PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[wsblind]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The muddled thinking is absolutely and utterly amazing. Let me state the question in such simple terms even my little daughter could understand:

Do you believe (as PreTrib does) that the "gathering" in Matthew 24 occurs at the end of the 1260 days?

If so, you have failed (as PreTrib does) to uphold the scriptures a mere two verses later, which stipulates "no one will know the day or hour" OF this "gathering"...but which PreTrib insists CAN be pinned down to the very day.

You are incorrigible. It is NOT,NOT,NOT the rapture of the Church.

 

[willybob]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
​

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Cyprian
Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
​

Again we see use of language commonly found in reference to the Rapture as Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.
In line with the Apostle Paul who wrote that “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation..” Cyprian expressed joy and encourages the believing reader to rejoice that the Church will be “taken away” before the disastrous Great Tribulation. Just as The Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 used the same language of one “taken away” and the other “left.” Additionally Cyprian references the mansions which The Lord Jesus Christ promises to come back and take His believers to in John 14.

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” – John 14:1-3.
​

As Beginning and End detailed in our article “The Red Moon Rapture – The Biblical Timing of The Rapture”, in both the Matthew 24 passages (“one taken, the other left”) and in John 14 (“..receive you unto myself..”) the Greek work paralambanō is used for taken and receive. The meaning of that word is “join to one’s self” indicating that Jesus is coming to fully unify with His church – which takes place at the Rapture. Clearly Cyprian believed and taught that the Rapture takes place before the Great Tribulation.
Ephraim The Syrian
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:
In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”
​

With a sense of urgency and strong warning, Ephraim writes that the end times are upon this world and could start at any moment. This text very clearly states the saints and elect of God, all born again believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, will be “taken to the Lord” before the Great Tribulation. Ephraim also identifies the Old Testament “Day of The Lord” and the end times Great tribulation as the same event (in line with the teachings of the Beginning and End Rapture Series). Ephraim quotes Amos 5:18 which says: “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”
The point he makes is that a Christian should know the Day of The Lord is coming. In the first part of the passage Ephraim notes that:
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated)” And not only that but that true Christians will be taken away before it starts.
Here he is describing the first 3 of the first 4 seals of Revelation 6 – wars, famines and plagues. These are the same end times signs Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 24:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. – Matthew 24:3-8.
​

Jesus describes these events as “the beginning of sorrows.” He also says that when these things come to pass “the end is not yet.” Ephraim’s writing agrees with this interpretation as he says those same events have been “fulfilled (consummated)” in his day, but it was still not the actual Great Tribulation. This also falls in line with Beginning and End’s Rapture series as explained in our article Who Are The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse? (The first four seals of Revelation 6 were opened at the time Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven. And the rapture itself does not occur until the opening of the 6th Seal.)
Ephraim in very strong language warns the reader not to be consumed with the cares of the world because the world in its current form, is coming to an end. As the Second Advent or Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ grows near, believers are to look to Heaven and set their hearts on pleasing God. It is clear that Ephraim distinguishes the Second Coming of Christ from the rapture, placing the Rapture before the Great Tribulation to come.
The Early Church Believed In The Rapture

Go back to the apostles teachings...Cyprianand Erroneous were heavily into Greek Platonism...Jesus prayed to the Father in the garden that the Father take them not out of the world, but rather sanctify them in the truth....

 

[willybob]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The prayers of Jesus was that the Father NOT TAKE them out of the world....

John 17....
:14 I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because
they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that you should take them out of the world, but that you
should keep them from the evil.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Do you believe (as PreTrib does) that the "gathering" in Matthew 24 occurs at the end of the 1260 days?

Yes, the gathering by the angels mentioned in Matt.24:31 will take place 1260 days after the abomination is set up. The on-going error is that, the gathering mention above is not the gathering of the church. Those people that the angels will be gathering will be those still in their mortal bodies who will have made it through the time of God's wrath. To be clear, Matt.24:31 is not representing the gathering of the church. For the gathering of believers will have taken place seven years prior to that.

Matt.24:31 is not the same event of 1 Thes.4:13-18.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: The dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air, where the entire church will be taken back to the Father's house. This event takes place prior to the 1st seal being opened, which begins God's wrath.

Matthew 24:31: This event takes place after God's wrath, when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. The angles go throughout the earth and first gather all of the wicked. After that, which is what Matt.24:31 is referring to, the angels will gather those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the tribulation period alive.

At the event of 1 Thes.4:13-18, all believers who are gathered are receiving their immortal and glorified bodies. Those who are gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31, are people who will still be in their mortal bodies, who will have made it through the end of that time of wrath. They will go into the millennial period in those mortal bodies and along with those who survive of Israel, will repopulate the earth.

The gathering of the church is a completely different gathering from Matt.24:31

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I always chuckle at anti pretrib rhetoric.

I was just telling my wife,why di they adhere to a doctrine that REQUIRES personal attacks??

Red flags galore.

 

[willybob]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Matthew 24 was a prophecy to the Jews, it happened some 2000 years ago, their world was completely destroyed never to be again....All the birth records in the Temple were also destroyed ...And no, I'm not a Preterest.....dig deep the deceptions of men are great, its dark out there....The whole world lieth in wickedness.....

 

[wsblind]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Yes, the gathering by the angels mentioned in Matt.24:31 will take place 1260 days after the abomination is set up. The on-going error is that, the gathering mention above is not the gathering of the church. Those people that the angels will be gathering will be those still in their mortal bodies who will have made it through the time of God's wrath. To be clear, Matt.24:31 is not representing the gathering of the church. For the gathering of believers will have taken place seven years prior to that.

Matt.24:31 is not the same event of 1 Thes.4:13-18.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: The dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air, where the entire church will be taken back to the Father's house. This event takes place prior to the 1st seal being opened, which begins God's wrath.

Matthew 24:31: This event takes place after God's wrath, when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. The angles go throughout the earth and first gather all of the wicked. After that, which is what Matt.24:31 is referring to, the angels will gather those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the tribulation period alive.

At the event of 1 Thes.4:13-18, all believers who are gathered are receiving their immortal and glorified bodies. Those who are gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31, are people who will still be in their mortal bodies, who will have made it through the end of that time of wrath. They will go into the millennial period in those mortal bodies and along with those who survive of Israel, will repopulate the earth.

The gathering of the church is a completely different gathering from Matt.24:31

Thanks for your diligent and obviously indepth study brother.

What is your take on The Lord Jesus Christ's statement that those days(His second coming) will be cut short? So we don't even really know about the exact 1260 days?

I liken it to it is written, but if a saint pleads at that time God will relent. And I believe this is why Jesus said the days will be cut short. A Saint pleads and this is why Jesus says the days will be cut short.

 

[wsblind]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Go back to the apostles teachings...Cyprianand Erroneous were heavily into Greek Platonism...Jesus prayed to the Father in the garden that the Father take them not out of the world, but rather sanctify them in the truth....

Doesn't matter. The early church taught universalism also.

You said that pre trib didn't start until Darby. WRONG. It has been around since the get go.

Dig a little deeper, rather than just regurgitating what you have been told.

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

One of the innumerable blindspots of PreTrib Rapture doctrine is that it has no place to fit in Jesus' flat declaration...

"no one knows the day of the hour...but only the Father in heaven".

Since Jesus is quite clearly speaking to those who will find themselves INSIDE the events of the 70th Week...and more specifically, those who will find themselves inside the second half of the 70th Week...how is it possible these people would not know the "day or hour" when, in fact, the second half of the 70th Week lasts EXACTLY 1260 days?

Actually, I find your statements here to be interesting.

Why do you believe the entirety of Matthew 24 is "inside the events of the 70th Week". How is this clear? What words are used in Jesus' narrative to make you believe all the events of Matthew 24 and 25 are clearly chronological?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Thanks for your diligent and obviously indepth study brother.

What is your take on The Lord Jesus Christ's statement that those days(His second coming) will be cut short? So we don't even really know about the exact 1260 days?

I liken it to it is written, but if a saint pleads at that time God will relent. And I believe this is why Jesus said the days will be cut short. A Saint pleads and this is why Jesus says the days will be cut short.

Greetings wsblind,

My take on this is that, the reference to "those days being shortened" is not that God is going to cut short those last 3 1/2 years, but the meaning is that, if those specified 3 1/2 years were allowed to go on any further, not one would be left alive.

