Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread
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Please be careful lumping (classical) Pentecostals in with the charismatic success, health, wealth groups. In 1980 the Assemblies of God church produced a position paper entitled "The Believer and Positive Confession," refuting the health and wealth folks. It can be found here:https://ag.org/Beliefs/Topics-Index/The-Believer-and-Positive-Confession
My experience with traditional or classic Pentecostals has lasted forty-five years so far, and I haven't found WOF being preached in the churches I've attended. Can't say this hasn't happened in the Pentecostal experience, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be tolerated for long, as far as the more traditional churches are concerned at least.
My experience with traditional or classic Pentecostals has lasted forty-five years so far, and I haven't found WOF being preached in the churches I've attended. Can't say this hasn't happened in the Pentecostal experience, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be tolerated for long, as far as the more traditional churches are concerned at least.
I don't see anything in scripture that suggests that anyone other than the Holy Spirit Himself should pray in unknown tongues.
I know that Ro 8:27 suggests that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in unknown tongues.
I have had 2 experiences that have shaped the way I think about tongues:
1) Many years ago my wife and I went with a friend to a Pentecostal church for an event they were having.
Things seemed to be done in biblical order with one speaking in an unknown tongue and another interpreting. Something about it didn't seem right so I recited Psalm 96 in Hebrew. The interpretation had no resemblance to Psalm 96.
2) In 1972 I was with a group of people from my church witnessing on the streets in the infamous North Beach district of San Francisco. At the time I had a rudimentary knowledge of French (self taught) and was beginning to learn ASL. We met a group of 5 deaf people 3 of whom were from France and 2 were American. I found myself signing in French and reverse interpreting
back to speech at conversational speed far beyond my ability in either French or ASL. I believe that was indeed the gift of tongues.
I led 2 deaf Frenchmen to Jesus.
I know that Ro 8:27 suggests that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in unknown tongues.
I have had 2 experiences that have shaped the way I think about tongues:
1) Many years ago my wife and I went with a friend to a Pentecostal church for an event they were having.
Things seemed to be done in biblical order with one speaking in an unknown tongue and another interpreting. Something about it didn't seem right so I recited Psalm 96 in Hebrew. The interpretation had no resemblance to Psalm 96.
2) In 1972 I was with a group of people from my church witnessing on the streets in the infamous North Beach district of San Francisco. At the time I had a rudimentary knowledge of French (self taught) and was beginning to learn ASL. We met a group of 5 deaf people 3 of whom were from France and 2 were American. I found myself signing in French and reverse interpreting
back to speech at conversational speed far beyond my ability in either French or ASL. I believe that was indeed the gift of tongues.
I led 2 deaf Frenchmen to Jesus.
You are right thank for bring some guidance to the discussion, here are some Scriptures to guise us further.
I Corinthians 12:27-31, 13:1-3, 13, 14:1-5 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way.13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.....13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
14:1Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up."
Notice Paul uses "tongue" and "tongues", most if not all of the "tongue" referrance seems to always be in refer to pray and "tongues" prophesy. This prophecy is not as in "thus saith the Lord", but it is as in a proclamation of God's message with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This prophecy is what I Corinthains 14:25-25 are talking about, "But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you."
This prophecy needs no interpetation, it builds up believers and call unbelievers into conviction. The "Thus saith the Lord" prophecy needs interpetation so it will build up the Church. Tongues interpreted to prophesy and prophesy build up. A tongue are "mysteries in the Spirit" and it builds up the speaker in the tongue, not the Church or does it bring an unbeliever to conviction, it does not disclose the unbelievers heart or bring them to worship God and testifiy that God is among that assembly.
I hope I got that all written down right, I think the idea is related. That a tongue is for pray and the building up of the speaker. Tongues needs to be interpreted to build up the Church, where prophesy is for building up the Church and calling unbelieves to repentance. Prophesy is a message inspired by the Lord for the reason mentioned.
I Corinthians 12:27-31, 13:1-3, 13, 14:1-5 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way.13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.....13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
14:1Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up."
Notice Paul uses "tongue" and "tongues", most if not all of the "tongue" referrance seems to always be in refer to pray and "tongues" prophesy. This prophecy is not as in "thus saith the Lord", but it is as in a proclamation of God's message with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This prophecy is what I Corinthains 14:25-25 are talking about, "But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you."
This prophecy needs no interpetation, it builds up believers and call unbelievers into conviction. The "Thus saith the Lord" prophecy needs interpetation so it will build up the Church. Tongues interpreted to prophesy and prophesy build up. A tongue are "mysteries in the Spirit" and it builds up the speaker in the tongue, not the Church or does it bring an unbeliever to conviction, it does not disclose the unbelievers heart or bring them to worship God and testifiy that God is among that assembly.
I hope I got that all written down right, I think the idea is related. That a tongue is for pray and the building up of the speaker. Tongues needs to be interpreted to build up the Church, where prophesy is for building up the Church and calling unbelieves to repentance. Prophesy is a message inspired by the Lord for the reason mentioned.
I think I would benefit to be a church that is Pentecostal / charismatic but not the one I visited a while back,in that church I saw people running around the room in a circle while the worship session played and as off as it was it was fine but then the people behind started to speak in (speak in tongues). I have been in the presence of a person actually speaking in tongues before and this was not it this was mainly random gibberish and the center of my body deep inside had this uneasy feeling when they spoke and I got out of there asap and didn't go back.
