Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread
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Not everything you believe in is the faith. The biblical faith is the real faith, in real things. Thats why we are commanded to test everything.
Just a simple fact that you believe in something and it makes you to feel good or spiritual does not make it right.
"And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues."
1Cor 12:28
Just a simple fact that you believe in something and it makes you to feel good or spiritual does not make it right.
"And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues."
1Cor 12:28
Just because it's quoted last doesn't make it the lesser gift.
Self-control is quoted last in the fruit list, are you saying it's the lesser fruit?
Scripture also uses a list that says faith, hope, and love. Are you also teaching love is the lesser of those that last? Because if so Scripture says it's the greatest.
You're confused on so many levels.
Self-control is quoted last in the fruit list, are you saying it's the lesser fruit?
Scripture also uses a list that says faith, hope, and love. Are you also teaching love is the lesser of those that last? Because if so Scripture says it's the greatest.
You're confused on so many levels.
Actually it's not, not by a long shot.
1) Testing the spirits doesn't mean what you think it does.
2) There is no Scripture that teaches a "false practice of tongues' you made that up.
3) You are assuming you know what grieving the Spirit is, without using Scripture, which seems to be your normal.
4) Walking in the Spirit of Truth is not accusing, create discord, or dissentions those are the works of the flesh and the devil.
Jesus is the same today, nowhere in Scripture does it says gifts aren't for today. You are completely against Scripture. And the Spirit of God. Do you know Him? Is He your Teacher?
But I'm done. I've written enough in this thread that the young believers will not be deceived by your blindness.
1) Testing the spirits doesn't mean what you think it does.
2) There is no Scripture that teaches a "false practice of tongues' you made that up.
3) You are assuming you know what grieving the Spirit is, without using Scripture, which seems to be your normal.
4) Walking in the Spirit of Truth is not accusing, create discord, or dissentions those are the works of the flesh and the devil.
Jesus is the same today, nowhere in Scripture does it says gifts aren't for today. You are completely against Scripture. And the Spirit of God. Do you know Him? Is He your Teacher?
But I'm done. I've written enough in this thread that the young believers will not be deceived by your blindness.
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Its really interesting how hysterical and personal case you can make of somebody saying that millions are faking the gift of tongues, even though we both know its a common practice.
If you will continue your way, till the end of the day I will be probably the worst heretic the world ever seen, in your words.
If you will continue your way, till the end of the day I will be probably the worst heretic the world ever seen, in your words.
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Blasphemy of the Spirit is always and ONLY one of two things.
1) Giving Satan credit for the work of the Spirit.
2) Blaming the Spirit for the works of Satan.
Any honest question about whether an event or a phenomenon is truly of God is not Blasphemy of any sort.
We are told to test the spirits and we are not born expert at the task. As we seek to obey God gives us more and more discernment.
1) Giving Satan credit for the work of the Spirit.
2) Blaming the Spirit for the works of Satan.
Any honest question about whether an event or a phenomenon is truly of God is not Blasphemy of any sort.
We are told to test the spirits and we are not born expert at the task. As we seek to obey God gives us more and more discernment.
It is a big world, our western church apparently has experienced ebbs and flows in our experience of His gifts.
That isn't to say somewhere in the world Jesus isn't knocking on the door of hearts and they are responding positively
and receiving the gifts He died on the cross to bring us, that we might live the life of faith He modeled for us.
My Bible tells me He is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
That isn't to say somewhere in the world Jesus isn't knocking on the door of hearts and they are responding positively
and receiving the gifts He died on the cross to bring us, that we might live the life of faith He modeled for us.
My Bible tells me He is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
As Trofimus wrote, your reply is classic circular reasoning. If this is your answer then you have no answer.
Using this line of reasoning a church could proclaim that their communion wine is really human blood and their bread is really human flesh. No need to test the claim, it's in the Bible isn't it?
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1st John 4:1
Hearsay is not evidence, it is an appeal by those without evidence.
Using this line of reasoning a church could proclaim that their communion wine is really human blood and their bread is really human flesh. No need to test the claim, it's in the Bible isn't it?
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1st John 4:1
Hearsay is not evidence, it is an appeal by those without evidence.
Chrysostomus:
"Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
"And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya..."
Acts 2, ESV
"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers."
1 Cor 14:22
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How is a private, "spiritual" language without a real world meaning a sign for unbelievers?
"Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
"And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya..."
Acts 2, ESV
"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers."
1 Cor 14:22
---
How is a private, "spiritual" language without a real world meaning a sign for unbelievers?
1 John 4:1-6 says to not believe every spirit but test them; and saved believers have experienced what they believe was the Holy Spirit coming over them apart from salvation, bringing tongues which is why it never comes with interpretation as that kind of tongue can be found in the world before Pentecost and since God is not the copycat, that tongue is not of Him. 1 John 4:5-6 is a testimony by John that there is a supernatural tongue in the world that the world speak in as from the spirit of error.
1 John 4:[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
The real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ) and tongues are not used as a sign to already saved believers that they had received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. [SUP]21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Isaiah 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [SUP]2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Kind of hypocritical when you are not normally using scriptural reference either.
Those who use tongues privately usually share the experience of receiving what they believe was the Holy Spirit separate from salvation in bringing that tongue which leads others to preach seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation with the sign of tongues OR preach another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, thus going against scripture when using tongues as a sign to already saved believers when they had received what they believe was the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. Tsk tsk tsk
They sow discord by separating themselves from the body of believers that had only one drink of the One Spirit that we were all baptized by at our salvation.
