Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

[garee]

Knowledge is still with us today. Even though we look through a glass darkly and have limited
understanding of the magnitude of the spiritual realm and the third heaven.
Also a continuing gift in our Pentecostal fellowship
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Corinthians 12:8

Third heaven is that a place of secret or private knowledge?

The knowledge it is speaking of comes from the interpretation of God scripture.(prophecy) It is not just any knowledge .

Because there are no more new revelations as God’s interpretation to us. The idea of any new knowledge vanishes.

Do we need to go above that which is written? Are there laws missing by which we could know Christ more adequately?


Just as because there is no more new revelations ( tongues) which is understandable prophecy to those who understand by believing God and a sign of rebellion to those who do not understand because they have another teaching authority making the scripture to no effect all new prophecy has ceased..

The question I would ask is . Are you receiving new revelations as private revelations/interpretations like that of the Catholics.For instance like the Law of the Catholic fathers, as commandments of men below??

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)

 

[mj007]

Jesus loved helping people. Many people often I observe see God and Jesus as a personal thing to help themselves. It becomes a stuck in a comfortable padded box, rather than outside the box. Selfishness is one of the most prolific human conditions that exist. Self-preservation, self-righteous, self-identity, self-belief. Much to do with the self, flesh, is a wall between you and other people. The human condition does so out of self-protection when such things occur to try and cope with. Maybe the perfect strategy is to be more open and loving? Rarely when people get hurt do they stop and think that. And without this deep thought, walls are the reactive conclusion to preserve self. Caveman instinct is in all of us, but I think God wants us to be more than that. To be a blessing in the world, to bring people together, unite people. It's all about love. But whenever I mention love it is the most ignored thing to talk about! Love? You mean I have to take down all my walls to believe in something called love, when love was what caused my walls? No, self-constructed views of love caused the walls. God is Love, and he doesn't live in a box. He loves everyone the same. But that's the biggest no no to most people.

I thought their main goal was to preach and point all to CHRIST?

i would never identify an evangelical (a charismatic teacher of THE GOSPEL) to this type of activity at all...I wouldn't even call them anything but liars

one of the reasons we are given HIS SPIRIT is to discern the truth (and those who walk in and are led by TRUTH) from lies
so, though one may label themselves outwardly as an evangelical or a charismatic, if what they do not represent the truth of that office than all they are is a borrower of a name and a misrepresentation of what that name should truly reflect

 

[Dude653]

I like how the Pentecostals have Lively worship but I don't agree with their Doctrine. Women not being allowed to wear pants is absolutely absurd seeing as how there are pants that are specifically designed for women. You won't see a man wearing capris unless he's gay

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Gifts of the Spirit are NOT for every born again believer...nor will a born again believer receive all the gifts. This subject is so debatable among Christians because many do not understand the gifts...but that's okay. It's hard to know something is real when you don't understand it or haven't experienced it. You may have the gift of the spirit of faith and not realize it...

why do you say the above?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I like how the Pentecostals have Lively worship but I don't agree with their Doctrine. Women not being allowed to wear pants is absolutely absurd seeing as how there are pants that are specifically designed for women. You won't see a man wearing capris unless he's gay

well that's false

only certain Pentecostals follow that rule. most could not care less

I'm not Pentecostal but I have certainly been to Pentecostal churches and had Pentecostal friends

the ones who will not allow pants or slacks I believe are called 'holiness' Pens...the women are also not supposed to cut their hair and have that bun thing going on

I would not raise a monument to the above, regarding the ones who follow strick dress codes, but as far as 'regular' pens go, no problem with how they dress

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Third heaven is that a place of secret or private knowledge?

The knowledge it is speaking of comes from the interpretation of God scripture.(prophecy) It is not just any knowledge .

Because there are no more new revelations as God’s interpretation to us. The idea of any new knowledge vanishes.

Do we need to go above that which is written? Are there laws missing by which we could know Christ more adequately?


Just as because there is no more new revelations ( tongues) which is understandable prophecy to those who understand by believing God and a sign of rebellion to those who do not understand because they have another teaching authority making the scripture to no effect all new prophecy has ceased..

The question I would ask is . Are you receiving new revelations as private revelations/interpretations like that of the Catholics.For instance like the Law of the Catholic fathers, as commandments of men below??