In Oklahoma there are tons of churches everywhere you look but few that I can walk to I don't need one that is super spiritual and over excited and fake I only want to try a Pentecostal church where the holy spirit is active and alive but also people don't over do it like that one I went to.
For a long time I have experienced so many things of the supernatural but no one in my area i can relate to or even talk to about it, I mean If I could be in a community who I can share and talk to and learn and grow in these things and that community shared the same fire and passion for God I do then I would not be satisfied with going to church only on Sunday
In Oklahoma there are tons of churches everywhere you look but few that I can walk to I don't need one that is super spiritual and over excited and fake I only want to try a Pentecostal church where the holy spirit is active and alive but also people don't over do it like that one I went to.
For a long time I have experienced so many things of the supernatural but no one in my area i can relate to or even talk to about it, I mean If I could be in a community who I can share and talk to and learn and grow in these things and that community shared the same fire and passion for God I do then I would not be satisfied with going to church only on Sunday
I am so glad and rejoice that in Australia we have the largest most Biblically based Pentecostal Church in our nation -
The Revival Fellowship (Australia)
We preach Acts 2:38 and read out the scriptures pertinent to being born new by water and the Spirit,
along with these signs shall follow them that believe.
All new converts repent and believe the original gospel, then get water baptized by immersion, and
all seek for the baptism (infilling) of the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence (sign) of speaking forth in a new
tongue (Mark 16:15-18) - and we all continue on daily with praying in the Holy Spirit.
Thus ALL are baptized of water and the Spirit - ALL speak in tongues - ALL have testimonies to being
converted and saved - ALL have testimonies to miracles, healings, divine provision and protection, and
much answered prayer.
Fortunately we are very scripturally based and uphold the Word of God without the emotionalism nor the
entertainment of praise & worship music that pervades much American charismatic and evangelical
churches.
We do not fall down, nor roll on the floor. Nor dance and other such hoo haa.
People simply get water baptized and when infilled by the HS they speak in tongues.
Then comes the daily challenge to deny the flesh and to be lead by the Spirit.
We read our Bibles; for it is one thing to preach how to be saved, but a Church must also preach
continually on how to stay saved. This is where the epistles guide and instruct us on righteousness and
the proper work of the Spirit in the Church.
Also at our formal worship meetings we operate the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined in
1Corinthians 14: diversities of tongues, interpretation, and prophesy.
All done decently and in order.
The Revival Fellowship (Australia)
We preach Acts 2:38 and read out the scriptures pertinent to being born new by water and the Spirit,
along with these signs shall follow them that believe.
All new converts repent and believe the original gospel, then get water baptized by immersion, and
all seek for the baptism (infilling) of the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence (sign) of speaking forth in a new
tongue (Mark 16:15-18) - and we all continue on daily with praying in the Holy Spirit.
Thus ALL are baptized of water and the Spirit - ALL speak in tongues - ALL have testimonies to being
converted and saved - ALL have testimonies to miracles, healings, divine provision and protection, and
much answered prayer.
Fortunately we are very scripturally based and uphold the Word of God without the emotionalism nor the
entertainment of praise & worship music that pervades much American charismatic and evangelical
churches.
We do not fall down, nor roll on the floor. Nor dance and other such hoo haa.
People simply get water baptized and when infilled by the HS they speak in tongues.
Then comes the daily challenge to deny the flesh and to be lead by the Spirit.
We read our Bibles; for it is one thing to preach how to be saved, but a Church must also preach
continually on how to stay saved. This is where the epistles guide and instruct us on righteousness and
the proper work of the Spirit in the Church.
Also at our formal worship meetings we operate the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined in
1Corinthians 14: diversities of tongues, interpretation, and prophesy.
All done decently and in order.
Just this evening a young woman came to talk with me about some things happening in her life. I listened but in my own mind, had no idea what to say to her until I prayed in my prayer language. Then out of the anointing, I spoke what came from the Lord. The baptism of Holy Spirit is the power of God to minister to others. It's not just for those who have a position in a church.
So tonight it was my prayer language and prophecy used to minister to this to this young woman, and she left better than when she came, not because I had anything to give her of my self, but was just that vessel that God used.
Why would anyone not want this? The Lord IMO, would desire all to move in His power.
So tonight it was my prayer language and prophecy used to minister to this to this young woman, and she left better than when she came, not because I had anything to give her of my self, but was just that vessel that God used.
Why would anyone not want this? The Lord IMO, would desire all to move in His power.
I know a little something about that, Blain. You have experienced evil spirits and spiritual darkness around you. It can scare you to death if you don't remember that greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
Currently my wife and I are looking for a church to go to because our church has gone liberal and searching for excitement.
It's getting near impossible to find a good church anywhere. Right now I'd be happy in a house church with a handful of people where God has full reign and His Spirit has liberty to minister to us and we the same to the Lord. I hope we both find what we're looking for.
Currently my wife and I are looking for a church to go to because our church has gone liberal and searching for excitement.
It's getting near impossible to find a good church anywhere. Right now I'd be happy in a house church with a handful of people where God has full reign and His Spirit has liberty to minister to us and we the same to the Lord. I hope we both find what we're looking for.
For a sensible Bible obedient no hoo-haa Pentecostal church try The Revival Fellowship USA
THE REVIVAL FELLOWSHIP, FRESNO | The truth with Proof
THE REVIVAL FELLOWSHIP, FRESNO | The truth with Proof