PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

the "day and hour" it is referring to the entire period, including all of the signs that Jesus listed as taking place prior to the end of the age when he returns. So, the "no one knows the day or the hour" would be referring to when the whole process of that time period begins, which begins with the gathering of the church.

No one knows the day or the hour in which the day of the Lord will begin, which is initiated by the appearing of the Lord to gather the church.

Complete and total nonsense. A bald-faced contradiction to the very passage itself. You haven't even proven the existence of this PreTrib doctrine in the first place...and now you're imposing your doctrine on the Olivet Discourse text in pure 'circular reasoning' fashion. Unbelievable.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds...

...but of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah..."

The "day and hour" clearly refers to the "coming of the Son of Man"...which only 3 verses earlier is an event described as coming AFTER the tribulation.

Your "fine tooth comb" is missing a few teeth, to say the very least.

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I'm not sure if that is aimed at me and/or others here but...I completely agree. Anyone who simply assumes they "know" something, does not yet know it as they ought. ALL my beliefs are up for review at ANY time. That's how I see it.

Not aimed at you per se....for the record I was raised as an imminent returner....don't buy it....post trib/pre wrath ingathering at the 7th and final trump....

Matthew, Mark and Luke all teach AFTER the great TRIB and the gathering by the angels from the uttermost part of the earth and heaven....there is NO imminent, invisible ingathering where everyone wondered where we went....it is visible and EVERY eye will see JESUS come with power and great glory.....from the saved disciples to the lost religious and every tribe, kindred and eye.......

The WRATH of GOD is announced in HEAVEN before the THRONE as being here at the 7th trump.....NOT the 6th seal.....the PEOPLE that are attempting to HIDE from the face of JESUS erroneously attribute the 6th seal to the wrath of God.......

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Well, wait a minute. By the time the "cosmic signs" appear, it's too late. This is happening literally mere moments before the gathering of the believers.

The cosmic signs are virtually the equivalent of the beginning downpour as Noah and his family retreat into the ark.

When the cosmic signs appear and there is the sound of the trumpet and a great shout and the glorious appearance of the Lord in the skies...believe me, they will interrupt the World Series or whatever else is taking place on the earth in those moments!

I feel that is a stretch. When we read the Noah narrative, we see that he preached, 2 Peter 2:5, righteousness. The warnings that were given was the preaching of Noah. His boat could be seen as a sign, but no one knew to look for it except **by faith** (which no one had) that Noah's warning of impending judgment was to come. We see in Genesis 7 that in the self same day of the impending judgment, Noah, his family, and the animals went into the ark for safety.

In Matthew 24 - we find the people are marrying, given in marriage, eating, drinking, living life normally. If as you said the "cosmic signs" appear and "it's too late" --> how silly are the people? Why would they continue to live life "normally" and why should they be described as doing so when the cosmic signs have literally wrecked physical damage to the earth's structure. To have signs occur first, then every day activity, then rapture makes little sense since that is not the days of Noah. The Days of Noah --> * Living life normally first, then rapture, then cosmic signs.

Otherwise, I question that people could even marry, eat, drink, or party while the earth is physically being destroyed. The time period, the atmosphere, the whole dynamics of Matthew 24:36-42 seem to be very different from Matthew 24:1-31.

But beyond that, I would argue you are absolutely, totally and completely running roughshod over a very simple text which has a very simple and crystal-clear structure:

The believers (the "disciples") ask Jesus what is going to happen in the 'end times'. He tells them there will be this horrific "Abomination of Desolation"...followed by the Great Tribulation"...which is then shut down by the glorious return of the King of Kings.

Which return makes very little sense if we decide that Matthew 24 is in chronological order. If Jesus is coming back to judge sinners at that time, why does he use the terminology of you do not know when your **Lord** is coming? Why does He use the analogy of the "thief" in the night? A thief does not announce his coming, if Matthew 24:36-42 is a Post-Trib or Mid-trib arrival or even a Post-mil or A-mil arrival, Jesus announced His coming with the cosmic sign events. This takes away from the "thief" analogy in which (according to 1 Thessalonians 5 and Matthew 24 of Jesus' words) - we are to know not the day, the hour, or the times and the seasons. Placing Matthew 24:36-42 in any other point on the prophetic time line other than the beginning totally negates that - we would know the glorious return would be 7 years or less.

