probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

[MacBestus]

Sadly it's a Talmudic pharisaical approach that is or will soon be watered into Calvism. Like C.ha.bad it's still rooted in kabbalism / Jewish mysticism. I say 'sadly' because they have developed a superficial hermeneutic and exegetical system that has much to teach.

(we can also learn from kabbala and Tanya and Talmud the many deceptive Jewish mystical techniques but is best left alone or to the adepts).

Again...not even remotely true. You may be speaking af Messianic Jews.

And no believer should be studing Talmud as it was rejected by Messiah. Quabbalah is Witchcraft and so is also forbidden to all true believers.

If you want to start dissecting the HRM movement theologically, it tends to run towards Armenienism more than Calvinism. So theres THAT.

 

[MacBestus]

In my opinion, the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots Movement and Sacred Name Movement is that they ignore the New Testament or cherry pick only some verses from it.

Silliest statement yet. The whole HRM movement is ABOUT using the WHOLE bible. And while most HRM believers use some form of the Madters name in Hebrew, they are quite different from the Sacred Name Movement. Which states you MUST use their choosen pronunciation for salvation.

 

[MacBestus]

To me the number 1 error is that some Hebrew Roots Movement people that I have observed here in CC is that they continually leave out Christ for the Law of Moses.

Paul said that in the last days people would be anti-Christ - NOT anti-God. They are all for "God" in the form of the Jewish Law of Moses but are definitely anti-Christ in their belief system. They are continually trying to get Gentile Christians to go back to the Law of Moses just like Paul's Judaizers in the book of Galatians. Paul said that he didn't let this be for even one hour. Ga. 2:3-5

There is a massive difference between being for Christ and being for God although one wouldn't think there shouldn't be - but there is. Muslims are all for "God" in their own thinking as well.

Brethren, this is one of the most common errors people make about HRM. Judaizer. This word is aptly explained in the Greek Scriptures, yet people keep trying to apply it to Torah Keepers like Our Messiah. All the apostles including Paul. And modern torah keepers as well. More ignorant than silly really. Messiah never taught against Torah. He lived it! He taught against TALMUD The religion of the JEWS. Not the religion of the bible. Such as the Hand washing etc. I will pretend you didn't try to pull this one off as so many verses in the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles explain it. Honestly people.

HRM centers on Messiah to the point of trying to live as he lived and taught. Not on the law. We do not keep the law to be saved. We keep the law as best we can because He did Save us. And he told us if we loved him to keep his commandments. Do you love him? Ok then.

 

[KohenMatt]

HRM centers on Messiah to the point of trying to live as he lived and taught. Not on the law. We do not keep the law to be saved. We keep the law as best we can because He did Save us. And he told us if we loved him to keep his commandments. Do you love him? Ok then.

I agree completely with this paragraph in particular.

One thing I would offer up as a clarification is that not ALL people who would refer to themselves as "Hebrew Roots" focus on Messiah solely. As a pastor in the HRM, I've sadly seen many others who focus so much on the Torah that they lose sight of Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[Grandpa]

Romans 7:4-6
[FONT=&quot]4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:9-14
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Hebrew roots folks don't really understand the predicament they place theirselves into. Attempting to mix the covenants and pretending this is pleasing to God.

Choose just one covenant, please. Be hot or cold.[/FONT]

 

[Dan_473]

This is an untrue statement on a great many levels.

First of all, while some Jewish people live in Jewish areas by no means is it most. The UK and the USA are the areas I am most familiar with, and in both the majority of Jewish people live in regular mixed neighborhoods rather than "Jewish" neighborhoods.

Also, not all observent Jews study the ancient Rabbinical works. Large groups of Observant Jews use the Hebrew Scriptures found in the New Testament only. Such as the Karites.

And lastly, almost every Hebrew Roots believer tries to follow all applicable and permissible laws. Not for salvation but BECAUSE they are saved. A little reading in Romans should help you understand this better. One of the things people like to do is ask HRM believers in sarcastic tones wether they make sacrifices or would stone their children or something of the like. This merely lets the Hebrew Roots believer know the commenters lack of bible knowledge. Many laws can only be kept by priests, such as sacrifices. And even priests must use the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. Ehich does mot currently exist. There are many more such things as these. Please beloved brethren, study to show yourselves approved.

Hi MacBestus, welcome to CC!

let's start with observant Jews and community. From what I've seen, most observant Jews live as part of a tight community, often geographical, often social. Have you seen something different?

