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Re: While You are Going on about this & that, don't forget
Why do you continue to leave out Phil 1:5?????
verse 5- For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
verse 6-Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Two sides of salvation:
1) man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man
Verse 5 shows man's faithfulness to God is there remaining faithful in the gospel from the first day until now. In turn in verse 6 shows God will be faithful to them by continuing that good work in them.
No eternal security in this passage at all.
No verse says God will remain faithful to save those that turn on Him becoming unfaithful to Him.
Why do you continue to leave out Phil 1:5?????
verse 5- For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
verse 6-Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Two sides of salvation:
1) man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man
Verse 5 shows man's faithfulness to God is there remaining faithful in the gospel from the first day until now. In turn in verse 6 shows God will be faithful to them by continuing that good work in them.
No eternal security in this passage at all.
No verse says God will remain faithful to save those that turn on Him becoming unfaithful to Him.
S
So, you are a Campbellite. It is sad that you claim to be sinless yet don't believe you have the Holy Spirit. Are you aware that the Holy Spirit is the agent of sanctification?
In fact, you can't even be a Christian unless you have the Holy Spirit so your own words condemn you. The indwelt presence of the Holy Spirit is an inherent measure of a believer.
Romans 8:9 [SUP]9 [/SUP]You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact [SUP](Q)[/SUP]the Spirit of God dwells in you. [SUP](R)[/SUP]Anyone who does not have [SUP](S)[/SUP]the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
No such thing as a Campbellite. That is simply a made up term used by those that cannot defend their false teachings, so all they have left is revert to name calling.
I read some of your posts and you provided no biblical evidence to support "Preservearance of the Holy Spirit". So do you have any factual evidence that support Campbell founded the church of Christ?
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S
Funny thing is that none of the four founders of the Campbellite cult were baptized by the method that is required by Campbellite churches today. They were not baptized "for the remission of sins" as their baptism regeneration doctrine required. Due to their belief that they alone are saved due to their "proper baptism" and their denial of the Holy Spirit's indwelling of the Christian, the Campbellite faction of the Church of Christ is rightly considered a cult.
For the truth about the Campbellites and the heretical nature of their teachings, see these books by Bob L. Ross:
Campbellism: Its History and Heresies
Acts 2:38 and Baptismal Remission
There are also a lot of videos by Christian Answers on YouTube where Bob Ross debates Campbellites from the Church of Christ on these topics.
Denial of eternal security is intrinsic to their position, as they don't think the believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at all. If one denies the power of the indwelt Holy Spirit in sanctification, what hope is there for salvation? That is a major reason why we as Christians are given the Holy Spirit. As I indicated in my comments above, our eternal salvation is guaranteed by the perseverance of the Holy Spirit...it's not about us and our power, but all about God and his power!!!! Praise be to our great God, who has given us the gift of eternal life and the power of his Holy Spirit, which shall be victorious in those who are truly His!!!!
For the truth about the Campbellites and the heretical nature of their teachings, see these books by Bob L. Ross:
Campbellism: Its History and Heresies
Acts 2:38 and Baptismal Remission
There are also a lot of videos by Christian Answers on YouTube where Bob Ross debates Campbellites from the Church of Christ on these topics.
Denial of eternal security is intrinsic to their position, as they don't think the believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at all. If one denies the power of the indwelt Holy Spirit in sanctification, what hope is there for salvation? That is a major reason why we as Christians are given the Holy Spirit. As I indicated in my comments above, our eternal salvation is guaranteed by the perseverance of the Holy Spirit...it's not about us and our power, but all about God and his power!!!! Praise be to our great God, who has given us the gift of eternal life and the power of his Holy Spirit, which shall be victorious in those who are truly His!!!!
All that matters is what the bible teaches about baptism not what any man teaches.
The Holy Spirit does indwell the Christain by means of His word.
Who is Bob Ross? Is Bob Ross just another false teacher with a bias against Christ's church? Where does Bob Ross get his supposed "facts" from? Anyone can write a book and write what they desire, but proving what they write is something else.
So far you have only given your opinion about the church of Christ and eternal security, no proof.
What verse says "once saved always saved"?
The Holy Spirit does indwell the Christain by means of His word.
Who is Bob Ross? Is Bob Ross just another false teacher with a bias against Christ's church? Where does Bob Ross get his supposed "facts" from? Anyone can write a book and write what they desire, but proving what they write is something else.
So far you have only given your opinion about the church of Christ and eternal security, no proof.
What verse says "once saved always saved"?