The time period of seven years has already been set, which is divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods. From the setting up of the abomination, which is in the middle of the seven years, initiates the last 3 1/2 years, which the Lord referred to as that time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. If that last 3 1/2 years was allowed to go on any longer than that, then no one would be left alive.

In other words, those days were cut short to 3 1/2 years and won't go on any longer than that.

Blessing to you in Christ!

 

[wsblind]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Greetings wsblind,

My take on this is that, the reference to "those days being shortened" is not that God is going to cut short those last 3 1/2 years, but the meaning is that, if those specified 3 1/2 years were allowed to go on any further, not one would be left alive.

The time period of seven years has already been set, which is divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods. From the setting up of the abomination, which is in the middle of the seven years, initiates the last 3 1/2 years, which the Lord referred to as that time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. If that last 3 1/2 years was allowed to go on any longer than that, then no one would be left alive.

In other words, those days were cut short to 3 1/2 years and won't go on any longer than that.

Blessing to you in Christ!

Thank you Brother. And I commend you on your diligent study of this subject. One would have to be blind to not see the time you have invested in this.

Way different then the quick attack the man rather than the message replies.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Thank you Brother. And I commend you on your diligent study of this subject. One would have to be blind to not see the time you have invested in this.

Way different then the quick attack the man rather than the message replies.

Thank you brother and the Lord bless you in the knowledge of his word.

 

[Bladerunner]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Jesus supported a post Trib rapture in Matthew 24: 29-31 thats good enough for me. Apart from that if the post Trib position is so difficult to support using scripture how come most of the Church supports it and has done for almost 2000 years. It was only until around 1830 that most people had even considered a Pre Trib Rapture when John Darby and later Cyrus Schofield spread the idea. Even today the most support it gets is in the US.

Tanakh my friend,,,you are way off the mark on this one... Especially Matthew 24 or the Olivet Discourse.

It take a s little further digging. Paying attention to all three Matthew , Mark and Luke account of what Jesus Said to them. Also, you need to take their background into account to determine from what view-point they are telling the story Jesus told them. (i.e. Matthew was Jewish, a tax collector thus a scribe. His detailed writings are far more complete than the other two but they bring in a different light on the subject (so-to -speak)

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Actually, I find your statements here to be interesting.

Why do you believe the entirety of Matthew 24 is "inside the events of the 70th Week". How is this clear? What words are used in Jesus' narrative to make you believe all the events of Matthew 24 and 25 are clearly chronological?

No, you're right. There are some foretold events described in Matthew 24 that are probably outside of the 70th Week -- maybe some of the "famine, pestilence, earthquake" stuff. I guess am focusing of the abomination of desolation and forward. In other words, the second half of the 70th Week. Wait a minute -- are you another Pret trying to sneak in the side door, or something? Maybe when Jesus referred to "pestilence", that's what He was......oh, nevermind.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I always chuckle at anti pretrib rhetoric.

I was just telling my wife,why di they adhere to a doctrine that REQUIRES personal attacks??

Red flags galore.

Are you a PreTribber? Feel free to jump in. I thought you were a Pret trying to stomp on this thread.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Yes, the gathering by the angels mentioned in Matt.24:31 will take place 1260 days after the abomination is set up. The on-going error is that, the gathering mention above is not the gathering of the church. Those people that the angels will be gathering will be those still in their mortal bodies who will have made it through the time of God's wrath. To be clear, Matt.24:31 is not representing the gathering of the church. For the gathering of believers will have taken place seven years prior to that.

Wow -- you just can't get it through your head what the issue is here. It's absolutely amazing. I don't CARE at this specific stage of the discussion...what kind of gathering this is. How do fail to understand such a simple point, over and over and over? (LOL, weep, sob, LOL)

But hey...at least you've finally acknowledged PreTrib's error in contradicting the "no one knows the day or hour" scripture. So now what? Are you finally going to switch over to PreWrath?

The Bible says this "gathering" occurs at a time no one knows. PreTrib (and you) erroneously and contradictorily claim this gathering can be timed...to the very day. Game over for PreTrib. Maybe take up pottery or something?

What is it you don't get about this short passage of scripture in Matthew 24:31-36? Are you arbitrarily applying the "no one knows" scripture to some unmentioned PreTrib rapture? PreTrib appears absolutely nowhere in the Olivet Discourse. Are you still somehow, illogically and irrationally claiming this "no one knows" statement applies to your PreTrib pseudo-doctrine? How would you go about doing such a thing? I'm sure I'll be sorry I asked.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

By your statement above I can see that you also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

The problem is, you have the world's wrath against believers mixed up with God's wrath against the wicked.

