Regeneration in Christ, Titus 3:3-7
- Thread starter Tommy4Christ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Skinski,
Do you know what the work is that Paul is talking about? (I will give you a clue) This is another place where the chapter breaks are really bad because it's written as a letter and not a book. He actually starts in 2 Corithians 5
[SUP]11[/SUP]Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. [SUP]12 [/SUP]We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[SUP][a][/SUP] The old has gone, the new is here! [SUP]18[/SUP]All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:[SUP]19 [/SUP]that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. [SUP]20 [/SUP]We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. [SUP]21 [/SUP]God made him who had no sin to be sin[SUP][b][/SUP] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For he says,
“In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
The biggest thing you leave out in all of this is the thing God talks about throughout the whole Bible and that's God's mercy. It's why we are to forgive each other,restore the brother or sister that has fallen,encourage one another to good works,these are all things that should be coming out of a heart that understands what God's mercy means. Once we understand what it cost Jesus to bring us restoration to God it should change our hearts and come out in how we live. Jesus paid way to high a price for us to pick and choose who are to come to Him,and unless you are God do know where they are in their walk with God?
Look at David,was his life so pure or was it that his heart was right before God? Remember he is the one God called a man after God's own heart.
Do you know what the work is that Paul is talking about? (I will give you a clue) This is another place where the chapter breaks are really bad because it's written as a letter and not a book. He actually starts in 2 Corithians 5
[SUP]11[/SUP]Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. [SUP]12 [/SUP]We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[SUP][a][/SUP] The old has gone, the new is here! [SUP]18[/SUP]All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:[SUP]19 [/SUP]that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. [SUP]20 [/SUP]We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. [SUP]21 [/SUP]God made him who had no sin to be sin[SUP][b][/SUP] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For he says,
“In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
The biggest thing you leave out in all of this is the thing God talks about throughout the whole Bible and that's God's mercy. It's why we are to forgive each other,restore the brother or sister that has fallen,encourage one another to good works,these are all things that should be coming out of a heart that understands what God's mercy means. Once we understand what it cost Jesus to bring us restoration to God it should change our hearts and come out in how we live. Jesus paid way to high a price for us to pick and choose who are to come to Him,and unless you are God do know where they are in their walk with God?
Look at David,was his life so pure or was it that his heart was right before God? Remember he is the one God called a man after God's own heart.
One of the errors many of you hold is simply the belief that because God is merciful that forgiveness is granted "in the midst of rebellion." That belief in essence is simply a repackaged "disobey God and ye shall not surely die."
Yes God is merciful. What does the Bible say about this mercy? Paul writes this...
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Repentance! God's mercy is to lead people to repentance.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God does not want any to perish, He wants ALL to come to repentance.
Godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation. Repentance is the dynamic of change where the rebellion ceases and the yielding to God begins.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
The prodigal son came to a repentance. The father was merciful but the prodigal son was not restored whilst he was in the pig pen. The prodigal son had to repent first. It is repent for remission.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
So many people today twist the mercy of God in their minds as being applicable to "forgiveness being granted whilst in rebellion." The Bible does not teach that anywhere.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:7 is a direct parallel to the parable of the prodigal son. The rebellion ceases and then pardon is granted.
I notice you referred back to 2Cor 5 Sarah. Does 2Cor chapter 5 teach that pardon is granted before the rebellion ceases?
You say things like, "Jesus paid way to high a price for us to pick and choose who are to come to Him,and unless you are God do know where they are in their walk with God? "
Why is contending for repentance in that the rebellion ceases like in Isa 55:7, Jam 1:21, Luke 15, 2Cor 7:10-11 the same as "us picking and choosing who comes to God" in your mind? Where do these strawmen come from?
Paul preached repentance and faith proven by deeds, why don't you accuse him of the same charge? It is through repentance that the rebellion to God ceases. This is why the Bible says "repentance for remission," the cessation of rebellion is a condition that God has absolutely mandated that must occur before forgiveness is granted. This doctrine does not impinge on the mercy of God. God is merciful yes, but pardon is not granted to those who persist in rebellion, that is what Satan teaches. That is what the Serpent implied to Eve, "yes you can rebel, you won't surely die, it will be ok." That is what you are saying is it not?
