OSAS supporters, explain these, if you will please.

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sparkman

Guest
Please explain how walking in the Spirit is salvation by works?
Allow me to quote the comments by skinski:

Originally Posted by Skinski7
Eternal security is conditional on abiding in Christ (ie. walking after the Spirit).

One cannot engage in wickedness and be eternally secure. One cannot be sinning and abiding in Christ at the same time.


Reading his remarks, he is saying that a person cannot be sinning and abiding in Christ at the same time. This implies that there is no Christian who sins, correct? I am assuming he affirms that one's sins are cleansed by accepting Christ and his sacrifice in faith, and that these sins are cleansed at conversion..I don't know..maybe he doesn't even believe that.

My point is that if he believes, correctly, that salvation is a free gift of God, through faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, and that our past sins are forgiven at this time, but believes that we must maintain salvation by not sinning, then this is salvation by works..God's grace is no longer involved anymore. Christ's sacrifice was good enough to cleanse us of former sins, but not future ones..

This is indeed the position of "sinless perfection" people. They claim once a person is saved, they won't sin anymore at all. I know from practical experience this is not true..but Scripture also shows us, through portraying the foibles of its heroes such as David, that it is not true.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Are you talking about sin and the forgiveness of sin or salvation, your spinning a bit here...
I will ask you again, how is walking in the Spirit salvation by works?
Christians should walk in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is the result of salvation. I walk in the Spirit because I am saved, not because it merits or earns my salvation. Walking in the Spirit is subject to how intimate we are with God at the time, though. Christians do sin as I John 1:8-9 clearly teaches. When they sin, they confess their sins and God cleanses them.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Here's a great article on sinless perfectionism, which seems to underlay some thoughts in here. It is by RC Sproul.

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”

To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance




The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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[Abraham lied after God accounted him as righteous.]


so when did Abraham lie, was it about his sister ?

she was a half sister and his wife
 
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Eternal security is conditional on abiding in Christ (ie. walking after the Spirit).

One cannot engage in wickedness and be eternally secure. One cannot be sinning and abiding in Christ at the same time.
Please show us the scripture, copy - pate, wherein Jesus said exactly that. Eternal life, eternal salvation, is conditional because if someone sins after they've repented and accepted Christ as their savior, their eternal salvation is revoked.

Thank you in advance.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Originally Posted by Skinski7

Eternal security is conditional on abiding in Christ (ie. walking after the Spirit).

One cannot engage in wickedness and be eternally secure. One cannot be sinning and abiding in Christ at the same time.



As humans, and sinners, we sin everyday. Then we repent our sins and once again abide in Christ. When you are saved, that's it--you cant become unsaved again. Yes you may SIN over and over again but you do not get unsaved each time you sin. We "engage in wickedness" every day!! BUT we also know that we are saved, and nothing can undo that fact.
 
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The_highwayman

Guest
As humans, and sinners, we sin everyday. Then we repent our sins and once again abide in Christ. When you are saved, that's it--you cant become unsaved again. Yes you may SIN over and over again but you do not get unsaved each time you sin. We "engage in wickedness" every day!! BUT we also know that we are saved, and nothing can undo that fact.
You only sin every day because you choose to sin every day. Sin is a chose not an action
 
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sparkman

Guest
[Abraham lied after God accounted him as righteous.]


so when did Abraham lie, was it about his sister ?

she was a half sister and his wife
Yes, that is the incident that I mentioned. The intention was obviously to deceive.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Originally Posted by Skinski7

Eternal security is conditional on abiding in Christ (ie. walking after the Spirit).

One cannot engage in wickedness and be eternally secure. One cannot be sinning and abiding in Christ at the same time.



As humans, and sinners, we sin everyday. Then we repent our sins and once again abide in Christ. When you are saved, that's it--you cant become unsaved again. Yes you may SIN over and over again but you do not get unsaved each time you sin. We "engage in wickedness" every day!! BUT we also know that we are saved, and nothing can undo that fact.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 
Mar 28, 2014
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1 John 1:10

If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The scripture encourages us to sin not .....It does not encourage us to say we have not sinned.....

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ephesians 4:26
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
 
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Please show us the scripture, copy - pate, wherein Jesus said exactly that. Eternal life, eternal salvation, is conditional because if someone sins after they've repented and accepted Christ as their savior, their eternal salvation is revoked.

Thank you in advance.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
 
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There is no book and chapter to that series of verses that one may refer to.




[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

[SUP]15[/SUP]Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
 
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Have you tried Mel Gibson? Because it is obvious you don't believe the scripture
Please don't show your nature here. When you can not support your contention that Jesus lied about eternal life, don't make it a personal attack on me. John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one can snatch them out of my hand."
 
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It does not say for us to say we have not sinned
No kidding.

You appear to be out of sorts in your pursuit of your personal attack on me as it appears you're not able to read basic text in the scriptures I've posted.
I shall hold you in my prayers that you calm down and find peace.
 
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Please don't show your nature here. When you can not support your contention that Jesus lied about eternal life, don't make it a personal attack on me. John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one can snatch them out of my hand."
What nature ? what personal attack? If anything it is you who are attacking me and saying I support that Jesus lied about eternal life....You quote a piece of scripture, but you leave out the part that applies to us....[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: