probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

[KohenMatt]

here is a question- how do ya'll Hebrew roots guys define the yoke, you know the law, and then Jesus said " MY yoke is light" just another example of old-new Covenant separation.

Is Law ever referred to as a "yoke" anywhere in Scripture. I honestly can't recall.
Regardless a yoke was meant to burden an animal into forcing them to do something for a desired result. Jesus' yoke that is light is saying, "you don't have to do anything to receive the desired result of salvation or improved standard before God.

Interestingly enough, there is a law that says not to yoke an ox and a donkey together. Why? Because one particular yoke won't fit on the other and the 2 are going to move and plow and separate speeds and strengths, which isn't productive at all. Those who try and mix the "yokes" of grace and obedience for obedience will find it doesn't produce the desired result of salvation. So take on Jesus' instead.

 

[Dan_473]

Just to clarify, I agree with you. I'm not defending HRM by any means. Initially I wasn't sure that plumbing and electricity were fair examples but I think you have a point with the second. After I posted in this thread last night, I researched what modern Rabbis think about using plumbing and electricity on the Sabbath. I read a few different opinions from different websites. It's interesting to read their thoughts. They consider this a valid concern and discussion ( they didn't dismiss this concern as ridiculous or petty). So, I take back my objection, haha. If the Rabbis take the time to thoughtfully address this concern, I think it's fair for us non HRM members to raise the question. It seemed like there were differing views from various Rabbis concerning modern application of these laws.

(not to derail this thread but if anyone is curious this is one site I found: VAYAKHEL-PEKUDEI: Kindling Fire on the Sabbath)

Cool! Thanks for the research

 

[notuptome]

Is Law ever referred to as a "yoke" anywhere in Scripture. I honestly can't recall.
Regardless a yoke was meant to burden an animal into forcing them to do something for a desired result. Jesus' yoke that is light is saying, "you don't have to do anything to receive the desired result of salvation or improved standard before God.

Interestingly enough, there is a law that says not to yoke an ox and a donkey together. Why? Because one particular yoke won't fit on the other and the 2 are going to move and plow and separate speeds and strengths, which isn't productive at all. Those who try and mix the "yokes" of grace and obedience for obedience will find it doesn't produce the desired result of salvation. So take on Jesus' instead.

Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The yoke is easy because Jesus is yoked together with us. It is Jesus Who has done all the work for us in our salvation. His righteousness is wholly sufficient to satisfy His Father in heaven.

Jesus bore all our burdens to Calvary. Our burden of sin was lifted from us by grace through faith.

Why do we insist on picking up a burden we cannot bear?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Magenta]

Is Law ever referred to as a "yoke" anywhere in Scripture. I honestly can't recall.

Acts 15:5-11 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them,just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

 

[KohenMatt]

Acts 15:5-11 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them,just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Thank you!

I suppose one thing I would clarify in regards to gb9's original question is that the Law referenced in Magenta's scripture is regarding a yoke of the law for the purposes of salvation. It's exactly true that using the law for salvation is a yoke we cannot and should not bare. When it comes to salvation, Jesus' yoke is indeed "light;" The Law isn't.

Otherwise, the Law as a set of ordinances is not a "yoke" that is too difficult to bare.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank you!

I suppose one thing I would clarify in regards to gb9's original question is that the Law referenced in Magenta's scripture is regarding a yoke of the law for the purposes of salvation. It's exactly true that using the law for salvation is a yoke we cannot and should not bare. When it comes to salvation, Jesus' yoke is indeed "light;" The Law isn't.

Otherwise, the Law as a set of ordinances is not a "yoke" that is too difficult to bare.

If it is not such a yoke. then why can we not keep it? Why are we still sinners? Why do people look at themselves and say they are good little law keepers. when the law still condemns them?

Seems like the yoke is removed when we look in love. (love fulfills the law) not when we look to the law.