 

[MacBestus]

I hope you are not one of those Hebrews that has rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Don't they (unbelievers) understand that if they do not accept Jesus by the time of the rapture, they will have to go through the tribulations and over 2/3 of those living at its beginning will die before its end.. To put that in perspective, WWII killed roughly 1/3 of the Jewish population through out the world.

I hope you have accepted Christ and His Gospel for the only way to His Father is through Jesus Christ.

Interesting comment. Anyone rejecting Messiah is in for a rough ride whether they are Hebrew or not.

As far as the rapture teaching... Well it is so unbiblical that it is disturbing to me that ANYONE believes it. Huge problems will also be in the path of those who buy into this heresy. Especially those that believe in a pre tribulation Rapture and do not study the whole bible so they can be where they are supposed to be when they are supposed to be there. Physically, spiritually, and mentally.

 

[Dan_473]

Again, i do not know where you get your information. All Hebrew Roots celebrate the WHOLE bible. And try to live it. In actuality it is people who call themselves plain Christian who disregard large sections if the book. Old Testament and New. Most especially the law.

As to what laws we decide to keep, nothing could be simpler. We start with the four given in Acts 15:20. Then we study to show ourselves approved and learn Torah. As we learn more we add in the ones we are allowed to follow. It is very easy. And commanded in Acts 15:21.

please talk more about the process of adding ones we are allowed to follow

 

[MacBestus]

Romans 7:4-6
[FONT=&quot]4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:9-14
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Hebrew roots folks don't really understand the predicament they place theirselves into. Attempting to mix the covenants and pretending this is pleasing to God.

Choose just one covenant, please. Be hot or cold.[/FONT]

Wow. Where to begin with this... First. Do you understand what the new covenant (renewed covenant is some translations. Either is fine) is? How we know when it begins? Etc.?

Let us begin with the terms first use in Scripture. This is in Jerimiah 31. Starting in verse 31:


31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Plain enough. There will be a new or covenant (contract) in the future, even though it is undeserved because the second party - Israel (whether physical bloodline or grafted in members) broke the original contract. Okay let us continue.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hmm. So the law will still be involved. After all he is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Only now it will be embedded into us. Written in our hearts and minds. Okay. Lets hold onto that for a minute. And go on reading.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Okay so there will be no more spiritual teachers when the new covenant begins. Do you have a pastor? Are you a pastor? Then you are NOT in a New Covenant Church by the biblical definition. did you think you were? Do you live somewhere that every body great and small lives in communion with The Father and The Messiah? No? Then the New Covenant has not started where you live. So when does this begin? Do not worry we are told as we keep reading

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

So we are told this is The Fathers word. And that it will take place when not only Israel but also the whole of Jerusalem is Whole and Holy TO TH FATHER. ie no mosques etc. Forevermore. That hasnot happened yet. All this is plainly written with no interpretation needed. And is echoed pretty much word for word in Hebrews 8. So it is pretty much impossible to "mix" the covenants if you are a whole bible believer. I will respond to your verses in another reply.

 

[MacBestus]

Because I am posting this on a smartphone and it is a bad arthritis day, please bear with my slew of typos.

 

[MacBestus]

Romans 7:4-6
[FONT=&quot]4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:9-14
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Hebrew roots folks don't really understand the predicament they place theirselves into. Attempting to mix the covenants and pretending this is pleasing to God.

Choose just one covenant, please. Be hot or cold.[/FONT]

Okay.. Lets tackle your failure to read all of Romans.

As Peter said Paul is hard to understand so beware those who try to twist him to reach lawlessness. I posted this scripture a couple of verses back. This is a prime example of that.

By your quoting of Romans you get half the picture. We are to live in Faith. By Grace. Not Counting on the law to save us. Because we have all broken it, therefore sinning, as sinning is violation of the law. I am right with you. But isn't there a few things you are leaving out of your Romans quote in order to "prove" your lawlessness good?

What about:
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Or Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And remembering once again that sin is lawlessness lets read more in Chapter 6

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


I guess we should stay away from sin. I.e. keep the law. But Brother Paul is not done yet. He REALLY does not want people to try and use Romans as you tried to. He goes on...

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There is actually much more in Romans but 6:15 should be enough to anyone with a modicum of study. Or common reasoning ability.


Lets just say you should read the whole book. i will respond to your Galations misuse after lunch.

 

[stonesoffire]

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind. We do when we understand the gospel of grace which leads us to the new commandment....Jesus speaking...love others as I have loved you. Puts a whole new spin on things for the heart is at the heart of the whole matter of obedience now.

forgot strength.

 

[MacBestus]

Romans 7:4-6
[FONT=&quot]4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:9-14
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Hebrew roots folks don't really understand the predicament they place theirselves into. Attempting to mix the covenants and pretending this is pleasing to God.