There is NO "pre-trib rapture" to be seen anywhere, in any way, shape or form.

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation...then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now...but immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds..."

Like I said, an incredibly simple, straightforward description. There is no "PreTrib" anywhere to be found!

There is absolutely a huge amount of evidence that, in the least, there is an event (Matthew 24:36-42) whose dynamics do not fit the beginning portion of the Matthew 24 narrative. You may think I am running "roughshod" over the narrative, but we have a lot of comparisons / contrasts that don't make sense:

* Cosmic Signs / * Thief - You know not when your Lord cometh
* Persecutions and earth terrestrial disasters / * People living everyday like nothing happened
* Days of Noah, #1) preaching, #2) no signs #3) rescue #4) judgment ---> then if you believe Matthew 24 is strictly chronological, you have #1) tons of comic signs #2) not sure I see any preaching in the narrative #3) judgment. **

That's a contradiction, Matthew 24 would not be 'as in the days of Noah' because it doesn't follow the Noah pattern

There is enough within Matthew 24:36-42 to say - something very DIFFERENT is happening here, and it is not the end of the age 2nd Advent of Messiah immediately prior to the Millennial Reign. It is something else and the only event that makes sense is His glorious Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4 or John 14.

 

[Enow]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

One of the innumerable blindspots of PreTrib Rapture doctrine is that it has no place to fit in Jesus' flat declaration..."no one knows the day of the hour...but only the Father in heaven".

Since Jesus is quite clearly speaking to those who will find themselves INSIDE the events of the 70th Week...and more specifically, those who will find themselves inside the second half of the 70th Week...how is it possible these people would not know the "day or hour" when, in fact, the second half of the 70th Week lasts EXACTLY 1260 days?

Then ask yourself how the devil knows when to gather the world's armies at His return to come against Jerusalem?

If the beginning of the great tribulation is when they give the command out to build the Third Temple in Jerusalem, and the scriptures says it is 3 and a half for one event and 3 and a half for another thus a 7 year great tribulation, then everybody that is in the great tribulation can know when Jesus will return since it will be at the end of the great tribulation.

So the warnings of Jesus to His disciples in getting ready to go is before the great tribulation as the times that He describes for His disciples to get ready is not during the time of the oppression of the mark of the beast system to buy & sell in order to survive. Indeed, He said it was the cares of this life is why some will not want to leave to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb; see Luke 14:15-24 These were believers excusing themselves to come to the King's Supper with the Bridegroom in favor for the everyday cares of this life.

Jesus warned numerous times where believers will want to stay rather than leave to fight for this life t not lose it, but they will anyway because of the coming immediate fire on the earth & the following great tribulation as a result of that fire.

So now is the time to be ready because He may come at any moment whereas during the great tribulation, since teh devil knows when He is coming; so will the world's armies as prophesied. If they know... then the truth of no one knowing the hour nor the day pertains to the times we are living now; not for during the great tribulation.

Jesus wants us to be ready now.. and believers should go before that throne of grace for help from their Good Shepherd to discern & to depart from iniquity so that we may be received by Him when the Bridegroom appears for the bride of Christ; Luke 12:40-49 & Hebrews 12:1-2 & 2 Timothy 4:18

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor - Notice again Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:36-44, the appearing of Christ is described as secret (v. 36, 42, 44), unannounced and unexpected (v. 36 - 39, v. 43-44).

Yet the opening of Matthew 24 passage states the opposite - that His second coming would be public (v. 27-28) and attended to by signs (v. 30). One could possibly even calculate the exact date of Christ's return when the Abomination of Desolation occurs.

So I'm just pointing out that either Jesus is self-contradictory (which we know is not the case) or He is describing two different events (Matthew 24:1-31 vs. Matthew 24:36-44) in regards to His return.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor - Notice again Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:36-44, the appearing of Christ is described as secret (v. 36, 42, 44), unannounced and unexpected (v. 36 - 39, v. 43-44).

Yet the opening of Matthew 24 passage states the opposite - that His second coming would be public (v. 27-28) and attended to by signs (v. 30). One could possibly even calculate the exact date of Christ's return when the Abomination of Desolation occurs.