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)

well, here's a revelation

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. II Cor. 12:21

 

[Dude653]

I'm distancing myself from the charismatic movement because it seems like it's mostly emotional rhetoric with no real substance. I've even seen it in my own church. Sometimes we have had guest speakers and I'm sitting in my seat thinking " you've been up there yelling for the past 45 minutes but you haven't actually said anything yet"
I don't mean any disrespect to my pastor but sometimes I wonder why he lets some of them get up there and preach

 

[trofimus]

I'm distancing myself from the charismatic movement because it seems like it's mostly emotional rhetoric with no real substance. I've even seen it in my own church. Sometimes we have had guest speakers and I'm sitting in my seat thinking " you've been up there yelling for the past 45 minutes but you haven't actually said anything yet"
I don't mean any disrespect to my pastor but sometimes I wonder why he lets some of them get up there and preach

I have also much experience with very hysterical and loud charismatics.

And they will tell you they are filled with the Holy Spirit, when we know that the Holy Spirit produces self-control, order and quietness...

 

[hornetguy]

well, here's a revelation

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. II Cor. 12:21

I'm sorry... I suppose I missed it... what is the revelation in this scripture?

 

[Dude653]

I have also much experience with very hysterical and loud charismatics.

And they will tell you they are filled with the Holy Spirit, when we know that the Holy Spirit produces self-control, order and quietness...

I don't have any problem with a preacher getting excited about God and being animated but he needs to actually be talking about something too

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I'm sorry... I suppose I missed it... what is the revelation in this scripture?

the fellow I quoted said this:

Third heaven is that a place of secret or private knowledge?

and

there are no more new revelations

I showed where there is a reference to a third heaven and scripture and christened it a new revelation for him

bit of a joke that seems to have gone over like a lead balloon...

 

[wolfwint]

No you misunderstand. I don't think that either. When i say tongues i mean praying in tongues. This is seperate from the gift of tongues which is a message from God needing interpretation.

Where ia a scripture proof for that? I dont know any scripture who proof that. And no letter where it is taught from Paul ore any other writer of the epistles.

 

[FlSnookman7]

Aren't Pentacosts the ones who pick up rattlesnakes??? LOL just a bit of humor, though some churches do indeed still practice that. My church calls itself non-denominational with pentacost leanings whatever that means...me, i'm just a Jesus freak.

 

[hornetguy]

the fellow I quoted said this:



and



I showed where there is a reference to a third heaven and scripture and christened it a new revelation for him

bit of a joke that seems to have gone over like a lead balloon...

ahhh... ok. Got it. Sometimes I'm slow on the uptake.

Getting old has nothing to do with it, I'm sure.....

 

[Depleted]

Depends on what gifts. Healing, tounges, prophecy, (not preaching) and word of knowledge have meet the purpose they were intended for and have ceased.

As for the rest of the gifts, which some are fruits, can be seen in believers, if God is using them that way.

Awwww, come on now! You agreed with me a couple of days ago that healing hasn't ceased! I've been healed THREE times. (Hubby reminded me of the third time two nights ago. Completely forgot about it, because I was healed even before the allergy kicked in.) Hubby was healed once, but it was a huge miracle. And, God used him and me to lay hands on people and they were healed. Honest! Two days ago, we agreed miracles still happen!

 

[Depleted]

Ok, please present concrete examples of AG pastors preaching the WOF message.

Well, considering he's Czech, I really doubt he has the full scoop on an American Church, but I do find it humorous that you have now cut it down to just one denomination, when he didn't mention denominations at all. That was not a smooth move!

 

[Depleted]

I think I would benefit to be a church that is Pentecostal / charismatic but not the one I visited a while back,in that church I saw people running around the room in a circle while the worship session played and as off as it was it was fine but then the people behind started to speak in (speak in tongues). I have been in the presence of a person actually speaking in tongues before and this was not it this was mainly random gibberish and the center of my body deep inside had this uneasy feeling when they spoke and I got out of there asap and didn't go back.

In Oklahoma there are tons of churches everywhere you look but few that I can walk to I don't need one that is super spiritual and over excited and fake I only want to try a Pentecostal church where the holy spirit is active and alive but also people don't over do it like that one I went to.

