probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots
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The weakness is not just that. The weakness actually goes back to how legitimate the Talmud is. Oral laws were strictly conveyed and enforced by the Pharisees. Sadducees (and possibly most levite priests too) only embraced the written laws.
After AD 70 siege, the Sanhedrin was gone with those elite Pharisees and Sadducees. It was after AD 200 (more than 150 years later) that a group of unauthenticated rabbis popping from no where started to revive Judaism. However they adapted a set of contradictory concepts to the once dominated Pharisaic concepts (i.e., in terms of immortal souls, hell, freewill etc.). As a result, today's Jewish concepts (of Judaism) are completely different from those in Jesus time, which back then were Pharisaic based.
Talmud then was an attempt to revive the once verbally conveyed laws by the Pharisees. Then the messianic concept was also re-developed.
The point is, if today's Jews failed to keep the same fundamental religious concepts as 2000 years ago. Then how legitimate and original are their other concepts such as the interpretation of the OT (they can't be right without the basic Pharisaic concept in place), the Talmud and the messianic concept.
After AD 70 siege, the Sanhedrin was gone with those elite Pharisees and Sadducees. It was after AD 200 (more than 150 years later) that a group of unauthenticated rabbis popping from no where started to revive Judaism. However they adapted a set of contradictory concepts to the once dominated Pharisaic concepts (i.e., in terms of immortal souls, hell, freewill etc.). As a result, today's Jewish concepts (of Judaism) are completely different from those in Jesus time, which back then were Pharisaic based.
Talmud then was an attempt to revive the once verbally conveyed laws by the Pharisees. Then the messianic concept was also re-developed.
The point is, if today's Jews failed to keep the same fundamental religious concepts as 2000 years ago. Then how legitimate and original are their other concepts such as the interpretation of the OT (they can't be right without the basic Pharisaic concept in place), the Talmud and the messianic concept.
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The difference is found easily. The ones that follow after the rabbinical laws of men, as oral tradition of the fathers called a law of the fathers. They persecuted those who trusted all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) . Servings the wrong kind of fathers, as the things of men, having a faith in respect to men. (that seen) and not having faith in Christ, (not seen).
Saul being on both sides of fence was now persecuted to death in respect to those from another sect he once was a part of. Called the confederacy, as mere commandments of men .They measured themselves by and to themselves. They were considered not wise according to the wisdom of God.
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I think the biggest weakness are that so many don't have actual Hebrew roots and don't actually live according to the Torah. The Torah was a form of civil and political organization - government - as much as it was some sort of spiritual list of things to observe. And Torah requirements were often explicit, specific and concrete, not spiritualized and internalized to individuals own personal lives. There was no separation of Church and State in the world of the Torah; they were intertwined with one another. So, nobody really live under that sort of system these days and many of it's requirements are impossible to follow.
that's not true but I refuse to answer so you and others can continue to apply their own understanding to what the text says... no matter how I respond it really wouldn't matter would it?
I have seen other responses from you and believe me anyone in these forums can look for themselves, even if they agree with your understanding, you have been very abrasive to say the least , others as well not just yourself, yet when called in it you refuse to even acknowledge your wrongdoing, so frankly until I see and effort from someone to really want to now, not just so they can mock my understanding and application of scripture, I do realize my view is not the popular one on here and many misunderstand and think I'm am in some sort of supposed bondage, I can respect others differences, why cant you?
I have seen other responses from you and believe me anyone in these forums can look for themselves, even if they agree with your understanding, you have been very abrasive to say the least , others as well not just yourself, yet when called in it you refuse to even acknowledge your wrongdoing, so frankly until I see and effort from someone to really want to now, not just so they can mock my understanding and application of scripture, I do realize my view is not the popular one on here and many misunderstand and think I'm am in some sort of supposed bondage, I can respect others differences, why cant you?
I've asked you a few short, direct questions.
If you feel pain when considering them, it's probably because you realize on some level that your beliefs don't hold together, and that you can't really discuss them openly.