Choose just one covenant, please. Be hot or cold.[/FONT]

Okay, lets look at the Galations passage. Firstly lets look at the word cursed as then we will be all on the same page. From thayers online concordance:

"G2671

Original: κατάρα
Transliteration: katara
Phonetic: kat-ar'-ah
Thayer Definition:
an execration, imprecation, curse
Origin: from G2596 (intensive) and G685
TDNT entry: 08:29,8
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Strong's Definition: From G2596 (intensive) and G685; imprecation, execration: - curse (-d"

So cursed means yelled at or identified badly and loudly. Not damned... So we can be identified as sinners by the law. This is essentially the same thing we learned in Romans. Man cannot save himself by living the law. Okay. Live by faith. Okay no argument. But the law itself is not sin - As he said in Romans. AND IF WE TRY TO SAVE OURSELVES BY THE LAW, WE IDENTIFY OURSELVES AS HORRIBLE SINNERS- as he said in Galations. Okay. The HRM movement teaches that we are saved by Grace and keep the law beacause we are saved and have no more place in sin,which is law breaking. It would appear you are arguing for the HRM more than against it when you quote Romans and Galations. Remember the just live by Faith, but Faith without works is lost.

 

[MacBestus]

Hi MacBestus, welcome to CC!

let's start with observant Jews and community. From what I've seen, most observant Jews live as part of a tight community, often geographical, often social. Have you seen something different?

Thank you for your Welcome. There are lots of different Jewish groups. In my experience -mainly US and UK- many jewish groups do have a tight community either in a neighborhood or at least socially as you stated. But many more live in mixed neighborhoods and may be quite a distance from like minded believers, the same as many Christians.

There are also as much variation in Jewish belief groups as there are Christian belief groups. And they are often just as hesitant to cross those lines as a Jehovas Witness would be to go into a Mormon Church. Just as you can loosely break Christendom in Catholic and Protestant, and not really narrow things to much the same is true of Judaism. The loose seperation of Reform,Conservative, and Orthodox does not nearly paint the picture. even dividing the ultra conservative into Hascidic and Haredim does not begin to touch it as every Hascidic group hasits own Rebbe who sets precedents for that groups rabbis in terms of dress and food and headcoverings as well as spiritual matters. So you can have hascidic families who live next door to each other and have nothing to do with each other because this one eats strawberries or that one women wear wigs instead of snoods. And often business will seperate Jews from their groups much as it will in the Christian world. Setting up islands consiating of single families.

So Christians have 2 main branches and thousands of sects and Judaism has. 3 main branches and thousands of sects.

 

[MacBestus]

to use the toilet, do you take a shovel and go outside the camp?

if you live where it's cold, do you light the fire in your furnace on the Sabbath?[/QUOTE.]

I have used a shovel to put a cesspool iutside of my house yes. And the prohibition on lighting a fire for work does not apply to a furnace. You should really dtudy the law if you are interested in commenting on it.

 

[Atwood]

MacBestus, I thought you might be doing a serious linguistic discussion of Hebrew roots, generally triliteral in the OT Hebrew!

 

[MacBestus]

I question whether they are really Christian. There are many false versions of Jesus around and they have theirs.
The real Jesus came to fulfil the Law because we cant do it ourselves so why do they insist on trying to persuade us
that we can?

You are on shaky ground here. Messiah told us over and over that his laws were not grevious and that he expected them to be kept. Just a couple of these verses are

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Panic comes from anomia which means lawlessness. As does iniquity.

Or Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Pretty sure heaven and earth haven't passed away yet. i would have noticed. Besides we are told this happens at the end of the millennium. Which happens AFTER the second coming. There are many other verses but these two are pretty plain. So while he did come to fufill the law for us. he expected us to keep on working at improving ourselves. And avoiding sin. Which is lawlessness. There are so many twists that have to be made to make lawlessness what the Master taught it is actually weird that anyone gets caught up in it.

 

[MacBestus]

The greatest weakness of the Hebrew Roots movement is that they have gone back to those old Hebrew Roots.

Do not make the unlearned argument concerning the law of the bible being the laws of the talmud.

 

[MacBestus]

I understand that you were offended, but there's really no need to be.




They are simple questions. Likely answers are

No, I use modern plumbing.
Yes, I light the fire in my furnace on the Sabbath.

But then, such answers would show that one is deciding for oneself which laws to keep.

Actually i would say they show that you have to spend more time sstudying the law.

 

[MacBestus]

Few HRM keep talmud. You seem to be talking about messianic Jews