For a long time I have experienced so many things of the supernatural but no one in my area i can relate to or even talk to about it, I mean If I could be in a community who I can share and talk to and learn and grow in these things and that community shared the same fire and passion for God I do then I would not be satisfied with going to church only on Sunday

Well, PCA, OP, and RP (all Presbyterian, except don't stick us with the PC-USA. They're the not-likely-Christian Presbys. lol) are decidedly not excitable in church, BUT they/we all stick with preaching the whole of the Bible, instead of vague-topic-of-the-week. We really are like many churches -- the invisible is within the visible -- however we are decidedly not Pentacostal or Charismatic. (BTW, Charismatic, by default of the word, means very demonstrative. They're the ones moving around a lot.)

Just want you to know you don't have to be Pentecostal or Charismatic just because you're a Christian. There are other options.

 

[trofimus]

Awwww, come on now! You agreed with me a couple of days ago that healing hasn't ceased! I've been healed THREE times. (Hubby reminded me of the third time two nights ago. Completely forgot about it, because I was healed even before the allergy kicked in.) Hubby was healed once, but it was a huge miracle. And, God used him and me to lay hands on people and they were healed. Honest! Two days ago, we agreed miracles still happen!

Good to hear your testimony. But is healing here or there the same thing as gift of healing?

 

[Miri]

I like how the Pentecostals have Lively worship but I don't agree with their Doctrine. Women not being allowed to wear pants is absolutely absurd seeing as how there are pants that are specifically designed for women. You won't see a man wearing capris unless he's gay

????????

Where did you get that idea from. I wear pants (well actually trousers in the
UK) and go to a Pentecostal church.


General comment.

I feel quite sorry for people who might have visited the odd bad church or relied
too much on God TV to gather their experiences of different denominations, so much
so that it has clouded their judgement. By the way very few programmes on God TV
are worth watching in my opinion.

I just wish you could all visit my church, it's as biblically functioning as it's possible
to get without being transported back in time. Lol

By the way while I go to a Pentecostal church I don't believe in denominations,
thats a man made division.

I just go to a bible believing functioning church which just happens to be the nearest
easiest one to get to and it's Pentecostal.

I would just as easily attend a baptist, Church of England, evangelical, Methodist
and I have! In fact all the bible believing churches of various denominations all work
together in my city.

So I find it hard to understand this "I would go to this denomination, not that one",
"I am a ..... because I was raised in that denomination", "we don't mix with that denomination",
etc.

The churches in my city have achieved so much together over the last 20 years by coming
together, food banks, kids club, street angels, teen challenge, prison visits, visiting families on
the poorest estate - I think they visit around a 1000 families a month. The churches have also
been allowed to run after school clubs and take school assemblies with the permission of the
schools and education authority. All this at a time when schools are more concerned about
being politically correct. That is a miracle.

Social services even refer people to my church for counselling. It's incredible what can be
achieved when bible believing churches stop arguing, comparing and nit picking.

Several new churches have also sprung up over the last 10 years or so. I don't mean ones
where the existing congregations just move to a new church. I mean where new congregations
and new saved people flock to the new churches!

Even the previously dead churches which use to advertise jumble sales and car boot sales
on their notice boards, have now sprung to life. Their notice boards are full
of dates and times of evangelistic meetings, bible verses and invitations to come and buy
without money!

If people want revival it has to start with the churches. People have to stop nit picking
and pointing the finger and critising churches they have never even been to.

Even Jesus said those who are for you are not against you.

Luke 9:49-50 AMPC
[49] John said, Master, we saw a man driving out demons in Your name
and we commanded him to stop it, for he does not follow along with us.
[50] But Jesus told him, Do not forbid such people; for whoever is not
against you is for you.

 

[Depleted]

Well since this is a light debate thread I suggest you look up some of the other threads where this issue has been heavily debated.

Suffice it to say that you are proof texting without proper context. You are using the long ending of Mark which is no fully accepted to have manuscript authority.

Three gifts ended with the completion of the NT scriptures. Tongues have always been a sign from God of impending judgment. Knowledge has ended in that the knowledge that allowed fishermen to contend with Pharisees has vanished away.

Let Gal 5:22-26 be the standard by which these things are measured.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Considering I know mailmen, stay-at-home moms, and mechanics who can contend with the learned because of the knowledge God gave them, don't mind me for not believing you.