So I'm just pointing out that either Jesus is self-contradictory (which we know is not the case) or He is describing two different events (Matthew 24:1-31 vs. Matthew 24:36-44) in regards to His return.

Good day PeterJames,

I have been trying to get him and others to understand this very same thing. You've got all of the signs of Matt.24 plus the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments of Revelation. It would be like having a step by step set of instructions for when the Lord was going to return to the earth to end the age. If I was here during that time I could say "there's the seven year agreement with Israel." And I would then know that 3 1/2 years later that the abomination was going to be set up. Once I observed the 7th bowl judgment take place, then I would look up and watch for the signs of Matt.24:29-31.

Those who believe that the appearing of the Lord to gather his church as being imminent, are watching and longing for his appearing, which has no sings preceding it, except for the apostasy which I believe has been in the process of taking place. In opposition, those who have the church being gathered at the same time as the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would not be imminent, but has tons of signs leading right up to the very day of his return.

Below is a comparison of the two events:

===============================================

Rapture: Christ comes for the Church (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)
2nd Coming: Christ returns with the Church (Col.3:4; 1 Thes.3:13; Jude 14; Rev.17:14,19:14)

Rapture: Christ appears in the air, but not to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: Christ returns to the earth (Zech.14:4; Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)

Rapture: It is imminent (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6; Revelation 3:3)
2nd Coming: He clearly comes at the end of the Tribulation (Matt.24:29-30; 2 Thess.2:3-8)

Rapture: There are no signs
2nd Coming: There are many signs

Rapture: It is a time of joy … for the bride (1 Thessalonians 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1 John 3:3)
2nd Coming: It is a time of terror (Joel 3:12-16; Malachi 4:5; Revelation 19:11-21)

Rapture: Satan is not bound (1 Pet.5:8, Eph.6:10-16)
2nd Coming: Satan is bound (Revelation 20:1-3)

Rapture: Only the bride will see Him
2nd Coming: The whole world will see Him (Revelation 1:7; 19:11-16)

Rapture: Is a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; Colossians 1:26)
2nd Coming: No mystery (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10, 14:4)

Rapture: Christ gathers His bride to Himself (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: His angels gather the lost (Matthew 13:39, 41, 49; 24:31, 25:31; 2 Thes.1:7-10)

Rapture: Only for the bride, the Church (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: For the redeemed of Israel & the Gentiles (Matt.25:31-46; Rom.11:25-27)

Rapture: Christ does not arrive on a white horse
2nd Coming: Christ arrives on a white horse (Revelation 19:11)

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Not aimed at you per se....for the record I was raised as an imminent returner....don't buy it....post trib/pre wrath ingathering at the 7th and final trump....

Matthew, Mark and Luke all teach AFTER the great TRIB and the gathering by the angels from the uttermost part of the earth and heaven....there is NO imminent, invisible ingathering where everyone wondered where we went....it is visible and EVERY eye will see JESUS come with power and great glory.....from the saved disciples to the lost religious and every tribe, kindred and eye.......

The WRATH of GOD is announced in HEAVEN before the THRONE as being here at the 7th trump.....NOT the 6th seal.....the PEOPLE that are attempting to HIDE from the face of JESUS erroneously attribute the 6th seal to the wrath of God.......

From what I am understanding you to say...we're in very close agreement, no?

God's wrath is unleashed exactly in the sequence described in Joel 2:31 (and a couple other passages) -- AFTER the appearance of great cosmic signs.

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

From what I am understanding you to say...we're in very close agreement, no?

God's wrath is unleashed exactly in the sequence described in Joel 2:31 (and a couple other passages) -- AFTER the appearance of great cosmic signs.

Absolutely....after the 7 seals, Thunders and Trumps......at the 7th trump the announcement is made in heaven before the throne that the wrath of God has arrived-->found in the 7 bowls (viols)

The bible teaches post tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering/change......The Parousia of JESUS is the 2nd coming and the saints that go thru the tribulation ARE the saved, immersed church members........I.E> the ELECT.......

