offering was merely a public acknowledgement of this cleansing. Baptism is exactly the same.

All such Campbellite "proof texts" can be resolved with similar critical thinking. I am not bringing this up to persecute you. I was caught up in similar horrible teaching by another group for many years. Just the fact that you deny the Christianity of other believers who think differently on such things is a very bad sign.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Don't let God's eternal world change your mind one bit.

Realizing you don't realize you just indicted your own argument with that proclamation, and insist on calling scripture a lie, we're done here.

I did not call scripture a lie, nowhere did I say that.

That is just how people like you get when shown scriptures they don't like. They want to put a false assumption and blame on those who disagree with you.

What happened to do not bear false witness.

What I said was you posted something from a bible teacher, my response was anybody can come up with something to match their view point. Just because some one calls themselves a bible teacher does not mean they teach truth.

The other thing I mentioned was a study that was done to show the early church for the first 500 years did not teach OSAS.

 

[newbirth]

Here's the proper order of events in salvation:
1. Hear the gospel 2. Faith 3. Repentance 4. Salvation (forgiveness of sins) 5. Receipt of the Holy Spirit 6. Obedience (including baptism, which is an act of obedience).

Faith and repentance are all one movement..turning from a fundamental orientation toward sin and disbelief toward God and belief.

Seabass, your words indicate that you think obedience comes before salvation...in other words, you expect a sinner to do the work of baptism in order to be saved...obedience comes from salvation...you're putting the cart before the horse.

We are saved by grace through faith......Faith comes by hearing...what did we hear ....repent and be baptised...salvation is continuous through faith...it does not end unless we give up the faith ,if we continue we receive the promise when we die or Christ returns.....
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Hoffco]

Looking back on 53 yrs. of walking with Jesus, I can see how God has been quietly working in me to save me eternally and how I had to be active in each step to be saved; But I know without God taking the lead and directing my steps along the way, it would never had happened. Praise God for His saving Grace! Love to all, Hoffco

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Looking back on 53 yrs. of walking with Jesus, I can see how God has been quietly working in me to save me eternally and how I had to be active in each step to be saved; But I know without God taking the lead and directing my steps along the way, it would never had happened. Praise God for His saving Grace! Love to all, Hoffco

In all that time during your walk, did you ever think Jesus would strip you of eternal life? And eternal salvation if you made a mistake?

 

[phil112]

Reckon I'm gonna hafta to take some time and catch up here. Tomorrow I'll prolly find time. Been doing chores and getting things done while I feel like it. The OP was rhetorical and I haven't clicked on this thread since. I hope everyone been minding their manners.

 

[phil112]

Ezekiel 33
12. Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

13. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

18. When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Went to church and got off on another subject. Well, actually a couple of other thoughts. To sum up this post, these scriptures are just as plain as the new testament ones describing backsliding. It is a fact. We are warned time and again not to. If we do, true repentence is available.

What it boils down to is simply this: OSAS believers don't accept that one's salvation is dependent on each individual. They hinge their whole doctrine on the fact that no one can take your salvation away. That is true. But very clearly you can give it back. That is also true and qualified often in the new and old testaments. That is as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[sparkman]

Went to church and got off on another subject. Well, actually a couple of other thoughts. To sum up this post, these scriptures are just as plain as the new testament ones describing backsliding. It is a fact. We are warned time and again not to. If we do, true repentence is available.

What it boils down to is simply this: OSAS believers don't accept that one's salvation is dependent on each individual. They hinge their whole doctrine on the fact that no one can take your salvation away. That is true. But very clearly you can give it back. That is also true and qualified often in the new and old testaments. That is as plain as the nose on your face.

I consider this issue to be a matter of spiritual maturity..those who deny eternal security need to grow up and believe in God's unending love and his grace.

Regarding how you are using these verses, consider the following...link to the source below:

Q. Ezekiel 18: 24: "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?"

A. Is it not strange for anyone in this dispensation of grace to quote a passage like that, as though it had anything to do with the question of the soul's salvation? Go back and read Ezekiel 18. Of what is it treating?

We read in the twenty-first verse, "If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Is that grace? No, that is law.

That is just the quintessence of law. Do you believe that if a wicked man turns from his wickedness he will live?

If this is true, why did Jesus die? Would you preach that to sinners? Would you have me stand up and say, "You wicked people, you have been doing wickedness; you start in tonight to do righteousness and you will live"-would you have me preach that? I would be deliberately deceiving people if I told them that.

