Question to those who believes the spirit does not survive the death of the body.

[danschance]

Jesus is not telling a story that includes false doctrines. It may sound like it to you but that is why it is parabolic. Jesus is not teaching that a dead person sprit can survive death he is teaching just the opposite! When the non elect dies they are dead dead period. Hell is the Grave. To go to the grave is to go to hell. Hell is not a physical place were God tortures you forever and ever watching you gnaw your tongue and weep and curse while worms cover you and eat you slowly but never fully consuming you. That doctrine is from the mind of men. God is infinity more merciful to the lost than man himself.
Lu 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Ps 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Mr 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Eze 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

If hell = grave, as you claim, then why did Jesus tell a story that says hell is a place of torment ?

24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ Luke 16:24

Why would Jesus tell a story that has Abraham speaking to others is he had been dead for centuries?

This whole story except for the first sentence or two is all about life after death and the grave is never even mentioned in it! Why would Jesus tell a story of hell being a place of torment and not the grave?

 

[danschance]

Last reply on this, Lord help them with understanding if you will it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Using the bible to insult or disparage others is not a godly thing to do. I want you to know I forgive you.

Too bad you can not or will not answer my simple humble little question of "Why would Jesus tell a story of life after death if this is false doctrine, as some believe?".

"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Matt. 7:2

 

[Ichabod]

Skeptics would just say "How do we even know Jesus actually spoke those words?"
They might also say it's just a belief not knowledge.

 

[reject-tech]

Originally Posted by reject-tech

For me it's a time waster not to move away from the argument of yes or no.

Unless someone thinks they can talk to their dead loved ones, or that they they can interfere with the living, neither of which I see in scripture -
then absolutely what difference does it make? It proves no point useful for salvation either way to me.
I myself don't bother with it and believe way too many people waste a lot of brain power and study time "touching corpses"

If Jesus spoke of literal dead people, He contradicted Himself in three ways on the topic -
Mindless
Asleep
Conscious

If Jesus spoke of people being both physically alive and spiritually dead at the same time, then it makes more sense to me.
If we touch a corpse, we are unclean until we wash in ash water and put the issue to rest.

The vast majority of Christians do not follow the Mosaic laws. Not even sure why you would mention communicating with the dead when that is forbidden in scripture. Your post does not answer my question.

Sorry then, to be more clear, the rich man in the parable is requesting that the dead Lazarus either communicate to the living, or be sent back to communicate with the living. That's why I mentioned the belief that some people have that communication with the dead is possible.

I believe the great chasm is the inability to undo a certain part of one's past.
The rich man can never forget his blasphemy - the hot tongue, all the things he said against God.
Out of all the things he is experiencing, the part that bothers him the most is his past blasphemy, and he yearns for just a smidgen of relief.
When a person realizes that he has blasphemed God, he is "dead" in it. It is a done deal. He can never forget that he did it, in that way, it is unforgiven. That's his "torment", and he has done it to himself, God doesn't do it to him.
Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, that is, written in the Lamb's book of life, never having blasphemed God in his heart.
He never believed God was a man-like criminal.
And I believe people are a lot more innocent than what is on the surface on this issue. I believe it's difficult for a person to really grasp and execute a genuine blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because they must know better before they do it.

 

[danschance]

Sorry then, to be more clear, the rich man in the parable is requesting that the dead Lazarus either communicate to the living, or be sent back to communicate with the living. That's why I mentioned the belief that some people have that communication with the dead is possible.

I believe the great chasm is the inability to undo a certain part of one's past.
The rich man can never forget his blasphemy - the hot tongue, all the things he said against God.
Out of all the things he is experiencing, the part that bothers him the most is his past blasphemy, and he yearns for just a smidgen of relief.
When a person realizes that he has blasphemed God, he is "dead" in it. It is a done deal. He can never forget that he did it, in that way, it is unforgiven. That's his "torment", and he has done it to himself, God doesn't do it to him.
Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, that is, written in the Lamb's book of life, never having blasphemed God in his heart.
He never believed God was a man-like criminal.
And I believe people are a lot more innocent than what is on the surface on this issue. I believe it's difficult for a person to really grasp and execute a genuine blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because they must know better before they do it.

I didn't see the answer I was hoping for: Why would Jesus tell a story about life after death if this is false doctrine, as you believe?

 

[danschance]

Sorry then, to be more clear, the rich man in the parable is requesting that the dead Lazarus either communicate to the living, or be sent back to communicate with the living. That's why I mentioned the belief that some people have that communication with the dead is possible.