 

[Grace777x70]

That is one of the good things about being "under the law of liberty in Christ Jesus." ( James 1:25 and 1 Cor. 8:9 and Gal.5:1 and Gal. 2:4 )

We are free to do as we choose as long as it does not become a stumbling block for another weaker believer which would not be walking in love towards them.

If we want to observe a day special or a feast or blow a horn when we feel like it - go for it.

To say that if someone else doesn't do it like it says in the law of Moses to do - than they are not obeying God - that is where the perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ comes in and that needs to be vehemently stood against.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God for salvation - mess that up and we have a powerless life trying to adhere to an old outdated covenant instead of looking for life that is in us in Christ because we are in Him only.

Galatians 6:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15[/SUP] For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

 

[Magenta]

Thank you!

I suppose one thing I would clarify in regards to gb9's original question is that the Law referenced in Magenta's scripture is regarding a yoke of the law for the purposes of salvation. It's exactly true that using the law for salvation is a yoke we cannot and should not bare. When it comes to salvation, Jesus' yoke is indeed "light;" The Law isn't.

Otherwise, the Law as a set of ordinances is not a "yoke" that is too difficult to bare.

You are welcome It is apparent to me that Peter is saying that salvation is by Grace as it always has been, that our hearts are purified by faith, which we know itself is a gift from God. Peter is pointing out that adding the law to Grace is an offense, and testing God, which obviously we are not to do. We are accepted without following the law of Moses, which was given to a specific people at a specific time pointing forward to an historical event that we now look back on. Jesus did not institute a new and better covenant only to pour His blood into an old useless wine skin that could not contain it.

 

[Dan_473]

that is Pharisee rules.
this is part of the problem. people want to associate the bad history of Pharisees and rabbinical mandates with God's law.
man-made rules are not God's law.

true!

so,

if hrm folks aren't interested in using tradition or building communities,

each hrm person decides for themselves how God's law applies to their daily activities.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, even flipping a light switch is considered work.
Weird that any could think God wants us in the dark

if you're talking about the web page PinkDiamond posted,

yes, that was fascinating... the Hebrew words for work are different than our ideas.

(not that I try to keep the law, but there is value in studying it, imo)

 

[Dan_473]

I don't have any problem with answering your questions at all never did, heres the problem and maybe you should acknowledge this, you have people who will agree with you, and you think this justifies your mockery of my faith, anyone can read your previous responses not only to me but others, your responses are not from someone who wants answers but rather from someone who thinks we need to justify our beliefs, you and others feel as weve fallen from grace, or are trying to lead folks away from our Savior, when in fact none of those things are true.

you think you can goad me into answering you in this way but I will not, if you actually want to know, without the motive to condemn of belittle then i will be glad to answer anyones questions, but the fact is all you want to do is make light of what I believe through your missapplication of the biblical text, you and others on this site have been taught lies, and have accepted the lie in place of the truth.
now if your capable of haveing a real discussion on these matters I will be glad to have it, my motive is not to convince anyone, (unlike yourself and others) all I wish to do is give answer for the faith that's in me, you and your walk and how you choose to do it, is none of my business, and just because you think you know what you have been taught to be true doesn't mean it is... so if you or anyone else here can drop your attitude thinking just because I am trying to serve and walk my savior the best I know how, is denying him or his work on the cross, then ill have a discussion, if you cant do that theres now point.

"The words of the wise are as goads"
Ecclesiastes

I certainly don't want to be wise in my own eyes, but I do think I can occaisonally use this gift "8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom"




My purpose is not to belittle what you believe, rather to show that it is wrong and very dangerous.





29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is

helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may

benefit those who listen.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph+4&version=niv

 

[Dan_473]

IMO, folks who expand certain ordinances far beyond what the ordinance actually says become more pharisetical themselves in trying to prove how pharisetical the people are who try and keep it, yet fail at their expanded ordinance.

Don't kindle a fire. Fire was meant to heat and cook. So don't start a fire to heat and cook.
Don't have anyone in your home work, family or slave. So, don't have anyone in your home work.

