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D
Dear brother Dan,
May our God & Savior Jesus Christ grant us to learn from Him as we consider what are errors of mortals.
1. "Soul sleep" and "Annihilation of the soul" are not the same concept, neither are those ideas practiced by the same group of people.
2. "Soul sleep" is the belief among Seventh Day Adventist, who DO believe in the Holy Trinity and believe the full truth of the deity of Jesus Christ.
3. "Soul sleep" is the belief that upon death, the body decays in the grave, but the soul doesn't yet "return to God Who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). Instead, the soul, literally, continues to exist "asleep" in the grave (or somewhere not heaven; see Job 14, Psalm 49:15) until the resurrection at the "advent" or return of Christ.
4. "Annihilation of the soul" is the erroneous belief among Jehovah Witnesses and Christadelphians, who DO NOT believe in the Holy Trinity AND DENY the deity of Jesus Christ. That in itself is a very good indicator where the "annihilation" thought is heading!
5. "Annihilation" is the reprobate idea that upon death of the body, the soul, literally, ceases to exist ever again. In other words, that "person" is poof! gone forever. They erroneously believe that God will recreate other people with a different soul (since the previous soul went poof!), and all this recreation will happen when God repopulates the new Earth.
6. "Annihilation" is a blend of Hinduism reincarnation with Judeo-Christian thought; hence, the importance of why those folks rely on "works" to buster their salvation.
7. As for Lazarus and the Rich man, whether that passage of Scripture is a parable or not, it remains a legitimately valid part of Holy Scripture, and the passage should carry the same weight as the rest of the holy thoughts Jesus spoke.
The Lord is good and faithful is He who calls us.
May our God & Savior Jesus Christ grant us to learn from Him as we consider what are errors of mortals.
1. "Soul sleep" and "Annihilation of the soul" are not the same concept, neither are those ideas practiced by the same group of people.
2. "Soul sleep" is the belief among Seventh Day Adventist, who DO believe in the Holy Trinity and believe the full truth of the deity of Jesus Christ.
3. "Soul sleep" is the belief that upon death, the body decays in the grave, but the soul doesn't yet "return to God Who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). Instead, the soul, literally, continues to exist "asleep" in the grave (or somewhere not heaven; see Job 14, Psalm 49:15) until the resurrection at the "advent" or return of Christ.
4. "Annihilation of the soul" is the erroneous belief among Jehovah Witnesses and Christadelphians, who DO NOT believe in the Holy Trinity AND DENY the deity of Jesus Christ. That in itself is a very good indicator where the "annihilation" thought is heading!
5. "Annihilation" is the reprobate idea that upon death of the body, the soul, literally, ceases to exist ever again. In other words, that "person" is poof! gone forever. They erroneously believe that God will recreate other people with a different soul (since the previous soul went poof!), and all this recreation will happen when God repopulates the new Earth.
6. "Annihilation" is a blend of Hinduism reincarnation with Judeo-Christian thought; hence, the importance of why those folks rely on "works" to buster their salvation.
7. As for Lazarus and the Rich man, whether that passage of Scripture is a parable or not, it remains a legitimately valid part of Holy Scripture, and the passage should carry the same weight as the rest of the holy thoughts Jesus spoke.
The Lord is good and faithful is He who calls us.
Thank you for defining things better. Still the main question remains. If man does not become conscious and alert upon death, as some believe (not me though), then why would Jesus tell thins story or parable that includes humans surviving death and being conscious and alert if (as some believe) this is not so?
This question is directed to those who believe the spirit of man dies or sleeps when the body dies. I believe we will become aware the moment we die.
L
[FONT="] Matthew 16:27[/FONT][FONT="]
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and [/FONT][FONT="]then he shall reward every man [/FONT][FONT="]according to his works.
[/FONT]Why would Jesus tell a story that people are rewarded at death when He said they are rewarded when He returns?
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and [/FONT][FONT="]then he shall reward every man [/FONT][FONT="]according to his works.
[/FONT]Why would Jesus tell a story that people are rewarded at death when He said they are rewarded when He returns?
S
Brother,
Dead people getting up and going to heaven or hell immediately is a theory which was not there in the times of Jesus Christ. They used to believe the scripture. They never believed in that, but believed the scripture when it said
Jb 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Jb 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
They believed these verses. They did not have pastors r leaders telling them that they will burn in fire soon after they die. So the disciples did not find it strange in listening to the story because they knew it was not real. Jesus did not mind it because there is no such theory taught anywhere to bring confusion.
Suppose if we had a denomination which believes in cutting their parts of the body that sinned, will not be this a false doctine??
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Some will say "it is a real thing, we have to cut our foot, pluck our eyes, Jesus said so"....and the others will say "u know, we should not be taking it literally". Did Jesus really wanted to see his people cutting their body parts and suffer? Of course not, but he said it. because he always speak like that, thru parables, figure of speech, methaphor.....etc.