Jesus was clear, the scriptures are clear.......the Lord uses the great tribulation to purify his churches and Israel.....and the last time I checked....the LORD said NO ONE can know the day, nor the hour......he said nothing of the year and to NOTE...HE SAID this in the present CONTEXT while he was still on the earth BEFORE the writing of the N.T. and the books that give INSIGHT to his coming (Parousia)......and this whole 7 year period that is left is BOGUS as well....Daniel was clear...there are 1335 days left to deal with Israel (DANIEL 12)....the first 1185 days was the personal ministry to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....they rejected Christ (nationally) and will endure the last 1335 days.....the LORD's churches will be taken out IMO at the 1290th day....after we endure 1260 days of the GREAT tribulation as the BEAST makes war against the SAINTS and overcomes them, prevails against them and wears them out for 1260 days or 3.5 years or 42 months.

The word KEEP as applied unto the church in Philadelphia means to PROTECT from LOSS or HARM.....NOT REMOVE!

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

In Matthew 24 - we find the people are marrying, given in marriage, eating, drinking, living life normally. If as you said the "cosmic signs" appear and "it's too late" --> how silly are the people? Why would they continue to live life "normally" and why should they be described as doing so when the cosmic signs have literally wrecked physical damage to the earth's structure.

Again, I'm not clear about what you're perceiving here. The "marrying and giving in marriage" ends abruptly at the moment of the appearance of the great cosmic disturbances. Up to those moments, people were living life as usual.

You have to understand -- all the 'over the top' wild and crazy aspects of "the Day of the Lord"...those things only begin to occur AFTER the cosmic disturbances. See Joel 2:31.

The "day Noah entered the ark" is the day the people of earth knew they had blown it. The same goes for this "gathering" -- the world knows they have blown it, the moment these cosmic disturbances appear. I'm not sure what's not to understand!

why does he use the terminology of you do not know when your **Lord** is coming? Why does He use the analogy of the "thief" in the night?

Because believers who are going through the great tribulation will not know when the Lord is going to shut it down and "gather" His people.

Jesus announced His coming with the cosmic sign events. This takes away from the "thief" analogy in which (according to 1 Thessalonians 5 and Matthew 24 of Jesus' words) - we are to know not the day, the hour, or the times and the seasons.

In the same way a thief springs upon his victims...the cosmic events will spring upon the world in an instant.

Persecutions and earth terrestrial disasters / * People living everyday like nothing happened

OK so...believers will be going through hell on earth, i.e. the Great Tribulation. During that same time, unbelievers will be living life as usual.

That's a contradiction, Matthew 24 would not be 'as in the days of Noah' because it doesn't follow the Noah pattern

So...I guess I'm not following what you're saying here. I'm not following your logic, so far.

There is enough within Matthew 24:36-42 to say - something very DIFFERENT is happening here

One of the problems I am seeing for your position here...is that the PreTrib doctrine has not been previously established anywhere. There is absolutely NO passage anywhere in the Bible that teaches PreTrib doctrine. Therefore, you come to Matthew 24 and try to impose this (non-existent) doctrine on the passage...sort of proceeding on an assumption that PreTrib exists and that it is being obliquely referred to in the passage.

First of all, why would it only be obliquely referred to? Such a cataclysmic, paradigm-shifting event such as it would be (if it actually existed)...and we can only read between the lines in some sort of fashion?? Seems extremely dubious, to say the least.

Secondly, where is there any textual evidence of a PreTrib rapture? Jesus only refers to the Abomination of Desolation as the first specific event which believers are to look for. Now you're trying to argue that somehow there is a reference to an event that allegedly happens 3 1/2 years prior to the Abomination...but isn't referred to in any way, shape, or form in the text?

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

In Matthew 24:36-44, the appearing of Christ is described as secret (v. 36, 42, 44), unannounced and unexpected (v. 36 - 39, v. 43-44).

Yet the opening of Matthew 24 passage states the opposite - that His second coming would be public (v. 27-28) and attended to by signs (v. 30). One could possibly even calculate the exact date of Christ's return when the Abomination of Desolation occurs.

So I'm just pointing out that either Jesus is self-contradictory (which we know is not the case) or He is describing two different events (Matthew 24:1-31 vs. Matthew 24:36-44) in regards to His return.

Wait a minute. It is BOTH unannounced/unexpected AND "public".