Pretty simple unless people want to get pharisetical about it and say, "Well certainly God meant they couldn't turn on their furnace or make the electric company employee work."

exactly! and each hrm person decides for themselves how each commandment will affect their daily activities.

 

[Dan_473]

Thank you!

I suppose one thing I would clarify in regards to gb9's original question is that the Law referenced in Magenta's scripture is regarding a yoke of the law for the purposes of salvation. It's exactly true that using the law for salvation is a yoke we cannot and should not bare. When it comes to salvation, Jesus' yoke is indeed "light;" The Law isn't.

Otherwise, the Law as a set of ordinances is not a "yoke" that is too difficult to bare.

it is true that in Acts 15,

"Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”"


but at the council, what they say is

“It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”




In the end, James summarizes not by refering to salvation, but to lifestyle

"if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well."

 

[MacBestus]

Having been following or been involved with what is now referred to colloquially as the Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM) for better than 30 years I have looked at dozens of teachers. I have rarely known any to embrace quabbalah or talmud. Those that do are usually Messianic Jews. They are NOT the same thing. Having read this thread from beginning to end I must say that few if any of the commenters has a clue about the reality of this movement or its teachings.

For background only I will let you know that I have a PhT from a prominent Southern Baptist seminary. So there is that.

That being said. Most HRM believe salvation is a free gift. The Grace doctrine is alive and well in 99 out of 100 HRM homes. They ALSO believe that reward is by merit. This belief is held as well by most mainstream proteatant denominations. So there THAT is. where the major disconnect for most Christians trying to understand HRM is simply the Nature and definition of sin. And the understanding of the teachings of Paul and Messiah on this subject.

Even in my Baptist schooling I was taught you have to read Peter In order to read Paul. So here is some Peter for you 2Peter3 starting in verse 15:

15 and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him,

16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures.

17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless,

18 but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕn.


From there you should figure out the definition of sin. 1John 3:4 has that definition in the Greek Scriptures if you do not believe in the Hebrew Scriptures. It reads as follows:

1John3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now your starting to see the base of the HRM.

Another thing you should watch is

https://youtu.be/vxiRmWqMIeE

This is a relatively new teacher who lays it out plainly with loads of (mainly) NEW TESTAMENT verses.

Perhaps the believers here could see what HRM actually believe before bearing false witness of fellow believers. Frankly I have never met a single HRM believer who discounted Messiah or put more weight on the law than Grace and I probably know many more than most folks commenting. Messiah's love and Grace to you all.

Shalom

 

[MacBestus]

When we think of observing the Law, we tend to think of Jewish people we've seen. Observant Jews almost always live in communities. They study the writings of the rabbis, a system which goes back to the Levitical priests established by the Law.

HRM people tend not to live in communities or rely on ancient Jewish interpretations.

So the weakness is that everyone decides for themselves which laws they will keep, and how they will keep them.

This is an untrue statement on a great many levels.

First of all, while some Jewish people live in Jewish areas by no means is it most. The UK and the USA are the areas I am most familiar with, and in both the majority of Jewish people live in regular mixed neighborhoods rather than "Jewish" neighborhoods.

Also, not all observent Jews study the ancient Rabbinical works. Large groups of Observant Jews use the Hebrew Scriptures found in the New Testament only. Such as the Karites.

And lastly, almost every Hebrew Roots believer tries to follow all applicable and permissible laws. Not for salvation but BECAUSE they are saved. A little reading in Romans should help you understand this better. One of the things people like to do is ask HRM believers in sarcastic tones wether they make sacrifices or would stone their children or something of the like. This merely lets the Hebrew Roots believer know the commenters lack of bible knowledge. Many laws can only be kept by priests, such as sacrifices. And even priests must use the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. Ehich does mot currently exist. There are many more such things as these. Please beloved brethren, study to show yourselves approved.

 

[CeileDe]

There was a bible study in my town and when I called to inquire about it I was basically told that members of the bible study were focused on obeying the law and I had to follow their beliefs to join it. I asked them if they just focus on this or actually study what Jesus did for us. The guy I spoke with said they do cover Jesus but focus mainly on the Law.