God's wrath doesn't start until AFTER the appearance of the cosmic signs. It says it right there in Joel 2:31:

"The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

And those cosmic signs appear waaay deep inside the second half of the 70th Week. So if you want to be in compliance and obedience to Scripture, you'll need to make a SERIOUS adjustment to your beliefs.

The above is a common misconception in that, people make no distinction between the common trials and tribulations that the Lord said we would have as believers vs. God's coming wrath.

You're arguing with a phantom - lol. No one has made the argument you're trying to rebut. And my point stands -- millions of American PreTribbers have a strong sense of inappropriate 'entitlement' as a result of the mis-teachings and the false hopes of PreTrib. They feel they should NEVER have to go through great tribulation. After all (as this typical PreTrib pseudo-argument goes and which I heard 10,000 times growing up in PreTrib) "what kind of Blessed Hope would that be if the Bride were beaten bloody just before going to the altar" - lol.

In any case, your attempt at making a distinction makes no sense. If a Christian is being tortured to death for his faith, would he ask "Hey wait, am I being tortured to death during the Great Tribulation...or is this just regular tribulation? Oh, it's just regular tribulation? Good! Whew. What a relief. I feel much better!" LOL

There is no preparation for the tribulation period!

It's amazing how you have no hesitation to flat-out contradict the Bible. Jesus clearly tells the believers to whom He is speaking in the Olivet Discourse...that they are to "prepare" for the great tribulation"...by filling their lamps with oil to so as to be able to step out into the darkness.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hello MattTooFor,

The problem is, you have the world's wrath against believers mixed up with God's wrath against the wicked.

The world's wrath (common trial and tribulation) has been going on from the on-set of the church. After the church as been gathered, that seven year period will begin. That entire period is the wrath of God, not man's or the powers of darkness.

Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. People have attempted to make a distinction between man's and/or Satan's wrath during that seven years as an apologetic in order to protect there position. From the time of the apostles and the first century church through the centuries, including those places you mentioned where people are currently being persecuted and killed, they are suffering the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because we belong to him. Once the church has been gathered, after that will begin the time of God's wrath, which will continue up until Christ returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

OK, I'm so excited. After only 140 posts and four days, I finally got a PreTribber (any PreTribber would've been fine) to concede 'yes, we believe the gathering of Matthew 24 occurs on the 1260th day'.

It's been like trying to nail down Jell-o. But hey, we got there!

OK.

So.

The next thing is...if PreTrib believes (as I knew all along, by the way) this "gathering" occurs at exactly the completion of the 1260th day...how do they explain the little problem that occurs just a couple of verses after Matthew 24:31...where it says:

"Uh, no..the gathering does NOT occur at the 1260th day...in fact, no one knows when this event will occur...because 'no one knows the day or the hour except the Father'".

Pray tell, how would PreTrib explain it's bold, point-blank contradiction of a plain statement of Scripture and words coming directly from Jesus' lips?

And don't feel too bad if you have trouble answering this...because all the top mucky-muck PreTrib power-celebs never attempt to answer it either. You're on your own. Don't try to look up LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Jerry Jenkins, Chuck Missler, or any other of these PreTrib multi-millionaires. They all shuffle off into the shadows for these kinds of questions, of which there are hundreds.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hello MattTooFor,



The world's wrath (common trial and tribulation) has been going on from the on-set of the church. After the church as been gathered, that seven year period will begin. That entire period is the wrath of God, not man's or the powers of darkness.

Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. People have attempted to make a distinction between man's and/or Satan's wrath during that seven years as an apologetic in order to protect there position. From the time of the apostles and the first century church through the centuries, including those places you mentioned where people are currently being persecuted and killed, they are suffering the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because we belong to him. Once the church has been gathered, after that will begin the time of God's wrath, which will continue up until Christ returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.[/COLOR]

Your problem is...you go around simply 'announcing' your conclusions. It's quite silly. You have your announcements. I have a scripture that I quoted to you. My scripture which states the wrath of God does not begin until after the cosmic signs...trumps your 'announcements' -- LOL.