It is "unannounced" up to the time it happens. And then when it happens, the whole world will see it.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

If I was here during that time I could say "there's the seven year agreement with Israel." And I would then know that 3 1/2 years later that the abomination was going to be set up.

You keep saying that and thus you keep contradicting the Bible. Jesus says the first specific event you will be able to see is...the Abomination of Desolation.

It is NOT this seven year agreement. One can only assume from what Jesus says and instructs regarding the Abomination being the first visible specific event...that the 7 year agreement is not publicly seen. In other words, a secret agreement.

And you keep walking away from points you can't handle:

There's the passage in Joel which clearly states the "day of the Lord" begins only AFTER the cosmic signs.

And then there is the "day and hour" statement which clearly and explicitly applies to the "coming of the Lord". See this post where the "coming of the Son of Man" is clearly described as coming AFTER the tribulation.

And so here we go again with your "wall of propaganda" technique. If you can't win an argument, just try to drown people out with your 'walls':

Rapture: Christ comes for the Church (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)
2nd Coming: Christ returns with the Church (Col.3:4; 1 Thes.3:13; Jude 14; Rev.17:14,19:14)

Right. Except it is a post "great tribulation" rapture. And there's really no such word as "church'. It's a word made up out of thin air by dubious 'translators' in olden times. The correct word is "the called out ones"

Rapture: Christ appears in the air, but not to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: Christ returns to the earth (Zech.14:4; Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)

Right. Except it's a post-"great tribulation" rapture. It's stated explicitly, right there in Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21. By contrast, PreTrib has exactly ZERO Bible passages which teach the doctrine.

Rapture: It is imminent (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6; Revelation 3:3)
2nd Coming: He clearly comes at the end of the Tribulation (Matt.24:29-30; 2 Thess.2:3-8)

Nope. There is no such thing as "imminency". Jesus prophesied to Peter that he would have to live all the way to old age and then suffer martyrdom. Thus, if the entire first generation of the Christian era had no imminency...imminency is D.O.A..

Rapture: Christ does not arrive on a white horse
2nd Coming: Christ arrives on a white horse (Revelation 19:11)

And again, you're just imposing your PreTrib doctrine without further ado. The post-trib "gathering" does not involve a horse.

It's quite amazing to watch PreTribbers try to ignore this gigantic, monumental event - "the gathering of the elect". Where IS that white horse, after all? PreTrib claims this IS the Big Event -- the second coming of the Lord. OK so...where's the horse?

Those are enough propaganda 'shoot-downs' for now. All you are doing here is imposing your PreTrib doctrine. It is utterly invalid. You argue by means of "announcements". You have nowhere previously proven PreTrib even exists...yet you want to impose it, top to bottom, on a prophecy discussion. Problem is...you're not "discussing". You're only "announcing".

And you run away from one point after the other...with two recent examples: 1) The scripture which states the "day of the Lord" occurs only AFTER the cosmic events...and 2) the point-blank textual evidence which indicates the "day and hour" applies to the "coming of the Lord"..which occurs when the angels "gather". On and on I could go.

 

[Bladerunner]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Not aimed at you per se....for the record I was raised as an imminent returner....don't buy it....post trib/pre wrath ingathering at the 7th and final trump....

Matthew, Mark and Luke all teach AFTER the great TRIB and the gathering by the angels from the uttermost part of the earth and heaven....there is NO imminent, invisible ingathering where everyone wondered where we went....it is visible and EVERY eye will see JESUS come with power and great glory.....from the saved disciples to the lost religious and every tribe, kindred and eye.......

The WRATH of GOD is announced in HEAVEN before the THRONE as being here at the 7th trump.....NOT the 6th seal.....the PEOPLE that are attempting to HIDE from the face of JESUS erroneously attribute the 6th seal to the wrath of God.......

DC,,,,hope this finds you well this evening..... If the above is erroneous then none of the Bible can be trusted to be true. REM it is inspired, written from/by GOD (Inerrant)

It is not erroneous... The seals are a judgement of God. From the Rapture, there is a pause, of unknown time period, a Rapture/Tribulation Gap' (one might say). The 1st seal shows us the antichrist is revealed. This was a prerequisite of Daniel's prophecy where the Church is to be removed prior to the antichrist's appearance on the world stage.