S
Clever diversion...you deny that the Holy Spirit indwells the Spirit....that we are the temple of God. Using that "word only" position is merely a diversion. And, Campbell did indeed teach these heresies so claiming you aren't a Campbellite, while accepting his teachings wholeheartedly, is also a diversion.
S
Bob gets his facts from the Bible. And I challenge you to get the books and read them thoroughly. Your eternal destiny could depend on it...as I don't believe there's any salvation in Campbellite theology. Denying the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is very serious.
I was once fooled by a cult called Worldwide Church of God. It cost me 15 years of my life wasted listening to and believing nonsense.
Regarding Scriptures teaching eternal security, do you want me to list them? I will if you want. Obviously there's no Scripture mentioning the phrase "one saved always saved" but Scripture teaches the concept clearly.
I was once fooled by a cult called Worldwide Church of God. It cost me 15 years of my life wasted listening to and believing nonsense.
Regarding Scriptures teaching eternal security, do you want me to list them? I will if you want. Obviously there's no Scripture mentioning the phrase "one saved always saved" but Scripture teaches the concept clearly.
There is no diversion at all. I just asked a straight question to which you cannot respond.
When false teachers get exposed by the truth of God's word, then they resort to name calling for that is all they have left in their arsenal. The irony of the name calling is not only can they not biblically defend their false doctrine but they cannot even prove Campbell founded the church of Christ. They are already in a hole with their false teachings but only dig that hole dipper with their name calling.
Some years ago there was a debate between a gospel preacher and a Baptist preacher. It was scheduled to last 3 or 4 hours. I did not get to go due to work but I had relatives that went who informed me it was over with within the first 45 minutes. All the Baptist preacher could do after his false teachings were exposed was to call the gospel minister "stupid" "crazy" a "Campbellite", etc, etc. People began to leave including my relatives. None wanted to sit around for another 2 or 3 hours hearing one man call another man names....it was over. So that Baptist preacher could call us all the names he cared to but at the end of the day he was still left holding his bag full of false teachings.
The Holy Spirit does indwell in the Christ by means of the word.
Two parallel passages:
Col 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
Eph 5:18,19 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord."
Letting the word dwell in you of Col 2:18 is equivalent to being filled with the spirit in Eph 5:18. So the Holy Spirit indwells one through His word. Note also that "let the word dwell in you" of Col 3:18 and "be filled with the spirit" of Eph 5:18 are both in the imperative mood. How can one obey this command to be filled with the Spirit? By doing what the WORD says to do in speaking, singing, making melody, giving, submitting. So if one is not doing what the WORD says to do then he is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
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What facts does "Bob" have about Campbell founding the church of Christ and where did he get these supposed "facts"?
Facts would show the church of Christ existed before Campbell even knew what it was, that the church of Christ existed in America before Campbell ever got here:
“Campbellites”
First, Alexander Campbell (1788-1866) never started a church (or claimed such), even though reference works frequently refer to him as “founder” of the “Christian Churches” and “Churches of Christ.”
Robert Owen, the English “Free-thinker” who came to America to establish a movement of “social reform,” was, according to A.B. Barret, the first man to employ the epithet, “Campbellite” (The Shattered Chain, 32). Those who so enjoy utilizing this misnomer are indebted to infidelity for it.
It is a tragedy that the man who labored the bulk of his adult life with a view to encouraging others to abandon sectarianism should himself be accused of being the head and founder of the “Campbellite” church. The reformer utterly repudiated the desination. In 1826 Campbell wrote:
“Some religious editors in Kentucky call those who are desirous of seeing the ancient order of things restored, “the Restotationers,” “the camphellites”. . . This may go well with some; but all who fear God and keep his commands will pity and deplore the weakness and folly of those who either think to convince or to persuade by such means" (The Christian Baptist, Vol. IV, 88-89).
In 1828 Mr. Campbell responded to the question: “What is Campbellism?” in the following fashion:
“It is a nickname of reproach invented and adopted by those whose views, feelings and desires are all sectarian – who cannot conceive of Christianity in any other light than an ISM” (Christian Baptist, Vol. V.270).
“Mr. Campbell never for a moment entertained the thought of becoming the head of a party or of allowing himself to he recognized as the founder of a religious denomination” (Memoirs, ii.441).
Once when Campbell was in New Orleans, a local newspaper characterized him as the “founder” of a denomination. Mr. Campbell was not pleased. He penned a letter to the editor:
You have done me, gentlemen, too much honor in saying I am the “founder” of the denomination, quite numerous and respectable in many portions of the West, technically known as “Christians,” but more commonly as “Campbellites.”
