Questions and doubts
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1. Those are two entirely different questions.
The issue of where evil comes from is an entirely different question than why God allows it to continue.
2. Just because YOU aren't happy with any answer, doesn't mean no answers exist.
3. Traditionally, the question of where evil comes from is a much more difficult than the question of why God allows it to continue.
- One of these is considered very difficult.
- One of these is considered very simple.
* Both of these have reasonable explanations.
4. If Both of these questions have explanations, but you don't LIKE the explanations... that doesn't magically make the explanations disappear.
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The ontology of evil is NOT the original question of the OP.
The OP was questioning why God allows evil to continue... not where evil comes from.
* Usually if we want to discuss a DIFFERENT question than that of the OP, we start a new thread.
* If you really want to discuss the ontology of evil, we need to start a new thread, and the first thing YOU will have to do is prove that evil actually has any ontological status at all.
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The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil and desires to prevent evil, why does He still allow evil? Perhaps a practical way to look at this question would be to consider some alternative ways people might have God run the world:
1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.
Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.
2) God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.
While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?
3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.
Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42).
In summary, we live in a real world where our good and evil actions have direct consequences and indirect consequences upon us and those around us. God’s desire is that for all of our sakes we would obey Him that it might be well with us (Deuteronomy 5:29). Instead, what happens is that we choose our own way, and then we blame God for not doing anything about it. Such is the heart of sinful man. But Jesus came to change men’s hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit, and He does this for those who will turn from evil and call on Him to save them from their sin and its consequences (2 Corinthians 5:17). God does prevent and restrain some acts of evil. This world would be MUCH WORSE were not God restraining evil. At the same time, God has given us the ability to choose good and evil, and when we choose evil, He allows us, and those around us, to suffer the consequences of evil. Rather than blaming God and questioning God on why He does not prevent all evil, we should be about the business of proclaiming the cure for evil and its consequences—Jesus Christ! https://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-evil.html
1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.
Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.
2) God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.
While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?
3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.
Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42).
In summary, we live in a real world where our good and evil actions have direct consequences and indirect consequences upon us and those around us. God’s desire is that for all of our sakes we would obey Him that it might be well with us (Deuteronomy 5:29). Instead, what happens is that we choose our own way, and then we blame God for not doing anything about it. Such is the heart of sinful man. But Jesus came to change men’s hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit, and He does this for those who will turn from evil and call on Him to save them from their sin and its consequences (2 Corinthians 5:17). God does prevent and restrain some acts of evil. This world would be MUCH WORSE were not God restraining evil. At the same time, God has given us the ability to choose good and evil, and when we choose evil, He allows us, and those around us, to suffer the consequences of evil. Rather than blaming God and questioning God on why He does not prevent all evil, we should be about the business of proclaiming the cure for evil and its consequences—Jesus Christ! https://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-evil.html
Just an exert from When Bad Things Happen to God"s People, by Richard Rice which may help:
"God endowed humans with freedom in order to make it possible for them to return His love for them. Love can exist only where there is freedom, for unless a response is based on personal choice, it isn't really love. God could have guaranteed our affection for Him by making it impossible for us to do anything else but this would not be real love. . . . But "forced allegiance".
Evil entered the universe with Lucifer's decision to reject God's authority. And it entered human history with the decision of Adam and Eve to disobey God in the Garden of Eden. Both decisions arose from the exercise of personal freedom. Now, once you have traced a development back to a free decision, you have gone as far as you can go in explaining it. For by definition, a free decision is uncaused. It is true that God gave freedom to His creatures. But this gift does not make Him responsible for what they do with it. True God could have prevented evil from entering the universe by excluding freedom. But He could not create beings who were really free and at the same time guarantee that they would use their freedom only in the way He wanted them to use it.
To summarize, a loving God created beings with freedom to love Him in return. But some of them misused their freedom and chose to reject Him. Their uncaused, unjustified rebellion is the ultimate source of all the suffering that has followed. So sin - deliberate disobedience - not God, is the ultimate cause of suffering.