I don't think Christians trying to keep the Law is a "let's just all get along" situation.
GALATIANS 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
GALATIANS 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
If you feel pain when considering them, it's probably because you realize on some level that your beliefs don't hold together, and that you can't really discuss them openly.
I don't think Christians trying to keep the Law is a "let's just all get along" situation.
GALATIANS 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
GALATIANS 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
P
In fairness to Yonah, I can see why he might not find the question about plumbing or furnace very fair. I've not agreed with his position on most things, but I do see his point here.
I think we have to look at the reason or purpose behind each law. Some laws were given for sanitary reasons. The instruction to take a shovel and go outside the camp when you needed to relieve yourself was given to keep the camp clean and disease free. Modern plumbing ( not available during the OT) accomplishes the same thing. So, in my opinion a person living in today's society is fulfilling the intention of this law. Turning on your furnace is not "working." It requires a second to flip on a switch. I don't think God was intending that the Israelites would be without heat on the Sabbath. He ordered them not to collect sticks on the Sabbath. They were supposed to do all preparatory work during the week and rest on the Sabbath.
I think we have to look at the reason or purpose behind each law. Some laws were given for sanitary reasons. The instruction to take a shovel and go outside the camp when you needed to relieve yourself was given to keep the camp clean and disease free. Modern plumbing ( not available during the OT) accomplishes the same thing. So, in my opinion a person living in today's society is fulfilling the intention of this law. Turning on your furnace is not "working." It requires a second to flip on a switch. I don't think God was intending that the Israelites would be without heat on the Sabbath. He ordered them not to collect sticks on the Sabbath. They were supposed to do all preparatory work during the week and rest on the Sabbath.
several good points, there!
if we know why a commandment was given, then we don't need to follow the letter of that commandment, just the spirit of it. Of course, that's what Christians have always done... follow the spirit not the letter... but I don't think that's what HRM teaches.
lighting a fire in your furnace on the Sabbath seems to break this commandment:
"Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day."
if we know why a commandment was given, then we don't need to follow the letter of that commandment, just the spirit of it. Of course, that's what Christians have always done... follow the spirit not the letter... but I don't think that's what HRM teaches.
lighting a fire in your furnace on the Sabbath seems to break this commandment:
"Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day."
The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"
by P
Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source:
World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian,
Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).
The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations,
but it defines the word "denomination" as an organized
Christian group within a specific country:
“Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.” (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)
The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition)
by P
Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source:
World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian,
Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).
The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations,
but it defines the word "denomination" as an organized
Christian group within a specific country:
“Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.” (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)
The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition)
P
Just to clarify, I agree with you. I'm not defending HRM by any means. Initially I wasn't sure that plumbing and electricity were fair examples but I think you have a point with the second. After I posted in this thread last night, I researched what modern Rabbis think about using plumbing and electricity on the Sabbath. I read a few different opinions from different websites. It's interesting to read their thoughts. They consider this a valid concern and discussion ( they didn't dismiss this concern as ridiculous or petty). So, I take back my objection, haha. If the Rabbis take the time to thoughtfully address this concern, I think it's fair for us non HRM members to raise the question. It seemed like there were differing views from various Rabbis concerning modern application of these laws.
(not to derail this thread but if anyone is curious this is one site I found: VAYAKHEL-PEKUDEI: Kindling Fire on the Sabbath)
(not to derail this thread but if anyone is curious this is one site I found: VAYAKHEL-PEKUDEI: Kindling Fire on the Sabbath)
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The number one greatest deception of some sects of the Hebrew Roots Movement is that they deny Christ's work on the cross and try to get gentile Christians to go back to the law of Moses for life and living.
To them you are dis-obeying God if you don't do what they do on the Sabbath or feasts and they try to manipulate and guilt others if they don't do what they do. They try to mask this deception by hiding behind " We are just obeying God".