I have always repudiated all human heads and human names for the people of the Lord, and shall feel very thankful if you will correct the erroneous impression which your article may have made in thus representing me as the founder of a religious denomination (Memoirs, ii.441).
lt is a matter of historical record that there were churches of Christ – both in Europe and in America – before Alexander Campbell had a clear concept of what primitive Christianity was all about. Leslie G. Thomas has documented New Testament churches in Scotland, England, and Ireland, dating between 1778 and 1810 (The Restoration Handbook, 73). Historical accounts reveal that the Old Philadelphia congregation of the Lord’s people, which was near Morrison, Tennessee, was organized in the year 1810. Alexander Campbell was not baptized until 1812, and he continued to he affiliated with the Baptists until the 1820s.
Churches of Christ do not owe their origin to Campbell or any other human leader.
The fact that some, therefore, delight in using the term “Campbellite” to refer to those who choose to be called simply “Christians,” rather than wearing humanly-devised titles, is more of a commentary upon their characters than anything else.
Why is it that so many religionists have such a difficult time being comfortable with the name “Christian,” and that alone (cf. Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16)? The use of human titles is sinful (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:10ff).
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/822-alexander-campbell-and-christs-church
Alexander Campbell and Christ’s Church
BY WAYNE JACKSON
How can "Bob" or anyone honestly, factually that Campbell started a religious organization when Campbell did not even claim that for himself?
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S
My understanding is that Campbellites teach that others outside of those baptized by their prescribed method are unsaved.."for the remission of sins"....are unsaved. Is this correct? In other words, would you affirm that other individuals on this site who aren't baptized "for the remission of sins" are brothers in Christ? If a person here views baptism simply as an important act of obedience that follows salvation, as a statement of his identification with Christ and his unity with Jesus Christ, would you consider him a brother?
The exclusivism of the Campbellite faction within the Church of Christ is what makes them a cult...denial of the Christianity of others that aren't baptized in a way that meets their understanding of baptism. They claim that justification isn't final until baptism occurs..in other words, salvation isn't finished until after baptism. And even then, the person doesn't have eternal life...it's a religion devoid of grace. On top of that, they declare that the believer doesn't have the indwelt spiritual presence of God that is the very agent of sanctification....
The exclusivism of the Campbellite faction within the Church of Christ is what makes them a cult...denial of the Christianity of others that aren't baptized in a way that meets their understanding of baptism. They claim that justification isn't final until baptism occurs..in other words, salvation isn't finished until after baptism. And even then, the person doesn't have eternal life...it's a religion devoid of grace. On top of that, they declare that the believer doesn't have the indwelt spiritual presence of God that is the very agent of sanctification....
"the Holy Spirit indwells one through His word" - The Holy Spirit indwells one by being born again of Spirit . . . .
We hear the word, we obtain faith by believing that word - we are born again not with corruptible seed but of incorruptible seed by or through the word of God - Now the Spirit of God via the Holy Spirit lives and dwells in us through incorruptible seed. We are filled with the Spirit - born again of the Spirit through our faith in Jesus Christ. The Spirit that now dwells in us leads and guides us.
We have an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven . . . we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation . . . . It is God through our faith in Jesus Christ that sets us apart (sanctifies) us, It is God through our faith in his Son that has begotten us . . .
We hear the word, we obtain faith by believing that word - we are born again not with corruptible seed but of incorruptible seed by or through the word of God - Now the Spirit of God via the Holy Spirit lives and dwells in us through incorruptible seed. We are filled with the Spirit - born again of the Spirit through our faith in Jesus Christ. The Spirit that now dwells in us leads and guides us.
We have an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven . . . we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation . . . . It is God through our faith in Jesus Christ that sets us apart (sanctifies) us, It is God through our faith in his Son that has begotten us . . .
People like you isolate and snip verses from the Bible and ignore the surrounding context.
In this example you are snipping two verses out of context to prove "sin you will and sin you must."
John is reinforcing the methodology on coming clean with God in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness, of all sin. We cannot approach God seeking cleansing if we don't come clean about our sin, thus we cannot say we have no sin or that we never sinned.
John is not teaching that Christian's are always filthy.
The Bible teaches righteousness not perpetual sinfulness.
Jesus said "go and sin no more" not "sin some more and keep admitting it."
People like you obviously do not believe the Bible.
Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Keeping the commandments of Jesus is the opposite of sinning every day.
Heart purity is the opposite of perpetual sinfulness.