But you see here God was testing people under law and said, "The man that turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?

All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

And what has happened? Not one man ever continued in all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them. Therefore, they were all under sentence of death. How then were they to be saved?

By turning over a new leaf? Oh, no; but by confessing that they had no righteousness. If they had, it would only be filthy rags. But now they find all their righteousness in the Lord Jesus Christ, "who of God is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption."

Do not ever quote Ezekiel 18 as though it were gospel. It is law. And then remember the "life" spoken of in Ezekiel is not eternal life in Christ. It is life here on earth prolonged under the divine government, because of obedience, or cut short because of sin

http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/ironside/eternal.pdf

 

[SeaBass]

Regarding John 3:5, why are you stating that this refers to water baptism when you don't believe that baptism for the remission of sins began until the day of Pentecost?

Heb 9:16,17 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Therefore water baptism in the name of Christ for the remission of sins would not take effect until some time after Christ died. Luke's account of the great commission of Christ's baptism, Lk 24:47, did not take effect until Pentecost.

Here's the Scriptures and my view of them:

John 5 3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named [SUP](A)[/SUP]Nicodemus, [SUP](B)[/SUP]a ruler of the Jews. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This man came to Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP](C)[/SUP]by night and said to him, [SUP](D)[/SUP]“Rabbi, [SUP](E)[/SUP]we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do [SUP](F)[/SUP]unless God is with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is [SUP](G)[/SUP]born [SUP](H)[/SUP]again[SUP][b][/SUP] he cannot [SUP](I)[/SUP]see the kingdom of God.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born [SUP](J)[/SUP]of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP][SUP](K)[/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is [SUP](L)[/SUP]flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP](M)[/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[SUP][d][/SUP] must be born [SUP](N)[/SUP]again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP](O)[/SUP]The wind[SUP][e][/SUP] blows [SUP](P)[/SUP]where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

There are 3 different ways to view verse 5 that are consistent with salvation by grace through faith alone, and don't fall into the error of baptismal regeneration teachings.

1) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, it is talking about the physical birth when speaking of water, and the spiritual birth when speaking of Spirit. How can water be a symbol of physical birth? A phase in late pregnancy is when the "water breaks". Consult a human reproduction textbook for further details.
2) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, it is talking about being exposed to the Gospel message the word of truth, which is symbolized by water in some verses (James 1:18, I Pet 1:23, Eph 5:26), and the spiritual birth.
3) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, the phrase in the Greek is actually metaphoric language. The word "and" in Greek is "kai" and can be translated as "even". The resulting phrase is "water even spirit" which simply conveys the meaning of the spiritual birth. In John 7:38, water is viewed as being emblematic of the Spirit.

I personally do not think the first possibility is correct but it is reasonable. I think the second and third possibility have a lot more merit, and I lean a bit more toward the third possibility.

It seems like whenever a Campbellite COCer sees the word water in Scripture, he is drawn to it almost like a moth to a flame, and seeks to convert it into a proof text or sermon on water baptism....

Regarding Acts 2:38 the Greek word that was translated "for" is eis. A legitimate translation of this word is "because of". We are baptized "because of" the remission of sin. It is a public testimony that our sins have been forgiven when we placed our faith in Christ. Baptism is a first act of obedience, but it comes AFTER salvation, not to OBTAIN salvation.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Luke 5:13-14 Luke 5:13-14[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately the leprosy left him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he charged him [SUP](A)[/SUP]to tell no one, but “go and show [SUP](B)[/SUP]yourself to the priest, and [SUP](C)[/SUP]make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, [SUP](D)[/SUP]for a proof to them.”

Now, the word "for" in "make an offering for your cleansing" is the same word eis as in the phrase "baptized for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38. Was the leper cleansed prior to making the offering, or before it? Verse 13 plainly says that he was cleansed by Jesus before the offering was made. The offering was merely a public acknowledgement of this cleansing. Baptism is exactly the same.

All such Campbellite "proof texts" can be resolved with similar critical thinking. I am not bringing this up to persecute you. I was caught up in similar horrible teaching by another group for many years. Just the fact that you deny the Christianity of other believers who think differently on such things is a very bad sign.

None of the three are plausible, again the bible is it's own best commentary:

Jn 3:5---------spirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-----spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>in the body

Here are two born again verses and since there is just one way to be born again both verses MUST express the SAME idea. Therefore "spirit" of Jn 35 is equivalent to "spirit" of 1 Cor 12:13. "Born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to 'baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13. And "in the kingdom" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "in the body" of 1 Cor 12:13.