Between the 1st and the 4th seal the antichrist has time to come to popularity and world power. He has to be at world power because he "Confirms" a convenient with Israel in the 5th seal. This deal is prophesied in Isaiah 28:15. Here, Israel is Prophesied as making a deal with Death and Hell. It just so happens that the 4th seal rider(s) (x2) are named "Death and Hell" ...

Of course the 5th seal shows that a group of Martyred saints (under the altar) appearing to John in Heaven.. It is funny that they Cry to the LORD about 'How much longer must they wait for retribution of their deaths'. What is funnier is that God tells them they have to wait a while until others that will die as they did is fulfilled. These Tribulations Saints are brought seen in Rev. 7:14 ......Where did they come from,,,, most likely evangelized by the 144,000. John asked an ELDER in verse 13 and the ELDER tells him they came out of the "Great Tribulation"....HUMMMMMMMMM the "Great Tribulations" does not start until Rev. 12.... We see in REV 11,,, the temple is rebuilt and in Rev. 12 the woman (Israel) to the mountains in the south. I guess the Abomination of Desolation just took place.

Now would you like to debate the above or other?

Either way,,,have a great evening my friend/.

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Again, I'm not clear about what you're perceiving here. The "marrying and giving in marriage" ends abruptly at the moment of the appearance of the great cosmic disturbances. Up to those moments, people were living life as usual.

You have to understand -- all the 'over the top' wild and crazy aspects of "the Day of the Lord"...those things only begin to occur AFTER the cosmic disturbances. See Joel 2:31.

The "day Noah entered the ark" is the day the people of earth knew they had blown it. The same goes for this "gathering" -- the world knows they have blown it, the moment these cosmic disturbances appear. I'm not sure what's not to understand!

In Matthew 24:5, we see false Christs. 24:7, war. 24:8-9, murders of Christians and Jews apparently. 24:15 - Abomination of Desolation. 24:21 - "then shall be great tribulation". 24:23 - More false Christs. 24:29 - Sun is darkened and other sky disturbances including meteors showering the earth. v. 30 - Then the sign of the Son of man in heaven. v. 31 - Then the sending of the angels to gather the elect.

So are you saying that 24:36-44 is not **after** these things? Or are you suggesting all of the first part of Matthew 24 occurs simultaneous to 24:36-44?

It appears to me you yourself are moving the events of 24:36-44 to somewhere else on the prophetic timeline and that you don't hold that there is a strict chronology of Matthew 24. Which is fine, if that is the position you hold - I hold to a similar position. However, based on the thief analogy - I don't see how Matthew 24:36-44 could be moved anywhere to something other than before the beginning of all of these sorrows.

Because believers who are going through the great tribulation will not know when the Lord is going to shut it down and "gather" His people.

In the same way a thief springs upon his victims...the cosmic events will spring upon the world in an instant.

A thief comes not only suddenly, but also unannounced. Are you suggesting that we need not read into the thief analogy something as "unannounced" when Paul seems to indicate that **believers** will not know the times or the seasons (1 Thessalonians 5:1)? Or the same for Jesus' word here that we would not know the 'day or the hour'?

OK so...believers will be going through hell on earth, i.e. the Great Tribulation. During that same time, unbelievers will be living life as usual.

I see your logic if you think Matthew 24:36-44 is somewhere else on the Tribulation timeline, perhaps after the Antichrist makes peace with the earth but before the first mass-murders. I don't see a warrant for doing that, but I understand the logic you are coming from in seeing that Matthew 24 does not necessarily relate all the events in a strict orderly sequence.

So...I guess I'm not following what you're saying here. I'm not following your logic, so far.

One of the problems I am seeing for your position here...is that the PreTrib doctrine has not been previously established anywhere. There is absolutely NO passage anywhere in the Bible that teaches PreTrib doctrine. Therefore, you come to Matthew 24 and try to impose this (non-existent) doctrine on the passage...sort of proceeding on an assumption that PreTrib exists and that it is being obliquely referred to in the passage.

Actually, I perceived you would bring up such argument and that is why I tried to soften by saying Matthew 24:36-44 is something. At this point, I'd just like to establish that Matthew 24:36-44 cannot happen immediately after Matthew 24:1-31 because the dynamics simply do not fit. It *has* to move somewhere else; you have chosen to move it to some easy part of the Tribulation period, but I choose to move it before because otherwise - it would do damage to the idea that we know not when Christ would return.