Due to the fact that this belief in the idea that the rebellion does not have to cease prior to pardon being granted is so universal throughout the entire church system we therefore have a church system that is full of rebellion. Is it any wonder that in surveys taken that it shows that MOST men view pornography?
The whole system is rotten to the core due to this message of death. Yes the message sounds appealing and the wolves are masters at elaborating on the Bible, but they isolate and twist various passages completely out of context in order to paints a picture that pardon is granted whilst one remains in rebellion.
Here is what Paul states...
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Acceptance is conditional on your actions. Paul knew that. Paul knew very well that you cannot be walking in the lusts of your flesh in rebellion to God and expect to be accepted. He knew that every person is going to be judged on deeds, that is conduct.
Yes God forgives the "past misdeeds" of those who repent, just like the prodigal son was forgiven of his wayward living but that forgiveness was not granted until he forsook that lifestyle. Read Ephesians 5 where Paul warns people to make sure they have departed from immorality. God's people are holy, they are not filthy rebellious sinners wearing a magic cloak.
Satan wants people to believe the cloak (righteousness imputed whilst in rebellion) because it is an antidote in the mind to the necessity of the forsaking of rebellion in repentance.
The cross of Jesus Christ has been perverted into a provision which covers ongoing rebellion. You believe that the provision can be applied to the prodigal son whilst he is in the pig pen.
Paul says this...
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Apostate Christianity would have you believe that the prodigal son can be this new creature whilst still wallowing in his sin in the pig pen. It is pure foolishness.
Old things pass away and ALL things become new and yet you remain in filth and rebellion because who knows "where they are in their walk with God"
Paul says this...
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Be ye reconciled to God! Not by trusting in some provisional covering while you REMAIN in rebellion. No, that is a lie. We have to be reconciled to God through repentance and faith by which we can then abide in Christ whereby the righteousness of God is manifested through us.
ALL THINGS DO BECOME NEW. OLD THINGS REALLY DO PASS AWAY.
Paul goes on to say...
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
Where does Paul even give any hint of righteousness being a forensic cloak which covers an ongoing state of filth and rebellion?
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
Yet you will read what I write and speak against the necessity of holiness and even use the very same scriptures I use to argue in favour of the prodigal son being justified whilst in the pig pen.
If you abide in Christ you don't sin. Those who abide in Christ have departed from iniquity. Those who are Christ's have been crucified, the body of sin has been destroyed, they have been set free from sin. That is the ministry of reconciliation!
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
The children of God are manifested to the world by what they do. Not self-righteousness. Not sinless perfection (as in never making a mistake). Simply manifested by conduct that flows from a heart that has been redeemed from all iniquity and has been made pure.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Yes God is merciful. What does the Bible say about this mercy? Paul writes this...
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Repentance! God's mercy is to lead people to repentance.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God does not want any to perish, He wants ALL to come to repentance.
Godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation. Repentance is the dynamic of change where the rebellion ceases and the yielding to God begins.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
The prodigal son came to a repentance. The father was merciful but the prodigal son was not restored whilst he was in the pig pen. The prodigal son had to repent first. It is repent for remission.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
So many people today twist the mercy of God in their minds as being applicable to "forgiveness being granted whilst in rebellion." The Bible does not teach that anywhere.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:7 is a direct parallel to the parable of the prodigal son. The rebellion ceases and then pardon is granted.
I notice you referred back to 2Cor 5 Sarah. Does 2Cor chapter 5 teach that pardon is granted before the rebellion ceases?
You say things like, "Jesus paid way to high a price for us to pick and choose who are to come to Him,and unless you are God do know where they are in their walk with God? "
Why is contending for repentance in that the rebellion ceases like in Isa 55:7, Jam 1:21, Luke 15, 2Cor 7:10-11 the same as "us picking and choosing who comes to God" in your mind? Where do these strawmen come from?
Paul preached repentance and faith proven by deeds, why don't you accuse him of the same charge? It is through repentance that the rebellion to God ceases. This is why the Bible says "repentance for remission," the cessation of rebellion is a condition that God has absolutely mandated that must occur before forgiveness is granted. This doctrine does not impinge on the mercy of God. God is merciful yes, but pardon is not granted to those who persist in rebellion, that is what Satan teaches. That is what the Serpent implied to Eve, "yes you can rebel, you won't surely die, it will be ok." That is what you are saying is it not?