1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Since vain & profane babbling nonsense has been linked with the occult and exposed as being of the apostasy, is it any wonder why believers are asking you to prove everything by Jesus Christ, including the tongue that you have?
1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Well.. maybe I should private message this reply to you then.
1 John 4:[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
The real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ) and tongues are not used as a sign to already saved believers that they had received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. [SUP]21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Isaiah 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [SUP]2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Kind of hypocritical when you are not normally using scriptural reference either.
Those who use tongues privately usually share the experience of receiving what they believe was the Holy Spirit separate from salvation in bringing that tongue which leads others to preach seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation with the sign of tongues OR preach another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, thus going against scripture when using tongues as a sign to already saved believers when they had received what they believe was the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. Tsk tsk tsk
They sow discord by separating themselves from the body of believers that had only one drink of the One Spirit that we were all baptized by at our salvation.
1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Since vain & profane babbling nonsense has been linked with the occult and exposed as being of the apostasy, is it any wonder why believers are asking you to prove everything by Jesus Christ, including the tongue that you have?
1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Well.. maybe I should private message this reply to you then.
A question. If the Holy Spirit's job is to convict the sin of those who do not believe in Him, then I believe the unpardonable sin was and is not believing in Jesus Christ.
John 16:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged
Mark 3:[SUP]22 [/SUP]And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? [SUP]24 [/SUP]And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. [SUP]27 [/SUP]No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
I can see why people take that reference to mean a direct insult towards the Holy Spirit, but I see it as a direct insult in not believing in Jesus Christ in spite of His work manifested through the Holy Spirit.
If the only sin that matters is the one that the Holy Spirit will convict of which is not believing in Him, then there is no other sin for the Holy Spirit to convict of.
A young girl had sinned against the Person of the Holy Spirit by saying something derogatory if I recall correctly. Then she became a Christian. She was worrying about this that she would never be forgiven and thus not saved.
I had said that by believing in Him, you are saved since it is by NEVER believing in Him is how one is never saved.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It is that sin of never believing in Him that the Holy Spirit will consider as unpardonable. Every other sin is; stupid and ignorant as those other sins are.
John 16:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged
Mark 3:[SUP]22 [/SUP]And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? [SUP]24 [/SUP]And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. [SUP]27 [/SUP]No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
I can see why people take that reference to mean a direct insult towards the Holy Spirit, but I see it as a direct insult in not believing in Jesus Christ in spite of His work manifested through the Holy Spirit.
If the only sin that matters is the one that the Holy Spirit will convict of which is not believing in Him, then there is no other sin for the Holy Spirit to convict of.
A young girl had sinned against the Person of the Holy Spirit by saying something derogatory if I recall correctly. Then she became a Christian. She was worrying about this that she would never be forgiven and thus not saved.
I had said that by believing in Him, you are saved since it is by NEVER believing in Him is how one is never saved.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It is that sin of never believing in Him that the Holy Spirit will consider as unpardonable. Every other sin is; stupid and ignorant as those other sins are.
The real truth is stated by Peter in Acts 2:38. You must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus ( not Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Those are just titles and a form used by the Catholic Churches) and then you will and I emphasize the word will receive the Holy Ghost and if you read on you’ll find the promise to be to all.
Generally, yes.
But Christ used it in the context of pharisees saying that his power is from the evil one, even though they could not deny evidence for so many miracles.
I do not think that this can be reproduced today, specifically. We would have to witness God in flesh between us performing various kind of miracles and from the deep evil in our hearts we would have to attack him.
But Christ used it in the context of pharisees saying that his power is from the evil one, even though they could not deny evidence for so many miracles.
I do not think that this can be reproduced today, specifically. We would have to witness God in flesh between us performing various kind of miracles and from the deep evil in our hearts we would have to attack him.
To those who proclaim the continued existence of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit as was in the 1st century, I offer this analogy:
A young man and I are waiting at a bus stop, he proclaims that he can fly. He tells me of all the joy he and his friends have flying around the neighborhood and of all the benefits of flying among the clouds. He states boldly, "why walk when you can fly!" He offers to teach me how to fly. Skeptical I ask to see this flying first hand. He replies, "sure watch this". He begins to run in circles while quickly flapping his arms. After a few minutes he stops and proclaims, "see wasn't that great!". I reply that all I saw was him running and flapping his arms. He then pulls out a large textbook and proceeds to show me articles on flying. I point out that the chapter he is quoting is on the ability of sparrows to fly not humans. He closes the book gets on bus and yells, "You just don't want to fly!"
This is the Pentecostal/charismatic mindset.
A young man and I are waiting at a bus stop, he proclaims that he can fly. He tells me of all the joy he and his friends have flying around the neighborhood and of all the benefits of flying among the clouds. He states boldly, "why walk when you can fly!" He offers to teach me how to fly. Skeptical I ask to see this flying first hand. He replies, "sure watch this". He begins to run in circles while quickly flapping his arms. After a few minutes he stops and proclaims, "see wasn't that great!". I reply that all I saw was him running and flapping his arms. He then pulls out a large textbook and proceeds to show me articles on flying. I point out that the chapter he is quoting is on the ability of sparrows to fly not humans. He closes the book gets on bus and yells, "You just don't want to fly!"
This is the Pentecostal/charismatic mindset.