I'll go so far as to say that if there is no pretribulation rapture in Matthew 24, it is not explicitly stated so well in any other part of Scripture.

First of all, why would it only be obliquely referred to? Such a cataclysmic, paradigm-shifting event such as it would be (if it actually existed)...and we can only read between the lines in some sort of fashion?? Seems extremely dubious, to say the least.

I don't think it's an indirect reference at all; I believe it is a very direct reference in both the language and the understanding of left behind/taken/days of Noah, *your Lord* coming, thief etc.

I concede moving that left behind narrative to some other part of the end times chronology may solve some of your issues, but I don't believe it solves them all.

Secondly, where is there any textual evidence of a PreTrib rapture? Jesus only refers to the Abomination of Desolation as the first specific event which believers are to look for. Now you're trying to argue that somehow there is a reference to an event that allegedly happens 3 1/2 years prior to the Abomination...but isn't referred to in any way, shape, or form in the text?

[/QUOTE]

The evidence is from the fact that the Matthew 24:36-44 narrative does not fit exactly after Matthew 24:1-31. I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but there are definitely contradictions between the two narratives **if** seen from strictly a chronological point of view.

But from what I am gathering from what you are saying, you are advocating moving this narrative someplace else on the time line. If that is not what you are saying, I still can't get behind the idea that LARGE "stars" have hit the earth, that genocide of believers and Jews are occurring, there are false Christs up the wazoo, (from Revelation) that people are taking the mark of the beast ... and yet Christ warns **believers** that they know not when their Lord comes. That there is a warning to **believers** they won't know the day or the hour; to **believers** they won't know the times or the seasons.

None of that makes sense as everything in Matthew 24 (from a faithful pre-wrath or post-trib view) should **be** the warnings. Yet Jesus opens that door and says even believers will not know either the timing or suddenness of His appearing.

There's too much word play here in this passage; either what Jesus is saying is metaphorical or literal. If it is metaphorical, then we need to hammer out a hermeneutic to understand it. If it is is literal, then we obviously need to work on understanding how the end times event can fit in a sequence in which the thief analogy, the reference to 'your Lord', and the warning to believers that He is coming unannounced makes sense.

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

By the way Matt-to-For - I am not totally sure of what theological end time persuasion you are, you know I am pre-trib.

However, for me - It is only the a-mil position or post-mil position that I **strongly** disagree with, there are good believers in those camps as well.

But if I had to really fight for the text of Matthew 24 or the others as being dispensational, it would be more or less in those camps. For us Dispensationalists (and again, unsure if that is where you find yourself) - I know there is a wide range of disagreements as to exactly where the rapture fits if at all, but in the end ... we're all ascending together (even the amil and postmil).

I strongly defend Israel as a nation, and that is really the non-negotiable to me. Our previous discussion is "in house" banter to me, but am happy to call you a brother in the Lord if you've accepted Christ as your personal Savior.

 

[garee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I continue to make it known that, one of the problems that exists in the controversy regarding the timing of the gathering of the church is 1) People do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and 2) they are not trusting in scripture, which tells the believer that they are not destined to go through the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven. That wrath began in the Garden when God gave Adam and Eve over to a strong delusion needed to believe the lie of the father of lies. When Christ comes in Spirit , seeing we do not know him any more, forever more, after the flesh as a one-time outward demonstration of the work of His Spirit pouring out His Spirit .(unseen eternal) Then will the end come as the new heavens and earth appear and the old goes up in smoke of His wrath..

We are in the tribulation, it began at the time of reformation.This is when the veil was rent.This is when there was no longer a need for shadows and types in respect to the outward flesh of a Jew. A tribulation not known before.

It revealed the antichrists, the Jews who do not believe Christ ,the Holy Spirit has come in the flesh. The inward Jew born again of the Spirit of Christ they will not come into the final judgement on the last day, the day of Christ, the seventh trump and the second and final resurrection. All in the twinkling of the eye..

 

[garee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Again, this is where you are not understanding. You're looking at "the day or the hour" as the exact day that Jesus returns, When it is referring to when the day of the Lord begins, which starts with the church being gathered with the wrath of God following immediately after.

