Questions and doubts

[JairCrawford]

To be honest we are delving into understandings that any mere mortal will not be able to fully wrap their minds around. Not because things like evil and suffering cannot be explained, but because we are trying to understand very deep characteristics of God, and how He works in certain ways which are infinitely beyond our comprehension. Such as how He is omniscient and omnipotent yet He gives us free will. It's a paradox to us, but not to Him.

All that being said, the question of "Why would God create us if He knew we would sin and enter our own suffering because of it?" Not an easy question to answer but lets start it off with this: if He didn't, then we wouldn't even exist. There would be nothing.

 

[beta]

Eve was tricked and lied to by satan in the serpent. Satan told a half truth and made Eve doubt God thinking God and withheld something from her and Adam which was the knowledge of good and evil that satan painted as something desirable to know about.

She should have listened and obeyed God's instruction but she chose not to do so.

I am inclined to think that Adam and Eve just gave way to their 'natural instincts when confronted with 'visual temptation'....rather than them making a 'deliberate choice to disobey God....
a DELiberate choice would have had even more serious consequences than those that folloed, bad as they are.

 

[beta]

To be honest we are delving into understandings that any mere mortal will not be able to fully wrap their minds around. Not because things like evil and suffering cannot be explained, but because we are trying to understand very deep characteristics of God, and how He works in certain ways which are infinitely beyond our comprehension. Such as how He is omniscient and omnipotent yet He gives us free will. It's a paradox to us, but not to Him.

All that being said, the question of "Why would God create us if He knew we would sin and enter our own suffering because of it?" Not an easy question to answer but lets start it off with this: if He didn't, then we wouldn't even exist. There would be nothing.

Yes agreed...but let's remember that there are 2 states/conditions affecting us...good and evil.... and man must experience both in order to differentiate between and eventually,hopefully make the right choice. God wants man to 'learn this lesson, have this experience of both states to the full !!! God wants perfection and that can only happen when all requirements have been 'fulfilled'.

 

[trofimus]

I read this book when I was still looking for an answer.
Of course, the answer is not in this book either.

You said in the next to last paragraph that God did not intend for us to experience pain and grief.
So, if we are, it comes to mean that He is not omnipotent OR omniscient !
Do you see the problem?
All we could do is accept that we can't know.
If we understood everything about God, we'd be God!

Try to read Theodicy by Gottfried W. Leibniz.

The best book about these issues I have ever read.

 

[LittleGirl]

waaaait a minute


am i missing something?

Of course you are...but WHAT?

This is just something to think about...

 

[LittleGirl]

Try to read Theodicy by Gottfried W. Leibniz.

The best book about these issues I have ever read.

Thanks trofimus.
Will do.

I just want to say that this used to bother me a lot when I was a new Christian .
It's good , in my opinion---i may be wrong , to bring it up every now and then.
Sometimes we get too comfortable about our knowledge of God and it's good to remember that we don't know everything about Him.

Do you think this is wrong?

Will get the book.

 

[LittleGirl]

Have you read Gen1-2-3 ? don'tyou know about the temptation and disobedience ? how satan tricked Eve and Adam could'nt say 'no' to Eve being obviously enamoured by her beauty (understandibly)....he was just a natural man.

Hi beta

If the fruit had to be eaten to have sin enter, and with it the sin nature...

And Eve had not eaten it yet when the serpent appeared,

Then WHAT made her eat it?

 

[LittleGirl]

1. Those are two entirely different questions.

The issue of where evil comes from is an entirely different question than why God allows it to continue.


2. Just because YOU aren't happy with any answer, doesn't mean no answers exist.


3. Traditionally, the question of where evil comes from is a much more difficult than the question of why God allows it to continue.
- One of these is considered very difficult.
- One of these is considered very simple.

* Both of these have reasonable explanations.


4. If Both of these questions have explanations, but you don't LIKE the explanations... that doesn't magically make the explanations disappear.

OK so let's say we know where evil got started...
Why did an all good and loving God Allow it to get started?

So now it's started. OK
Why doesn't He at least stop it now?

You see Maxwel, if you've never really pondered this it seems like two questions but if you had the answer to one, you'd have the answer to the other.

And my ponderings do not reflect any bad feelings toward God as one poster incorrectly stated.
I love God and accept His attributes .

 

[LittleGirl]

Lucifer had a high position one of the top angels next to God and he was created beautiful and became prideful and wanted God's position. He convinced 1/3 of the angels to his way of thinking and they were banished from heaven.

Isaiah 14:
12"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
13"But you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'…

Revelation 12:
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[SUP][a][/SUP] in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Pride, as you must know, is one of the main feelings that cause one to sin.
So did God create pride so we could sin?
See Jesus Lives,,,there's no end to this.

 

[trofimus]

Thanks trofimus.
Will do.

I just want to say that this used to bother me a lot when I was a new Christian .
It's good , in my opinion---i may be wrong , to bring it up every now and then.
Sometimes we get too comfortable about our knowledge of God and it's good to remember that we don't know everything about Him.

