Question for Hizikyah, or Others

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#21
To me it's simplified here:

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

IMO he who believes does and he who does not believe does not do, only the Messiah can say what side of that I am in.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#22
I believe in ISIS, but that doesn't make me a terrorist.

Faith is more than mere acknowledgement of existence,
but is belief to the point of placing the weight of your eternal destiny upon it.
Such belief results in change, and such Faith results in faithfulness,
and it really works, and is the word of our testimony. We overcome "by the Blood of the Lamb AND the word of our testimony".
Not contingent on works, but displayed by works,
and made living faith by living it out!
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
#23
All I know is an aorist tense verb is used and directed at the (is having everlasting life)

it shows a continual, present result based upon a past completed action...

I had eternal life the day I believed
I have eternal life now
I continual to have eternal life into the future

The use of this verb would contradict what the preacher said that you heard.......

I will also add that it is the perfect faith of Jesus that saves and justifies us before God...Galatians 2:16-21

Christ cannot deny himself and if one has truly believed it is that perfect faith of Christ that saves, justifies and seals the believer into Christ!
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#25
Faith is more than mere acknowledgement of existence,
but is belief to the point of placing the weight of your eternal destiny upon it.
Such belief results in change, and such Faith results in faithfulness,
and it really works, and is the word of our testimony. We overcome "by the Blood of the Lamb AND the word of our testimony".
Not contingent on works, but displayed by works,
and made living faith by living it out!
great explanation, thank you, I could not find the words as you did, praise Yah!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#26
This will be the only place I out MY WORDS;

"Some pass out of/through Judgement with a "white stone" some are judged and burnt up..." , for we are justified by the blood of Messiah aka Yahweh's mercy to mankind, the undeserved pardon. Our works are filthy. Im not going to sit here and say I completely understand how judgement works, because I do not, but I trust what is written is true. The rest is Scripture, please don't accuse me;

For Scripture says;

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

Revelation 20:12-13, “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before Yahweh. And the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and Death and Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged, every man, according to their works.”

"every man" is word #G1538 - hekastos
Strong's Concordance
hekastos: each, every
Original Word: ἕκαστος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hekastos
Phonetic Spelling: (hek'-as-tos)
Short Definition: each, every one
Definition: each (of more than two), every one.

Revelation 20:13

New International Version
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

New Living Translation
The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

English Standard Version
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

King James Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works.

International Standard Version
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their actions.

NET Bible
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the Sea yielded the dead which were in it, and Death and Sheol yielded the dead which were with them, and they were judged, one by one, according to their works.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The sea gave up its dead. Death and hell gave up their dead. People were judged based on what they had done.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades delivered up the dead which were in them; and the judgment of each one was according to their works.

King James 2000 Bible
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead who were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

American King James Version
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

American Standard Version
And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.

Darby Bible Translation
And the sea gave up the dead which [were] in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which [were] in them; and they were judged each according to their works:

English Revised Version
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Weymouth New Testament
Then the sea yielded up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades yielded up the dead who were in them, and each man was judged in accordance with what his conduct had been.

World English Bible
The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.

Young's Literal Translation
and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

Revelation 22:12, “And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be.”

again those are not my words but what is written, please no one attack me, if I am to be accused that would be falsehood, but we should rather talk about what is written rather then making personal accusations, not saying any will but guarding against the possibility, because when some Scripture is posted that people dont accept it happens? and im open to hear other points of view as long as they stay withing what is written? but how could we not be responsible for our actions?
nothing wrong with this.

But if you deny the word translated judgment in 1 cor is the greek word BEMA, which in the roman world was a judgment of rewards (ie the giving of rewards to the athletes in the olympic games) as apposed to the greek word Krino, which is a judgment in which one is tried, and given the penalty of a legal action according to their crimes. in other words, a judicial judgment (as used in rev 20)
then you miss the whole meaning of the text.

that is why it is sometimes hard to get the full meaning from a english text.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#27
nothing wrong with this.