I believe the great chasm is the inability to undo a certain part of one's past.
The rich man can never forget his blasphemy - the hot tongue, all the things he said against God.
Out of all the things he is experiencing, the part that bothers him the most is his past blasphemy, and he yearns for just a smidgen of relief.
When a person realizes that he has blasphemed God, he is "dead" in it. It is a done deal. He can never forget that he did it, in that way, it is unforgiven. That's his "torment", and he has done it to himself, God doesn't do it to him.
Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, that is, written in the Lamb's book of life, never having blasphemed God in his heart.
He never believed God was a man-like criminal.
And I believe people are a lot more innocent than what is on the surface on this issue. I believe it's difficult for a person to really grasp and execute a genuine blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because they must know better before they do it.

I believe the great chasm is the inability to undo a certain part of one's past.

The quote above is a guess. It is your own opinion that can not be substantiated. Now I know you feel this story is all allegory but why do you think this? Is it because you believe the spirit of man is sleeping or annihilated? Does that mean your doctrinal views dictate that this can not be a real story?

 

[danschance]

Skeptics would just say "How do we even know Jesus actually spoke those words?"
They might also say it's just a belief not knowledge.

This thread is a discussion about the after life and a story in the bible. It is not about the veracity of the bible. Maybe you can start you own thread on this topic?

 

[Laodicea]

It has been answered but because it is not the answer you want you keep on asking thinking it has not been answered. Doctrine is based on many verses not one. There are many verses which show people are rewarded when Jesus returns not when they die. So we need to understand the symbols of the parable. It is clear from the context of Luke 16 the rich man is the Pharisees.

From the context of Luke 16, not just the parable on its own.
Luke 16:1 KJV(1) And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luke 16:19 KJV
(19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luke 16:14 KJV
(14) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.


Why is Abraham mentioned?
Luke 3:8 KJV
(8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
John 8:39 KJV
(39) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Luke 16:24 KJV
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

So Jesus is teaching them they will not be saved because they think Abraham is their father, they are not God's chosen people because they they think Abraham is their father. We are saved because we belong to Christ, we are God's people because we belong to Christ, not because we belong to a denomination.

 

[Laodicea]

What is the name of the rich man and Lazarus in the parable? People need to read the context of the parable from Luke 15. Jesus tells one parable after the other, Luke 16 is a continuation of 15 as there were no chapter divisions in the original.

As people read the context answer this:~Why is Jesus telling these parables? Who is He speaking to?

 

[J-Kay]

Hear the wonderful words of the Savior, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise”. This man’s wait to be in Paradise with Jesus was not subject to the falsehood of Purgatory, nor was it dependent on water baptism. His reward for the acceptance of the atoning blood of Christ, the perfect Lamb, was to be immediate. That very day, he was to be with the Savior in Paradise. He would go from condemnation to coronation, all in the same day. He only had a moment to decide, you may have more time, or you may have less time.

 

[danschance]

What is the name of the rich man and Lazarus in the parable?

I mentioned why the rich man is un-named before in another thread. Here is why he is un-named:

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The workers of iniquity are not "known" in any personal way to Jesus. This is why in scripture some are named and others are not.

 

[J-Kay]

I mentioned why the rich man is un-named before in another thread. Here is why he is un-named:


The workers of iniquity are not "known" in any personal way to Jesus. This is why in scripture some are named and others are not.

Wow, food for thought ~ I had never thought of that before.
To know someone, is to be intimate enough to know who they are
and being connected ~ Not knowing is ... well... not knowing ~

 

[danschance]

It has been answered but because it is not the answer you want you keep on asking thinking it has not been answered. Doctrine is based on many verses not one. There are many verses which show people are rewarded when Jesus returns not when they die. So we need to understand the symbols of the parable. It is clear from the context of Luke 16 the rich man is the Pharisees.

From the context of Luke 16, not just the parable on its own.
Luke 16:1 KJV(1) And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luke 16:19 KJV
(19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luke 16:14 KJV
(14) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.


Why is Abraham mentioned?
Luke 3:8 KJV
(8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
John 8:39 KJV
(39) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Luke 16:24 KJV
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

So Jesus is teaching them they will not be saved because they think Abraham is their father, they are not God's chosen people because they they think Abraham is their father. We are saved because we belong to Christ, we are God's people because we belong to Christ, not because we belong to a denomination.

I keep on asking you about apples but you tell me about oranges and then claim you answered my question. This is false. You never dealt with my question. Instead you post about how this is a parable which must be allegory. My question is not if this is a real life story or is it a parable.

I am asking about why Jesus would even tell a story/parable/fable or whatever you wish to call it, about life after death as you claim, this is false theology. It seems obvious to me you are not able or not willing to attempt to answer my question, as I have asked you this same questions a half dozen times. I feel like you are obfuscating and don't even want to deal with it.