In this example you are snipping two verses out of context to prove "sin you will and sin you must."
John is reinforcing the methodology on coming clean with God in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness, of all sin. We cannot approach God seeking cleansing if we don't come clean about our sin, thus we cannot say we have no sin or that we never sinned.
John is not teaching that Christian's are always filthy.
The Bible teaches righteousness not perpetual sinfulness.
Jesus said "go and sin no more" not "sin some more and keep admitting it."
People like you obviously do not believe the Bible.
Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Keeping the commandments of Jesus is the opposite of sinning every day.
Heart purity is the opposite of perpetual sinfulness.
S
Christians are righteous because they have been saved, and the merits of Christ's sacrifice on their behalf have been applied to their account. They are saved by faith in Jesus Christ totally through grace, or God's unmerited favor.
Positionally they are righteous; practically they still sin. They receive a new nature that wants to please God, but they don't always succeed at that, and commit sin.
Rather than bury that sin in self denial, the Christian confesses them to God, and God is faithful to cleanse their unrighteousness. This is what I John 1:8-9 talks about.
Sinless perfection people spread a false gospel that after salvation, Christians do not sin at all. This is not true. Their lives aren't characterized overall by sin, but they still commit sins. If any Christian claims to never commit sin after being saved, they are deluding themselves, as I John 1:8-9 clearly states.
Positionally they are righteous; practically they still sin. They receive a new nature that wants to please God, but they don't always succeed at that, and commit sin.
Rather than bury that sin in self denial, the Christian confesses them to God, and God is faithful to cleanse their unrighteousness. This is what I John 1:8-9 talks about.
Sinless perfection people spread a false gospel that after salvation, Christians do not sin at all. This is not true. Their lives aren't characterized overall by sin, but they still commit sins. If any Christian claims to never commit sin after being saved, they are deluding themselves, as I John 1:8-9 clearly states.
S
In other words, you teach that salvation is maintained by good works. If that's true, you might as well give up because you do sin. I John 1:8-9 clearly teaches that.
This view that salvation is maintained by good works is a slap in the face to God and his grace. It's basically telling us that Christ's sacrifice was good enough to save us from past sins at the point when we accept it in faith in Jesus Christ, but it's not sufficient to cover future sins we commit.
This view that salvation is maintained by good works is a slap in the face to God and his grace. It's basically telling us that Christ's sacrifice was good enough to save us from past sins at the point when we accept it in faith in Jesus Christ, but it's not sufficient to cover future sins we commit.
S
In regards to your accusation that I am quoting Scripture out of context, let me acquaint YOU with the larger context of Scripture.
Abraham lied after God accounted him as righteous. Jacob and Isaac did similar things. David committed the sin of adultery and murder. Peter denied Christ 3 times. Scripture speaks of assorted sins that were part of the various churches, including a man in Corinth who was having sex with his stepmother.
I am not at all saying that Christians should sin...I am saying that they DO sin, whether they like it or not. In fact, they don't like it, because they were given a new nature at conversion that doesn't want to sin. But they still have a residual of the old nature, the flesh, which also affects their actions. Through sanctification, the desires of God replace the desires of the flesh over time. However, they are never practically righteous in a way which "maintains" their salvation.
They are accounted righteous in God's sight by their faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. They are legally righteous before him due to the merits of Christ and his atoning work, and solely by that. Prideful man resists this concept, though...they don't want to be dependent on God at all. However, righteousness can be gained in God's sight in no other way. Works will not earn, merit or maintain salvation..else salvation is not of God, and I have something to boast about before God.
Abraham lied after God accounted him as righteous. Jacob and Isaac did similar things. David committed the sin of adultery and murder. Peter denied Christ 3 times. Scripture speaks of assorted sins that were part of the various churches, including a man in Corinth who was having sex with his stepmother.
I am not at all saying that Christians should sin...I am saying that they DO sin, whether they like it or not. In fact, they don't like it, because they were given a new nature at conversion that doesn't want to sin. But they still have a residual of the old nature, the flesh, which also affects their actions. Through sanctification, the desires of God replace the desires of the flesh over time. However, they are never practically righteous in a way which "maintains" their salvation.
They are accounted righteous in God's sight by their faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. They are legally righteous before him due to the merits of Christ and his atoning work, and solely by that. Prideful man resists this concept, though...they don't want to be dependent on God at all. However, righteousness can be gained in God's sight in no other way. Works will not earn, merit or maintain salvation..else salvation is not of God, and I have something to boast about before God.