It is pretty sad that these groups are focusing more on the Law than Jesus.

 

[Hizikyah]

nice way to bag em and tag emm...

nothing like being judgemental towards others by the actions of some.

I wonder what you guys think of catholics with all their corruption in pedophilia? do they get thrown in a group judgement also?

 

[MacBestus]

In my opinion, the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots Movement and Sacred Name Movement is that they ignore the New Testament or cherry pick only some verses from it.

how do you go about deciding which laws to keep, and how you will keep them?

Again, i do not know where you get your information. All Hebrew Roots celebrate the WHOLE bible. And try to live it. In actuality it is people who call themselves plain Christian who disregard large sections if the book. Old Testament and New. Most especially the law.

As to what laws we decide to keep, nothing could be simpler. We start with the four given in Acts 15:20. Then we study to show ourselves approved and learn Torah. As we learn more we add in the ones we are allowed to follow. It is very easy. And commanded in Acts 15:21.

 

[MacBestus]

In my opinion, the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots Movement and Sacred Name Movement is that they ignore the New Testament or cherry pick only some verses from it.

Sadly it's a Talmudic pharisaical approach that is or will soon be watered into Calvism. Like C.ha.bad it's still rooted in kabbalism / Jewish mysticism. I say 'sadly' because they have developed a superficial hermeneutic and exegetical system that has much to teach.

(we can also learn from kabbala and Tanya and Talmud the many deceptive Jewish mystical techniques but is best left alone or to the adepts).

There was a bible study in my town and when I called to inquire about it I was basically told that members of the bible study were focused on obeying the law and I had to follow their beliefs to join it. I asked them if they just focus on this or actually study what Jesus did for us. The guy I spoke with said they do cover Jesus but focus mainly on the Law.

It is pretty sad that these groups are focusing more on the Law than Jesus.

I must say that this is an unusual group as HRM goes. The only excuse for such a statement would be if it were a Torah study class FOCUSED on teaching Torah to believers. In which case it would make sense that they would also cover Messiah even if focused on Torah, as he wrote Torah. He lived Torah. He taught Torah. Torah was ABOUT him. And Torah will be the law and way of life in the millennium. At least according to Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8.

If this is the case, you can hardly fault them for wanting to stay on task anymore than you can't fault a ballet teacher not wanting to teach tango at random intervals when people go there to learn ballet.

 

[MacBestus]

In my opinion, the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots Movement and Sacred Name Movement is that they ignore the New Testament or cherry pick only some verses from it.

Sadly it's a Talmudic pharisaical approach that is or will soon be watered into Calvism. Like C.ha.bad it's still rooted in kabbalism / Jewish mysticism. I say 'sadly' because they have developed a superficial hermeneutic and exegetical system that has much to teach.

(we can also learn from kabbala and Tanya and Talmud the many deceptive Jewish mystical techniques but is best left alone or to the adepts).

This is an untrue statement on a great many levels.

First of all, while some Jewish people live in Jewish areas by no means is it most. The UK and the USA are the areas I am most familiar with, and in both the majority of Jewish people live in regular mixed neighborhoods rather than "Jewish" neighborhoods.

Also, not all observent Jews study the ancient Rabbinical works. Large groups of Observant Jews use the Hebrew Scriptures found in the New Testament only. Such as the Karites.

And lastly, almost every Hebrew Roots believer tries to follow all applicable and permissible laws. Not for salvation but BECAUSE they are saved. A little reading in Romans should help you understand this better. One of the things people like to do is ask HRM believers in sarcastic tones wether they make sacrifices or would stone their children or something of the like. This merely lets the Hebrew Roots believer know the commenters lack of bible knowledge. Many laws can only be kept by priests, such as sacrifices. And even priests must use the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. Ehich does mot currently exist. There are many more such things as these. Please beloved brethren, study to show yourselves approved.

* should read Read Karites study Old Testament only. whoops!