NO they are not obeying God because God told us exactly what His commandments are now in the New Covenant of His Son - our Lord Jesus. 1 John 3:23
This is an anti-Christ religion belief system and this deception can easily been seen in the person's threads that always try to lift up the law of Moses - and never Christ.
The saints have been warned against these Judaizer attempts and we will NOT desert our Lord fore the law of Moses nor will we commit spiritual adultery on our Lord either because we are dead to the law of Moses SO THAT we could be joined to Another - Christ Himself. Romans 7:1-6.
To them you are dis-obeying God if you don't do what they do on the Sabbath or feasts and they try to manipulate and guilt others if they don't do what they do. They try to mask this deception by hiding behind " We are just obeying God".
NO they are not obeying God because God told us exactly what His commandments are now in the New Covenant of His Son - our Lord Jesus. 1 John 3:23
This is an anti-Christ religion belief system and this deception can easily been seen in the person's threads that always try to lift up the law of Moses - and never Christ.
The saints have been warned against these Judaizer attempts and we will NOT desert our Lord fore the law of Moses nor will we commit spiritual adultery on our Lord either because we are dead to the law of Moses SO THAT we could be joined to Another - Christ Himself. Romans 7:1-6.
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Morning Grace777X70, disciplemike, all
Regarding this issue between the law and grace, you would think that the issue would be crystal clear after reading what Peter had to say in Acts 15:5-11, when that group of Pharisees were claiming that the Gentile believers should be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses. If what the Pharisees were proclaiming was true, then instead of the answer that was given, Peter would have confirmed the need to keep the law. But according to his answer, regarding the law he said, "why do you put a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear. No, we believe that it is by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Regarding this issue between the law and grace, you would think that the issue would be crystal clear after reading what Peter had to say in Acts 15:5-11, when that group of Pharisees were claiming that the Gentile believers should be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses. If what the Pharisees were proclaiming was true, then instead of the answer that was given, Peter would have confirmed the need to keep the law. But according to his answer, regarding the law he said, "why do you put a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear. No, we believe that it is by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
I don't have any problem with answering your questions at all never did, heres the problem and maybe you should acknowledge this, you have people who will agree with you, and you think this justifies your mockery of my faith, anyone can read your previous responses not only to me but others, your responses are not from someone who wants answers but rather from someone who thinks we need to justify our beliefs, you and others feel as weve fallen from grace, or are trying to lead folks away from our Savior, when in fact none of those things are true.
you think you can goad me into answering you in this way but I will not, if you actually want to know, without the motive to condemn of belittle then i will be glad to answer anyones questions, but the fact is all you want to do is make light of what I believe through your missapplication of the biblical text, you and others on this site have been taught lies, and have accepted the lie in place of the truth.
now if your capable of haveing a real discussion on these matters I will be glad to have it, my motive is not to convince anyone, (unlike yourself and others) all I wish to do is give answer for the faith that's in me, you and your walk and how you choose to do it, is none of my business, and just because you think you know what you have been taught to be true doesn't mean it is... so if you or anyone else here can drop your attitude thinking just because I am trying to serve and walk my savior the best I know how, is denying him or his work on the cross, then ill have a discussion, if you cant do that theres now point.
IMO, folks who expand certain ordinances far beyond what the ordinance actually says become more pharisetical themselves in trying to prove how pharisetical the people are who try and keep it, yet fail at their expanded ordinance.
Don't kindle a fire. Fire was meant to heat and cook. So don't start a fire to heat and cook.
Don't have anyone in your home work, family or slave. So, don't have anyone in your home work.
Pretty simple unless people want to get pharisetical about it and say, "Well certainly God meant they couldn't turn on their furnace or make the electric company employee work."
Don't kindle a fire. Fire was meant to heat and cook. So don't start a fire to heat and cook.
Don't have anyone in your home work, family or slave. So, don't have anyone in your home work.
Pretty simple unless people want to get pharisetical about it and say, "Well certainly God meant they couldn't turn on their furnace or make the electric company employee work."