But if you deny the word translated judgment in 1 cor is the greek word BEMA, which in the roman world was a judgment of rewards (ie the giving of rewards to the athletes in the olympic games) as apposed to the greek word Krino, which is a judgment in which one is tried, and given the penalty of a legal action according to their crimes. in other words, a judicial judgment (as used in rev 20)
then you miss the whole meaning of the text.

that is why it is sometimes hard to get the full meaning from a english text.
I agree and honestly have not studied deep into that particular word difference myself, but have talked about it with people before, I have no problem with that view off the basis of the whole of Scripture seems to say the same. I know I dont always word things to fully explain but that is what i meant by some pass trrough judgement and get a white stone and some get judged and get burnt to ashes.... SO i think we are on the same page just, diffenrt ways of explaining. im going to look at the exact greek now, thank you!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#28
One thing people have to remember, Salvation, Eternal life, And justification are all terms God said was given to us as a gift (not earned)

rewards (gold silver precious stone, wood hey straw, crowns etc) are things earned, and will be given at a judgment seat. (bema)

Hell is also a thing earned, and will be given at the great white throne judgment (Krino)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#29
I agree and honestly have not studied deep into that particular word difference myself, but have talked about it with people before, I have no problem with that view off the basis of the whole of Scripture seems to say the same. I know I dont always word things to fully explain but that is what i meant by some pass trrough judgement and get a white stone and some get judged and get burnt to ashes.... SO i think we are on the same page just, diffenrt ways of explaining. im going to look at the exact greek now, thank you!
maybe this will help.

the word used in rev 20:


ΚΡΙΝ́Ω [ῑ], Ep. 3 subj. κρίνησι: f. κρῐννῶ, Ep. κρῐνέω: aor. I ἔκρῑνα: pf. κέκρῐκα:—Med., f. κρῐνοῦμαι (in pass. sense): aor. I ἐκρινάμην:—Pass., f. κρῐθήσομαι: aor. I ἐκρίθην [ῐ], Ep. ἐκρίνθην: pf. κέκρῐμαι, inf. κεκρίσθαι:—Lat. cerno, to separate, part, put asunder, distinguish, Il., Xen.
II. to pick out, choose, Hom., Hdt., Att.:—Med. to pick out for oneself, choose, Hom., etc.:—Pass. to be chosen, Il.; pf. and aor. I part. κεκριμένος, κρινθείς picked out, chosen, Hom.
III. to decide disputes, Id., Hdt., etc.; σκολιὰς κρίνειν θέμιστας to judge crooked judgments, i.e. to judge unjustly, Il.; κρίνουσι βόῃ καὶ οὐ ψήφῳ they decide the question by shouting, not by voting, Thuc.; to decide a contest for a prize, Soph., etc.; κρ. τὰς θεάς to decide their contest, i.e. judge them, Eur.:—Pass. and Med., of persons, to have a contest decided, come to issue, Hom., etc.
2. to adjudge, κράτος τινί Soph.
3. to judge of, estimate, πρὸς ἐμαυτὸν κρίνων [αὐτόν] judging of him by myself, Dem.:—Pass., ἴσον παρʼ ἐμοὶ κέκριται Hdt.
4. to expound, interpret dreams, Id., Aesch., etc.: so in Med., Il.
5. c. acc. et inf. to decide or judge that, Hdt., Att.
6. c. inf. only, to determine to do a thing, N.T.
IV. to question, Soph.
2. to bring to trial, accuse, Xen., etc.:—Pass. to be brought to trial, Thuc., etc.
3. to pass sentence upon, to condemn, Soph., Dem.


Liddell, H. G. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (p. 450). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

one must wonder why two differing words were used. there is a reason.

one is a raised place where a judge sits and gives out rewards (good or bad)

the other is a judgment pronounced judicially on a person who has done wrong.


Scripture says the child born of god has passed from judgment to life. Justification is a judicial term, meaning one has been declared innocent of all wrongdoing, either by facts in evidence, or by redemptive act of someone else.

We have been redeemed by the blood of Christ, We will not experience the krinos judgment in rev 20, because we have been justified.



 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#31
I would have to go with Hizikyah on this, and will give the full usage on how pisteuo is used.

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded")believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

It is a continuation verb that leads to something, and not of receiving something right from the beginning. As it is almost always accompanied with echo;

echo

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
  1. to have, i.e. to hold
    1. to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as
  2. to have i.e. own, possess
    1. external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc.
    2. used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship
  3. to hold one's self or find one's self so and so, to be in such or such a condition
  4. to hold one's self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to
    1. to be closely joined to a person or a thing
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Those who receive eternal life/salvation the Lord makes clear who they are by what they do, as these following three scriptures show you are to do before you are to receive, as obedience comes first. The Lord is not going to give something to somebody who He knows will not obey to follow His teachings.......

Luke 6:46-47
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 
Jan 27, 2013
4,769
18
0
#32
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

strange i would have thought you would have picked up on for god so loved the world.

he gave or sent.