The day (not days) of the Lord, or the day of Christ is the last day, resurrection day. The twinkle of an eye day. The day of the seventh trump for the believer. But the Day of Judgment for those who know not Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The day (not days) of the Lord, or the day of Christ is the last day, resurrection day. The twinkle of an eye day. The day of the seventh trump for the believer. But the Day of Judgment for those who know not Christ.

Good day garee,

The day of the Lord, also referred to as "the hour of trial" is neither a literal day nor a literal hour, but is referring to that time period in which God's wrath will take place. There are seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments that will all take place during the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is initiated by the gathering of the church and also includes the Lords return to the earth to end the age. It is a moniker referring to a time period, not a single day.

The day of the seventh trump for the believer. But the Day of Judgment for those who know not Christ.

As I have said so many times, the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments, is not the last trumpet referred to in 1 Cor.15:52. The church will have been removed from the earth prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because they make up God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. Why do you continue to ignore this fact?

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven. That wrath began in the Garden when God gave Adam and Eve over to a strong delusion needed to believe the lie of the father of lies. When Christ comes in Spirit , seeing we do not know him any more, forever more, after the flesh as a one-time outward demonstration of the work of His Spirit pouring out His Spirit .(unseen eternal) Then will the end come as the new heavens and earth appear and the old goes up in smoke of His wrath..

We are in the tribulation, it began at the time of reformation.This is when the veil was rent.This is when there was no longer a need for shadows and types in respect to the outward flesh of a Jew. A tribulation not known before.

It revealed the antichrists, the Jews who do not believe Christ ,the Holy Spirit has come in the flesh. The inward Jew born again of the Spirit of Christ they will not come into the final judgement on the last day, the day of Christ, the seventh trump and the second and final resurrection. All in the twinkling of the eye..

Garee, I assure that the wrath of God has not yet begun. The OT saints and the apostles prophesied of it as future event. The wrath of God will be an unprecedented time like nothing the earth has ever experienced and will take place during that last seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age where at which time he will establish his millennial kingdom.

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

As I have said so many times, the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments, is not the last trumpet referred to in 1 Cor.15:52. The church will have been removed from the earth prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because they make up God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. Why do you continue to ignore this fact?

Yes, Ahwatukee! I personally believe the Last Trump is in reference to the 'Tekiah Ha Godolah', the last trump of the Feast of Trumpets which (amazingly), no one really knows will occur until someone has identified the silver sliver of the moon.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

It would be interesting if you were able to have a theoretical conversation with the Lord Himself regarding this subject:

Dan: "Lord, I notice You're providing a bunch of specific warnings and advisories about a specific upcoming set of events. Is the general vigilance which you require of believers in everyday life...is that vigilance inferior to the 'vigilance' required to live through the dark hours of the Great Tribulation?"

do you mean this as a theoretical conversation I'm having with God?

Comparing those two scenarios is a bit like comparing the "vigilance" of going to the trouble of thinking ahead and getting some good flight insurance...and comparing that kind of vigilance to the "vigilance" which kicks in when you realize you're in a airplane which is about to experience a crash. When one realizes a mishap is about to take place...I would argue there is a whole new level of intensity which kicks in.

well, maybe this is where we see it differently

Mark 4: Then came a violent squall of wind which drove the waves aboard the boat until it was almost swamped. Jesus was in the stern asleep on the cushion.

It sounds like you're saying "well, if something bad happens, I'll be ready".

But the believer who takes the Olivet Discourse at simple face value and has (figuratively speaking) sat himself down next to Peter, James and John and the other believers who were present at the Olivet Discourse...someone like that (I want to include myself in that grouping) knows a crash landing is upcoming and, in fact, can see the mishap taking place before his eyes (in a kind of 'slow motion').

That's a whole different ballgame that just a generic "vigilance".

In the Luke 21 version of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus proposes a prayer of protection to those who find themselves in this "great tribulation".

He says - "pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen". There might be a suggestion of physical preparation...to the extent that one can undertake such things. Of course, I live in California where almost everyone has 3, 6, 12 days of food and water set aside for earthquakes and such.

how many days of food do you have stored? do you recommend having a gun also? a regular handgun, or an AK-47?