Due to the fact that this belief in the idea that the rebellion does not have to cease prior to pardon being granted is so universal throughout the entire church system we therefore have a church system that is full of rebellion. Is it any wonder that in surveys taken that it shows that MOST men view pornography?
The whole system is rotten to the core due to this message of death. Yes the message sounds appealing and the wolves are masters at elaborating on the Bible, but they isolate and twist various passages completely out of context in order to paints a picture that pardon is granted whilst one remains in rebellion.
Here is what Paul states...
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Acceptance is conditional on your actions. Paul knew that. Paul knew very well that you cannot be walking in the lusts of your flesh in rebellion to God and expect to be accepted. He knew that every person is going to be judged on deeds, that is conduct.
Yes God forgives the "past misdeeds" of those who repent, just like the prodigal son was forgiven of his wayward living but that forgiveness was not granted until he forsook that lifestyle. Read Ephesians 5 where Paul warns people to make sure they have departed from immorality. God's people are holy, they are not filthy rebellious sinners wearing a magic cloak.
Satan wants people to believe the cloak (righteousness imputed whilst in rebellion) because it is an antidote in the mind to the necessity of the forsaking of rebellion in repentance.
The cross of Jesus Christ has been perverted into a provision which covers ongoing rebellion. You believe that the provision can be applied to the prodigal son whilst he is in the pig pen.
Paul says this...
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Apostate Christianity would have you believe that the prodigal son can be this new creature whilst still wallowing in his sin in the pig pen. It is pure foolishness.
Old things pass away and ALL things become new and yet you remain in filth and rebellion because who knows "where they are in their walk with God"
Paul says this...
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Be ye reconciled to God! Not by trusting in some provisional covering while you REMAIN in rebellion. No, that is a lie. We have to be reconciled to God through repentance and faith by which we can then abide in Christ whereby the righteousness of God is manifested through us.
ALL THINGS DO BECOME NEW. OLD THINGS REALLY DO PASS AWAY.
Paul goes on to say...
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
Where does Paul even give any hint of righteousness being a forensic cloak which covers an ongoing state of filth and rebellion?
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
Yet you will read what I write and speak against the necessity of holiness and even use the very same scriptures I use to argue in favour of the prodigal son being justified whilst in the pig pen.
If you abide in Christ you don't sin. Those who abide in Christ have departed from iniquity. Those who are Christ's have been crucified, the body of sin has been destroyed, they have been set free from sin. That is the ministry of reconciliation!
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
The children of God are manifested to the world by what they do. Not self-righteousness. Not sinless perfection (as in never making a mistake). Simply manifested by conduct that flows from a heart that has been redeemed from all iniquity and has been made pure.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
If I understand you correctly Skinski, no one is pardoned while they are in rebellion, and rebellion is committing sin. Therefore if no one is pardoned until rebellion ceases, no one can be saved/a Christian until they cease sin.
As sin is transgressuion of the law, this must mean that no one can be saved/a Christian until they perfectly obey the the law
If I have gone wrong somewhere, please tell me where
So in order for a person to have right standing with God/be accepted by him they must firstly perfectly uphold the law
The law Paul says the Christian is not under and must die to where righteousness is concerned
As sin is transgressuion of the law, this must mean that no one can be saved/a Christian until they perfectly obey the the law
If I have gone wrong somewhere, please tell me where
So in order for a person to have right standing with God/be accepted by him they must firstly perfectly uphold the law
The law Paul says the Christian is not under and must die to where righteousness is concerned
Last edited:
So you don't sin at all anymore. Not ever in any place at all. Not even the smallest little speck. You never get angry at someone for no reason at all. You never ever have a single bad thought about anyone. You never ever fudge on your taxes. You have given to every single person you see in need. You have tried to restore the fallen brothers and sisters in love. You don't speed. You never get angry at the guy who cut you off in traffic. You are 100% patient when there are very long lines and you are in a hurry to get somewhere. (If you are or were married) You never got angry at your wife for burning your dinner. You were always patient with your children and never spoke to them in anger. If you have in any one of these you are still guilty and deserving of hell fire.
I have never said that we can keep on sinning. But again what do you do about the sins that God has not yet shown you that are sin. All I have said is we have not yet gotten to the place where every little thing has been cleaned out. Have you ever once asked the Lord to reveal what is in your heart and to show you the depths of wickedness that is there. Have you ever once asked the Lord to test and try your heart?