Pain and grief were never part of His original plan for our lives . . . we must recognize that there are no simple answers to the problem of suffering. It is futile to try to assign a single cause for all suffering, unless, of course, it be sin in a very generalized sense".
Hope this helped. . . .
"God endowed humans with freedom in order to make it possible for them to return His love for them. Love can exist only where there is freedom, for unless a response is based on personal choice, it isn't really love. God could have guaranteed our affection for Him by making it impossible for us to do anything else but this would not be real love. . . . But "forced allegiance".
Evil entered the universe with Lucifer's decision to reject God's authority. And it entered human history with the decision of Adam and Eve to disobey God in the Garden of Eden. Both decisions arose from the exercise of personal freedom. Now, once you have traced a development back to a free decision, you have gone as far as you can go in explaining it. For by definition, a free decision is uncaused. It is true that God gave freedom to His creatures. But this gift does not make Him responsible for what they do with it. True God could have prevented evil from entering the universe by excluding freedom. But He could not create beings who were really free and at the same time guarantee that they would use their freedom only in the way He wanted them to use it.
To summarize, a loving God created beings with freedom to love Him in return. But some of them misused their freedom and chose to reject Him. Their uncaused, unjustified rebellion is the ultimate source of all the suffering that has followed. So sin - deliberate disobedience - not God, is the ultimate cause of suffering.
Pain and grief were never part of His original plan for our lives . . . we must recognize that there are no simple answers to the problem of suffering. It is futile to try to assign a single cause for all suffering, unless, of course, it be sin in a very generalized sense".
Hope this helped. . . .
D
If the premise is wrong, the thinking it out to prove the premise is right is only going to get muddled more and more.
As believers most of us can see what's wrong with the premise, "the universe and world evolved." Because of that, there is no particular reason to cipher out how evolution works. It doesn't work. But for those of us who do understand that God really meant it when he told how he created everything, it still gives us plenty to think out, but from a level to enjoy it, instead of fight against it.
In like style the premise of "free will" as it has come to devolve within the world today is also wrong. Because of that, there is no particular reason to cipher out how free will works.
Easier way -- start with the proper premise. Much easier to figure out how it all works just by starting at the proper premise.
What's the proper premise when reading the Bible? "The Bible is a book about the one and only sovereign God."
Much easier! And yet still amazing to ponder!
As believers most of us can see what's wrong with the premise, "the universe and world evolved." Because of that, there is no particular reason to cipher out how evolution works. It doesn't work. But for those of us who do understand that God really meant it when he told how he created everything, it still gives us plenty to think out, but from a level to enjoy it, instead of fight against it.
In like style the premise of "free will" as it has come to devolve within the world today is also wrong. Because of that, there is no particular reason to cipher out how free will works.
Easier way -- start with the proper premise. Much easier to figure out how it all works just by starting at the proper premise.
What's the proper premise when reading the Bible? "The Bible is a book about the one and only sovereign God."
Much easier! And yet still amazing to ponder!
I read this book when I was still looking for an answer.
Of course, the answer is not in this book either.
You said in the next to last paragraph that God did not intend for us to experience pain and grief.
So, if we are, it comes to mean that He is not omnipotent OR omniscient !
Do you see the problem?
All we could do is accept that we can't know.
If we understood everything about God, we'd be God!
Of course, the answer is not in this book either.
You said in the next to last paragraph that God did not intend for us to experience pain and grief.
So, if we are, it comes to mean that He is not omnipotent OR omniscient !
Do you see the problem?
All we could do is accept that we can't know.
If we understood everything about God, we'd be God!
Lucifer had a high position one of the top angels next to God and he was created beautiful and became prideful and wanted God's position. He convinced 1/3 of the angels to his way of thinking and they were banished from heaven.
Isaiah 14:
12"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
13"But you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'…
Revelation 12:
[h=3]Satan Thrown Out of Heaven[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[SUP][a][/SUP] in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Isaiah 14:
12"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
13"But you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'…
Revelation 12:
[h=3]Satan Thrown Out of Heaven[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[SUP][a][/SUP] in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Eve was tricked and lied to by satan in the serpent. Satan told a half truth and made Eve doubt God thinking God and withheld something from her and Adam which was the knowledge of good and evil that satan painted as something desirable to know about.