So if this is a parable and it is all allegory then why would Jesus include life after death, where three persons are fully conscious, alert and interacting with each other--after they had all died, if this is false doctrine, as you believe?

 

[danschance]

Wow, food for thought ~ I had never thought of that before.
To know someone, is to be intimate enough to know who they are
and being connected ~ Not knowing is ... well... not knowing ~

Exactly. Jesus intimately is in a relationship with his followers. He knows us all and knows all about us. But he refuses to have a relationship with who reject Him.

 

[limbo]

Maybe we are not understanding that scripture correctly. Could it be really saying...

Matt 16:27
For the Son of man (Christ) shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he (Christ) shall reward every man according to his (Christ) works.

 

[BeanieD]

If our spirits died with our bodies, then what is eternal life all about? Our spirits will sleep

 

[danschance]

In context, Matt. 16:27 is referring to humans on earth as He returns. Then they will all be sorted out. Th righteous will receive their reward and the rest go to damnation. Those in Heaven now and those in Hell now have their reward.

 

[limbo]

Because it is figurative language of the awfulness of death. The wages of sin is death. NOT The wages of sin is torment. God does not torment. The Hebrew word strong’s # 07585 grave is used 31, times in the OT and that same word is used as hell 31 times also in the OT. The word hell and grave is the same Hebrew word. Interesting is it not?
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; The rich man was in the grave dead and buried”. Were did he get his eyes to see. Do you know of anyone who is dead and can still see with his eyes from the grave?
Look at this scripture in Ac 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. This is a historical story with figurative language saying he was shamed, he really wasn’t eaten by worms not to mention he lost his soul. He was dead in body and soul.
Hell is the grave and the grave is hell. When you’re dead your dead for evermore.

 

[Hizikyah]

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

My view on this is it's a parable, so the entire point is to use the story to metaphorically teach a truth.

What I got from this parable is:

One better get right with Yahweh while they are still living, by seeking Him through prayer and His word, and if that is not enough they are lost.

IMO anything else in the parable is irrelavant, it is only the main point of it that matters. You know the parable with the ten virgins? Who maries ten women at the same time? Even with multiple wives I dont think anybody (following Yahweh) could have married ten women at once, except maybe Solomon???? Anyway the point is about the message not the mataphor told.

And yes I believe none are raised, or get "spirit bodies" until Yahshua's return.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

Strange how you answered so much but not a thing about my question. A parable is a story. Why spend so much time one answering everything except what I asked?

Please respond to my question. Why did Jesus tell a story that included human spirits surviving death if this is false theology?

Keep in mind, I believe the bible has no false theology in it.

ITs a parable, every part of a parable doesnt have to be "perfect" it is a METAPHOR used to tell a story.

Again, Does Yahshua only marry literal virgins who literally have a lamp with oil in it? No they are ALL SYMBOLIC, its no different with this parable than any.

 

[danschance]

Because it is figurative language of the awfulness of death. The wages of sin is death. NOT The wages of sin is torment. God does not torment. The Hebrew word strong’s # 07585 grave is used 31, times in the OT and that same word is used as hell 31 times also in the OT. The word hell and grave is the same Hebrew word. Interesting is it not?
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; The rich man was in the grave dead and buried”. Were did he get his eyes to see. Do you know of anyone who is dead and can still see with his eyes from the grave?
Look at this scripture in Ac 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. This is a historical story with figurative language saying he was shamed, he really wasn’t eaten by worms not to mention he lost his soul. He was dead in body and soul.
Hell is the grave and the grave is hell. When you’re dead your dead for evermore.

Because it is figurative language of the awfulness of death.

This incomplete sentence assumes it is figurative with no explanation at how you arrived at this conclusion. Sorry but this concludes nothing.

God does not torment.

I wonder how you came to this conclusion? Do you recall Job? His life became torment and God allowed it.

And whenever the tormenting spirit from God troubled Saul, David would play the harp. Then Saul would feel better, and the tormenting spirit would go away. 1Samuel 16:23 NLT

This tormenting spirit came from God. So I think your conclusion that God does not torment is wrong.

The word hell and grave is the same Hebrew word. Interesting is it not?

And your point is?

Were did he get his eyes to see. Do you know of anyone who is dead and can still see with his eyes from the grave?

The story of Lazarus the beggar is about life after and apart from the body. I can only conclude they did see without a body.

...he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. Luke 16:23

Hebrew we read that they can see with out a body. Demons have no body and they can see. This proves your argument does not stand.

Hell is the grave and the grave is hell. When you’re dead your dead for evermore.

Here again you make conclusions that are false. You seem to have over looked that this story is all about people who have died and yet continued on past death. Life after is the main theme in this story and you did not even mention it.