Again Titus is to teach them those things because they have not yet gotten there.
I have never said that we can keep on sinning. But again what do you do about the sins that God has not yet shown you that are sin. All I have said is we have not yet gotten to the place where every little thing has been cleaned out. Have you ever once asked the Lord to reveal what is in your heart and to show you the depths of wickedness that is there. Have you ever once asked the Lord to test and try your heart?
Again Titus is to teach them those things because they have not yet gotten there.
One of the errors many of you hold is simply the belief that because God is merciful that . This is why the Bible says "repentance for remission," the cessation of rebellion is a condition that God has absolutely mandated that must occur before forgiveness is granted. This doctrine does not impinge on the mercy of God. God is merciful yes, but pardon is not granted to those who persist in rebellion, that is what Satan teaches. That is what the Serpent implied to Eve, "yes you can rebel, you won't surely die, it will be ok." That is what you are saying is it not?
Just to add Skinski
A person is saved depending on whether the Holy Spirit lives in them(Rom8:9)
So if a person is not saved until they perfectly obey the law, you are saying a person, in their own strength, without the Holy Spirit living in them must perfectly obey the law before they can be in a saved state
Where do you get all this from?
Just to add Skinski
A person is saved depending on whether the Holy Spirit lives in them(Rom8:9)
So if a person is not saved until they perfectly obey the law, you are saying a person, in their own strength, without the Holy Spirit living in them must perfectly obey the law before they can be in a saved state
Where do you get all this from?
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Sin - ἁμαρτία
hamartia
ham-ar-tee'-ah
Sin unto death is rebellion.
From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful).Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
When the Scripture teaches that a Christian is not under the law it does not mean the requirements of the law have been negated. That is what you are clearly implying. Not being under the law is an allusion to the righteousness of the law being fulfilled by a faith that works by love (as we walk after the Spirit) (Rom 8:4).
This is why Paul states that "faith upholds the law" in Rom 3:31. A Christian is not under the LETTER of the law because the letter kills.
The law was always a shadow of love. The law was an outward description of right conduct, hence don't kill, steal or lie. Yet not killing, stealing and lying IN AND OF THEMSELVES is not righteousness because, for example, a thief may not steal because he is afraid of getting caught. If the thief a righteous man because he refrains from stealing because he is afraid of getting caught? He isn't stealing! The HEART is the issue. A righteous man does not steal because STEALING IS WRONG. A righteous man does not steal because he LOVES HIS NEIGHBOUR. Hence a righteous man is not under the law, the law is for the thief. The righteous man does not need the law because the righteous man does not do those things anyway. LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW.
God's people are not under the law because THEY LOVE GOD AND THEY LOVE THEIR FELLOW MAN.
Look at what John writes...
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Apostate Christianity has completely perverted this concept. Modern Christianity has replaced MANIFESTED RIGHTEOUSNESS THROUGH HEART PURITY with a FORENSIC DECREE CLOAKING HEART IMPURITY.
Righteousness is not in the law but rather it is in the Spirit of Christ which a human being accesses when they give themselves over to God. It is not about "obeying perfectly the law" as you state, it is about walking by a faith that works by love, a heart in submission to God having forsaking the rejection of God.
Grace teaches, we yield. The fruit is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Obedience unto righteousness unto holiness the end of which is eternal life.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Sin - ἁμαρτία
hamartia
ham-ar-tee'-ah
Sin unto death is rebellion.
From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful).Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
When the Scripture teaches that a Christian is not under the law it does not mean the requirements of the law have been negated. That is what you are clearly implying. Not being under the law is an allusion to the righteousness of the law being fulfilled by a faith that works by love (as we walk after the Spirit) (Rom 8:4).
This is why Paul states that "faith upholds the law" in Rom 3:31. A Christian is not under the LETTER of the law because the letter kills.
The law was always a shadow of love. The law was an outward description of right conduct, hence don't kill, steal or lie. Yet not killing, stealing and lying IN AND OF THEMSELVES is not righteousness because, for example, a thief may not steal because he is afraid of getting caught. If the thief a righteous man because he refrains from stealing because he is afraid of getting caught? He isn't stealing! The HEART is the issue. A righteous man does not steal because STEALING IS WRONG. A righteous man does not steal because he LOVES HIS NEIGHBOUR. Hence a righteous man is not under the law, the law is for the thief. The righteous man does not need the law because the righteous man does not do those things anyway. LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW.