Dead people getting up and going to heaven or hell immediately is a theory which was not there in the times of Jesus Christ. They used to believe the scripture. They never believed in that, but believed the scripture when it said
Jb 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Jb 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
They believed these verses. They did not have pastors r leaders telling them that they will burn in fire soon after they die. So the disciples did not find it strange in listening to the story because they knew it was not real. Jesus did not mind it because there is no such theory taught anywhere to bring confusion.
Suppose if we had a denomination which believes in cutting their parts of the body that sinned, will not be this a false doctine??
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Some will say "it is a real thing, we have to cut our foot, pluck our eyes, Jesus said so"....and the others will say "u know, we should not be taking it literally". Did Jesus really wanted to see his people cutting their body parts and suffer? Of course not, but he said it. because he always speak like that, thru parables, figure of speech, methaphor.....etc.
S
Yeah....that is a very good point. Its like sentencing without judgment.He has been sentenced without being judged!This man could not have been judged, because when our Lord spoke this parable, "The Judgment" was yet future.
"Verily, I am saying to you, More tolerable will it be for the land of Sodom and the land of Gomorrah in that DAY OF JUDGING than for that city." (Matt. 10:15)
"Men, Ninevites, will be rising in the judging with this generation and will be condemning it..." (Mat. 12:41)
The "evil" men of Sodom have not yet been judged. The "righteous" men of Nineveh have not yet risen or been judged. But rich man and Lazarus is judged??? Impossible
"Verily, I am saying to you, More tolerable will it be for the land of Sodom and the land of Gomorrah in that DAY OF JUDGING than for that city." (Matt. 10:15)
"Men, Ninevites, will be rising in the judging with this generation and will be condemning it..." (Mat. 12:41)
The "evil" men of Sodom have not yet been judged. The "righteous" men of Nineveh have not yet risen or been judged. But rich man and Lazarus is judged??? Impossible
S
Only if we think with our carnal mind.....if u r a believer who considers bible to be literal i'm sure you would have already done this
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Are we to take it literally or figuratively????
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Are we to take it literally or figuratively????
D
So what are you saying? Did Jesus make a mistake when He told a story of souls in the after life if this is not so? My original question still remains unanswered. I can only assume you have no answer for this question as you seem to only answer it with more questions. For your own sake, I hope you will try to answer it.
L
I have an answer and unless you can answer this question for yourself then what you are teaching is making it look as though Jesus contradicted Himself. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/73317-rich-man-lazarus-6.html#post1213747 This is a good answer
D
Laodicea, Keep in mind Jesus never makes a mistake of any kind. He is God. Need I defend Him further?
Jesus Told a story about life after death for at least three men in the story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man. Why would He say such a story about life after death if it is not true?
I would appreciate an answer in your own words, if you wish.
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L
So you are basing a whole doctrine on one or two texts? Why are you ignoring the other texts that are in the Bible, like the ones where Jesus said people are rewarded when He returns? If people are rewarded when He returns as Jesus said then people are not judged before. People cannot go to heaven or hell before He returns according to what Jesus said.
Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Why would Jesus tell a story that people are rewarded at death when He said they are rewarded when He returns? This shows that the parable is not teaching people go to heaven or hell before He returns again.
Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Why would Jesus tell a story that people are rewarded at death when He said they are rewarded when He returns? This shows that the parable is not teaching people go to heaven or hell before He returns again.
S
Lk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Does this verse make sense brother. It is from the parable of the prodigal son. The father s telling his son died and is alive again. Did the son die in the story? If dead how can he come into life again? He could have just said "he was lost and is found".but why did he say died and alive again?
Now if we have denominations teaching that men can come to life back from death, this also would have been a topic to discuss.
Does this verse make sense brother. It is from the parable of the prodigal son. The father s telling his son died and is alive again. Did the son die in the story? If dead how can he come into life again? He could have just said "he was lost and is found".but why did he say died and alive again?
Now if we have denominations teaching that men can come to life back from death, this also would have been a topic to discuss.
D
Actually, it is the topic I am discussing. If a person dies and ceases to exist physically and they do not survive death, then how is it that Jesus tells a story/parable of people who survive death? This I what I have been trying to discuss. If you wish to discuss the parable of the prodigal son, that is fine. But keep in mind it is not what I am asking for.
If you have any questions, please look at my first post.
Wanna show me some scripture for this? And while you are at it, maybe explain...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
L
Jesus is not telling a story that includes false doctrines. It may sound like it to you but that is why it is parabolic. Jesus is not teaching that a dead person sprit can survive death he is teaching just the opposite! When the non elect dies they are dead dead period. Hell is the Grave. To go to the grave is to go to hell. Hell is not a physical place were God tortures you forever and ever watching you gnaw your tongue and weep and curse while worms cover you and eat you slowly but never fully consuming you. That doctrine is from the mind of men. God is infinity more merciful to the lost than man himself.
Lu 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Ps 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Mr 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Eze 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;
Lu 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Ps 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Mr 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Eze 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;
O
Last reply on this, Lord help them with understanding if you will it.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.