6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."John 14

you need jesus, to introduce you to god the father, and the father is saying you need to believe in the son to know me. (to keep it short)

i dont know how else to convey this. but the answer points to the true god.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#33
one must wonder why two differing words were used. there is a reason.
Will you point out the EXACT verses (2) that you are talking about

Rev 20 and 2 Cor? but what exact verses? If your are talking about 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Revelation 20:13 of course it's a different word because one is talking about a judgement seat (a physical seat or authority) and the other is talking about judgement (the act of carrying out the work of a judge).

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

968. béma Strong's Concordance
béma: a step, raised place, by impl. a tribunal​
Original Word: βῆμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: béma
Phonetic Spelling: (bay'-ma)
Short Definition: the space covered by a step of the foot, a tribunal
Definition: an elevated place ascended by steps, a throne, tribunal.

Revelation 20:12-13, “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before Yahweh. And the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and Death and Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged, every man, according to their works.”

2919. krinóStrong's Concordance
krinó: to judge, decide​
Original Word: κρίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: krinó
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-no)
Short Definition: I judge, decide, think good
Definition: (a) I judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, (b) I decide, I think (it) good.

2 completely different things....
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#34
Hiz, you poor kid...having your screen name in two thread titles...:rolleyes:
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#35
Thanks for your effort Brother..............from reading all you said.........I get the idea that the Preacher was correct.......that "believeth" in John 3:16 is saying "continues in belief," or, "does not stop" in belief in Jesus Christ.

Which would agree with Jesus when spoke of "endure" in Matthew.

Correct? Or did I misread your comments?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#36
Hiz, you poor kid...having your screen name in two thread titles...:rolleyes:
it np :) P_rehbein is my loving brother I know he meant no ill will, the other time.... im not so sure but IDK. TY though you are very kind!
 
Last edited:

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#37
And, as I continue to read..............people have strayed far from the intent of the OP, but that's no big surprise. They have gone directly into Theological Ideology of certain churches/groups...........

The sole intent of the OP was to focus on the ONE WORD "believeth," and it's various uses/meanings in the original text. Not to justify any Theological Ideology, or disprove any..............

From what you have Brother Hizikyah, the only way I see to have the words of Jesus agree in John and Matthew is by the usage of believeth as meaning "to continue in/never stopping."

But that's just me.............

Thank you for your efforts...............and sorry to have caught you up in argumentative ideology........

God bless
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#38
Thanks for your effort Brother..............from reading all you said.........I get the idea that the Preacher was correct.......that "believeth" in John 3:16 is saying "continues in belief," or, "does not stop" in belief in Jesus Christ.

Which would agree with Jesus when spoke of "endure" in Matthew.

Correct? Or did I misread your comments?
Yes that is my opinion 100%, I personally come to that conclusion taking the WHOLE word into consideration, as you say, "Which would agree with Jesus when spoke of "endure" in Matthew."

We must continue! This is one of my favorites concerning enduring this world and staying in Him;

Hebrews 12:3-11, "For consider Him Who endured such opposition against Himself from sinners, so that you would not become weary, and faint in your minds. You yourselves have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as unto sons: My son, do not despise the chastening of Yahweh, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom Yahweh loves, He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, Yahweh deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons. Furthermore, we have had fleshly fathers who corrected us, and we gave them reverence; should we not even more be subject to Father Yahweh, and live? For they truly chastened us for a few days as they thought best; but He, for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful at the present time, but grievous; nevertheless, afterward it produces the peaceable fruit of righteousness, that is, for those who have been trained by it"

Hebrews 12:12-17, "Therefore, strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And follow the straight paths made for your feet, so that the lame may not be turned out of the way, but rather may be healed. Follow peace with all men; and holiness, without which no one will see Yahweh: Searching diligently, so that no one falls short of the honor of Yahweh; so that no root of bitterness grows up to cause trouble--for because of this, many are defiled; So that there is no a, fornicator nor profane person, like Esau, Who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no way for repentance, though with tears sought it out."
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#39
:) agreed........

Thanks for reminding me of Hebrews 12:3...........................................had not remembered it in this context.......but it certainly goes hand in hand..........God bless........

(will avoid any argumentative commentary............)
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#40
:) agreed........

Thanks for reminding me of Hebrews 12:3...........................................had not remembered it in this context.......but it certainly goes hand in hand..........God bless........

(will avoid any argumentative commentary............)
I meant that generally not that passage is directly but I seen it as cause effect type thing, just to clarify, that I dint mean it in a direct meaning. SO probably no disagreement, just didnt explain fully! and to agree with you not to disagree.