POLL: The Deity of Christ
- Thread starter p_rehbein
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I've posted this before, but it obviously needs to be posted again. It is the analysis of the Greek of John 1:1.
John 1:1 – Why Jesus is God, and a different person than the Father.
In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.
Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.
A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.
Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word
We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it has the definite article and is in the nominative case and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”
Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?
The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).
That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.
John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism
To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:
1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy
Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar
*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.
+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism
John 1:1 – Why Jesus is God, and a different person than the Father.
In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.
Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.
A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.
Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word
We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it has the definite article and is in the nominative case and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”
Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?
The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).
That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.
John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism
To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:
1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy
Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar
*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.
+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism
No, the Word who is God (Jn 1:13) is not the Spirit.
The Word who is God is Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The Spirit is the Holy Spirit of the Father and of the Son,
just as the Son is the Son of God the Father.
The Holy Spirit is not an "it," the Holy Spirit is a "he, his, him" (Jn 16:7-9).
The Holy Spirit is a person, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeding from (coming out from within) the Father and the Son (Jn 15:26; Gal 4:6).
The Word did not "move" in the womb of Mary.
The Word who is God became flesh in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit.
The Word who is God is Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The Spirit is the Holy Spirit of the Father and of the Son,
just as the Son is the Son of God the Father.
The Holy Spirit is not an "it," the Holy Spirit is a "he, his, him" (Jn 16:7-9).
The Holy Spirit is a person, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeding from (coming out from within) the Father and the Son (Jn 15:26; Gal 4:6).
The Word did not "move" in the womb of Mary.
The Word who is God became flesh in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit.
D
Here shows the three if that would be helpful
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord;
and whence is he then his son?
And the common people heard him gladly.
So it shows David speaking by the Holy Ghost saying the same of the Son of God (my Lord)
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord,
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord;
and whence is he then his son?
And the common people heard him gladly.
So it shows David speaking by the Holy Ghost saying the same of the Son of God (my Lord)
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord,
Yes love, I do agree in these three. And the verses you posted are excellent for this topic.
My point is less about their existence, and more about their relationship.
If the Catholic Bible was correct, then the three would be in One,
but we know that the verse is an addition to the text in 1st John.
My point is less about their existence, and more about their relationship.
If the Catholic Bible was correct, then the three would be in One,
but we know that the verse is an addition to the text in 1st John.
D
Well, I dont have a catholic bible, so I cant tell too much, although all that canon type stuff and manuscript stuff is something I typically hate touching, although there are exceptions
I let these guys go there because I just find that technical stuff so boring and thats just not my strong point or my cup of tea
So I will leave you to it.
God bless you
I let these guys go there because I just find that technical stuff so boring and thats just not my strong point or my cup of tea
So I will leave you to it.
God bless you
D
Its not your fault, it just happens on certain topics, its sort of a given sometimes, then goes into strifes of words and all the rest of it and some folks reallly dig that kind of thing, so you'll have company LOL
I just wanted you to know I (personally) need to leave off of it right at that point.
God bless you
I just wanted you to know I (personally) need to leave off of it right at that point.
God bless you
You left out one other option, the word God (G2316) can be translated God's (G2316) Just as Christ is God's as shown below...
[TABLE="class: bibleTable"]
[TR]
[TD]Jhn 1:1 [/TD]
[TD]¶In [SUP]G1722[/SUP] the beginning [SUP]G746[/SUP] was [SUP]G2258[/SUP] the Word, [SUP]G3056[/SUP] and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] the Word [SUP]G3056[/SUP] was [SUP]G2258[/SUP] with [SUP]G4314[/SUP] God, [SUP]G2316[/SUP] and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] the Word [SUP]G3056[/SUP] was [SUP]G2258[/SUP] God. [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]1Co 3:23[/TD]
[TD]And [SUP]G1161[/SUP] ye [SUP]G5210[/SUP] are Christ's; [SUP]G5547[/SUP] and [SUP]G1161[/SUP] Christ [SUP]G5547[/SUP] is God's. [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: bibleTable"]
[TR]
[TD]Jhn 1:1 [/TD]
[TD]¶In [SUP]G1722[/SUP] the beginning [SUP]G746[/SUP] was [SUP]G2258[/SUP] the Word, [SUP]G3056[/SUP] and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] the Word [SUP]G3056[/SUP] was [SUP]G2258[/SUP] with [SUP]G4314[/SUP] God, [SUP]G2316[/SUP] and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] the Word [SUP]G3056[/SUP] was [SUP]G2258[/SUP] God. [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]1Co 3:23[/TD]
[TD]And [SUP]G1161[/SUP] ye [SUP]G5210[/SUP] are Christ's; [SUP]G5547[/SUP] and [SUP]G1161[/SUP] Christ [SUP]G5547[/SUP] is God's. [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]