Do you think this is wrong?

Will get the book.

Its even online, but I recommend to get in in paper, it needs more concentration for reading than just "scrolling in computer window".

We cannot know everything about Him, because He is undending and we are not.

But He has given us logic, experiences, mathematics, orders in nature, cosmological laws, Scriptures etc to get at least general answers to many questions.

 

[trofimus]

OK so let's say we know where evil got started...
Why did an all good and loving God Allow it to get started?

So now it's started. OK
Why doesn't He at least stop it now?

You see Maxwel, if you've never really pondered this it seems like two questions but if you had the answer to one, you'd have the answer to the other.

And my ponderings do not reflect any bad feelings toward God as one poster incorrectly stated.
I love God and accept His attributes .

Because its the part of the best possible world. He decided to create a world that contains as much evil as is necessary to be the best world possible.

Not a bit more.

 

[LittleGirl]

Because its the part of the best possible world. He decided to create a world that contains as much evil as is necessary to be the best world possible.

Not a bit more.

I have a new thought on this subject, but it's complicated and I'm not sure I could even explain it yet.

BTW, I like real books better!
For the very reason you stated.

 

[trofimus]

I have a new thought on this subject, but it's complicated and I'm not sure I could even explain it yet.

BTW, I like real books better!
For the very reason you stated.

OK, now, when we agreed that it needs to be printed, here is the link so that you can at least get an idea what you want to buy:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17147/17147-h/17147-h.htm#page49

I strongly recommend not to read the editors introduction, its useless, too long and sometimes wrong. The book itself begins by "PREFACE".

 

[LittleGirl]

OK, now, when we agreed that it needs to be printed, here is the link so that you can at least get an idea what you want to buy:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17147/17147-h/17147-h.htm#page49

I strongly recommend not to read the editors introduction, its useless, too long and sometimes wrong. The book itself begins by "PREFACE".

I already found it on amazon.
about 10. softcover.
This is the one underneath...
Will have it by the end of this week.
Please let me know it it's not the right one.

 

[trofimus]

I already found it on amazon.
about 10. softcover.
This is the one underneath...
Will have it by the end of this week.
Please let me know it it's not the right one.

I am not native English speaker, so my print is in Czech, not in English.

I cannot tell you if this or that English print is the best one.

But if you are asking if this is the work of Leibniz I am talking about, then yes.

 

[LittleGirl]

I am not native English speaker, so my print is in Czech, not in English.

I cannot tell you if this or that English print is the best one.

But if you are asking if this is the work of Leibniz I am talking about, then yes.

Yes. I'm sure there can't be two almost the same!
You speak excellent English. Like a native. I'm truly surprised that it's your second language.
Thanks again!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I read this book when I was still looking for an answer.
Of course, the answer is not in this book either.

You said in the next to last paragraph that God did not intend for us to experience pain and grief.
So, if we are, it comes to mean that He is not omnipotent OR omniscient !
Do you see the problem?
All we could do is accept that we can't know.
If we understood everything about God, we'd be God!

You have been given the answers you are looking for. it seems you just choose to remain ignorant or argumentative.

God did not "intend" - design or destine - man to disobey. That was man's choice. I see no problem. God left us His word so that we can know Him . . . His word shows us His heart (Psalm 33:11). If God purposed, designed, or desired for man to sin . . . then He is not just by telling us NOT to sin.

"Suffering is ultimately caused by sin. In some cases suffering is the result of one's own sin. In others, it is the result of someone else's sin. But in many cases, it is simply the result of living in a fallen, sinful world."

 

[trofimus]

Yes. I'm sure there can't be two almost the same!
You speak excellent English. Like a native. I'm truly surprised that it's your second language.
Thanks again!

Thank you.

I hope that this book will be useful to you and will answer your questions.

Or will give you more possibilities to choose from, at least.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Hi beta

If the fruit had to be eaten to have sin enter, and with it the sin nature...

And Eve had not eaten it yet when the serpent appeared,

Then WHAT made her eat it?

Here are the steps in which Satan deceived Eve - 1) Satan made her question what God had said - Yea, has God said, you shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2) She started to consider what Satan had said 3) She omitted a word (changed God's word) - We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. Omitted "freely". 4) She added a word (changed God's word again) . . . God has said, you shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die. Added "touch" 5) Then Satan outright lied to her about what God said - You shall not surely die . . . You shall be as gods . . .

Above is how each and every person is deceived . . . Eve listened to Satan, she considered what he said - she saw that the tree was good for food . . . it was pleasant to the eyes . . . a tree to make one wise . . . so she took of it and did eat.

Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished brings forth death. James 1:14,15

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Of course you are...but WHAT?

This is just something to think about...

im starting to feel like you might not be the little girl in that picture


but no need to go over this any more

the original question is clear as day to me
and i dont see it as a problem

and i hope you find the answers youre looking for