She should have listened and obeyed God's instruction but she chose not to do so.
She should have listened and obeyed God's instruction but she chose not to do so.
As far as the evil continuing. I kind of look at earth as the reality show for the universe. We humans with free will did choose sin by disobeying God and now that sinful choice is playing out to the bitter end. The beginning was God creating this earth with one instruction to not eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and humans making the wrong choice infecting this earth with sin. That was the beginning.
The middle was Jesus coming to earth to pay the price which is the wages of sin is death either ours or the sacrifice chosen by God and accepted by us to cover and pay for our sins. That has been done so satans fate as well as the people who don't accept the sacrifice that Jesus made will one day be destroyed. So when people say it's been done they are referring to Jesus death on the cross.
The End is when Jesus returns to take the ones who have accepted His sacrifice and paid for their sins home with Him and that part hasn't happened yet which is one reason why sin and evil still goes on now because satan and evil has not yet been destroyed. But it will happen and the way the world is getting worse I believe the end is near.
Once Jesus returns the evil and sin part will be over and the Bible tells us that the earth will be made new again.
Revelation 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
The middle was Jesus coming to earth to pay the price which is the wages of sin is death either ours or the sacrifice chosen by God and accepted by us to cover and pay for our sins. That has been done so satans fate as well as the people who don't accept the sacrifice that Jesus made will one day be destroyed. So when people say it's been done they are referring to Jesus death on the cross.
The End is when Jesus returns to take the ones who have accepted His sacrifice and paid for their sins home with Him and that part hasn't happened yet which is one reason why sin and evil still goes on now because satan and evil has not yet been destroyed. But it will happen and the way the world is getting worse I believe the end is near.
Once Jesus returns the evil and sin part will be over and the Bible tells us that the earth will be made new again.
Revelation 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
The thing about sin is that once this earth is over sin will not rise up a second time. Who in their right mind would ever want to go back to this life on this earth?
Nahum 1:
9Whatever you devise against the LORD, He will make a complete end of it. Distress will not rise up twice.
Another version
King James 2000 Bible
What do you imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
Nahum 1:
9Whatever you devise against the LORD, He will make a complete end of it. Distress will not rise up twice.
Another version
King James 2000 Bible
What do you imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
Of course there is an answer !
Is it GOD's fault because we mess up ? No, it's our own fault, starting with Adam and Eve. So why did God allow evil to take hold in man(kind) and escalate to destruction ?
Because once satan had poisened their mind and heart with his own 'opposition to God (see Isa 14v12,13) man would follow in his/satans steps....wanting to be Rulers of everything on their own terms, knocking God off His throne.
So, should God have nipped our DISobedience in the bud and stopped evil from progressing ? well God had already made everything very good for man and told them what to do....to no avail !
So if it is all satans evil doing WHY did God allow him in the garden ? wouldn't all evil be avoided if he was kept away from man ? seems not ! and we have to learn to deal with him...with God's help if we listen to HIM and obey instructions...something people are not strictly taught by worldly churches.
There is a lot more but I'll leave it there.
Is it GOD's fault because we mess up ? No, it's our own fault, starting with Adam and Eve. So why did God allow evil to take hold in man(kind) and escalate to destruction ?
Because once satan had poisened their mind and heart with his own 'opposition to God (see Isa 14v12,13) man would follow in his/satans steps....wanting to be Rulers of everything on their own terms, knocking God off His throne.
So, should God have nipped our DISobedience in the bud and stopped evil from progressing ? well God had already made everything very good for man and told them what to do....to no avail !
So if it is all satans evil doing WHY did God allow him in the garden ? wouldn't all evil be avoided if he was kept away from man ? seems not ! and we have to learn to deal with him...with God's help if we listen to HIM and obey instructions...something people are not strictly taught by worldly churches.
There is a lot more but I'll leave it there.