The Greek word in Acts 2:38 is "eis" and the Greek word in Lk 5:14 the Greek word is peri in the phrase "for thy cleansing". Two different Greek words so you have no valid argument here at all. In instead of calling people names, you time would be better spent in doing more studying.

 

[SeaBass]

Regarding John 3:5, why are you stating that this refers to water baptism when you don't believe that baptism for the remission of sins began until the day of Pentecost?

Heb 9:16,17 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Therefore water baptism in the name of Christ for the remission of sins would not take effect until some time after Christ died. Luke's account of the great commission of Christ's baptism, Lk 24:47, did not take effect until Pentecost.

Here's the Scriptures and my view of them:

John 5 3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named [SUP](A)[/SUP]Nicodemus, [SUP](B)[/SUP]a ruler of the Jews. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This man came to Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP](C)[/SUP]by night and said to him, [SUP](D)[/SUP]“Rabbi, [SUP](E)[/SUP]we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do [SUP](F)[/SUP]unless God is with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is [SUP](G)[/SUP]born [SUP](H)[/SUP]again[SUP][b][/SUP] he cannot [SUP](I)[/SUP]see the kingdom of God.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born [SUP](J)[/SUP]of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP][SUP](K)[/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is [SUP](L)[/SUP]flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP](M)[/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[SUP][d][/SUP] must be born [SUP](N)[/SUP]again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP](O)[/SUP]The wind[SUP][e][/SUP] blows [SUP](P)[/SUP]where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

There are 3 different ways to view verse 5 that are consistent with salvation by grace through faith alone, and don't fall into the error of baptismal regeneration teachings.

1) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, it is talking about the physical birth when speaking of water, and the spiritual birth when speaking of Spirit. How can water be a symbol of physical birth? A phase in late pregnancy is when the "water breaks". Consult a human reproduction textbook for further details.
2) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, it is talking about being exposed to the Gospel message the word of truth, which is symbolized by water in some verses (James 1:18, I Pet 1:23, Eph 5:26), and the spiritual birth.
3) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, the phrase in the Greek is actually metaphoric language. The word "and" in Greek is "kai" and can be translated as "even". The resulting phrase is "water even spirit" which simply conveys the meaning of the spiritual birth. In John 7:38, water is viewed as being emblematic of the Spirit.

I personally do not think the first possibility is correct but it is reasonable. I think the second and third possibility have a lot more merit, and I lean a bit more toward the third possibility.

It seems like whenever a Campbellite COCer sees the word water in Scripture, he is drawn to it almost like a moth to a flame, and seeks to convert it into a proof text or sermon on water baptism....

Regarding Acts 2:38 the Greek word that was translated "for" is eis. A legitimate translation of this word is "because of". We are baptized "because of" the remission of sin. It is a public testimony that our sins have been forgiven when we placed our faith in Christ. Baptism is a first act of obedience, but it comes AFTER salvation, not to OBTAIN salvation.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Luke 5:13-14 Luke 5:13-14[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately the leprosy left him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he charged him [SUP](A)[/SUP]to tell no one, but “go and show [SUP](B)[/SUP]yourself to the priest, and [SUP](C)[/SUP]make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, [SUP](D)[/SUP]for a proof to them.”

Now, the word "for" in "make an offering for your cleansing" is the same word eis as in the phrase "baptized for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38. Was the leper cleansed prior to making the offering, or before it? Verse 13 plainly says that he was cleansed by Jesus before the offering was made. The offering was merely a public acknowledgement of this cleansing. Baptism is exactly the same.

All such Campbellite "proof texts" can be resolved with similar critical thinking. I am not bringing this up to persecute you. I was caught up in similar horrible teaching by another group for many years. Just the fact that you deny the Christianity of other believers who think differently on such things is a very bad sign.

None of the three are plausible, again the bible is it's own best commentary:

Jn 3:5---------spirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-----spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>in the body

Here are two born again verses and since there is just one way to be born again both verses MUST express the SAME idea. Therefore "spirit" of Jn 35 is equivalent to "spirit" of 1 Cor 12:13. "Born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to 'baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13. And "in the kingdom" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "in the body" of 1 Cor 12:13.

The Greek word in Acts 2:38 is "eis" and the Greek word in Lk 5:14 the Greek word is peri in the phrase "for thy cleansing". Two different Greek words so you have no valid argument here at all. In instead of calling people names, your time would be better spent in doing more studying.