God's people are not under the law because THEY LOVE GOD AND THEY LOVE THEIR FELLOW MAN.
Look at what John writes...
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Apostate Christianity has completely perverted this concept. Modern Christianity has replaced MANIFESTED RIGHTEOUSNESS THROUGH HEART PURITY with a FORENSIC DECREE CLOAKING HEART IMPURITY.
Righteousness is not in the law but rather it is in the Spirit of Christ which a human being accesses when they give themselves over to God. It is not about "obeying perfectly the law" as you state, it is about walking by a faith that works by love, a heart in submission to God having forsaking the rejection of God.
Grace teaches, we yield. The fruit is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Obedience unto righteousness unto holiness the end of which is eternal life.
There you go denying heart purity. Always arguing in favour of ongoing rebellion to God. You simply do not believe one can be redeemed from all iniquity and made pure.
You also confuse temptation with sin. You also make no distinction between sins of presumption and sins of non-presumption.
You throw everything into the one bag and then use that to speak ill of heart purity.
You have ears but cannot hear. You have eyes but cannot see. There are many like you.
You also confuse temptation with sin. You also make no distinction between sins of presumption and sins of non-presumption.
You throw everything into the one bag and then use that to speak ill of heart purity.
You have ears but cannot hear. You have eyes but cannot see. There are many like you.
You speak ill of heart purity too Mark.
I wonder if Peter was to speak with you if you would say the same about him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
I wonder if Peter was to speak with you if you would say the same about him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Again, observe, that the old nature of man, which remains inthe Christian is evil, and it cannot ever be anything else but evil, forwe are told in this chapter that "in me,"—that is, in myflesh—"there dwelleth no good thing." The old Adam-nature cannot beimproved; it cannot be made better; it is hopeless to attempt it. You may dowhat you please with it, you may educate it, you may instruct it, and thus youmay give it more instruments for rebellion, but you cannot make the rebel intothe friend, you cannot turn the darkness into light; it is an enemy to God, andan enemy to God it ever must be. On the contrary, the new life which God hasgiven us cannot sin. That is the meaning of a passage in John, where it issaid, "The child of God sinneth not; he cannot sin, because he is born ofGod." The old nature is evil only evil, and that continually, the newnature is wholly good; it knows nothing of sin, except to hate it. Its contactwith sin brings it pain and misery, and it cries out, "Woe is me that Idwell in Meshech, that I tabernacle in the tents of Kedar.
Charles Spurgeon on 1John3:9
Tell me Skinski, do you perfectly at all times follow after the Spirit, or do you at times lapse?
Simple question that requires a very simple answer
Charles Spurgeon on 1John3:9
Tell me Skinski, do you perfectly at all times follow after the Spirit, or do you at times lapse?
Simple question that requires a very simple answer
Mark,
There is no point continuing. Your heart is set against the plain words of Scripture. Your mind is a stronghold against the truth. I can address all your points very easy but you don't actually grasp what I say at all, your mind twists it up into something else which you then object too.
You are deceived by the ancient pagan teaching of the dual nature of man of which the doctrine of inborn sin has its roots which completely negates, in your mind, heart purity being possible. Thus salvation to you must be a provision that covers an ongoing inward defiled state.
Jesus does redeem us from ALL INIQUITY and He does make us PURE.
Last edited:
Let me repeat Skinski
When I followed your teaching in my youth I was consumed by sin, I was completely its slave, once I followed the biblical teaching of Grace, sin lessened in my life from where I was under your kind of teaching. So I know which teaching produces the holier life
But note, I am far from perfect, I have many faults, for I do not claim, 24/7 365 days a year to perfectly follow after the Holy Spirit, and when we lapse and do not follow after the Spirit we sin. That includes you as well as me
If you believe you live a holier life than me, and you sin less than me, please be specific as to the sins you believe I commit that you do not commit, asd what you do that means you live a holier life than me
Thanks.
If you cannot be specific you do not know which one of us sins the most(or least) unless you claim to have the gift of discernment and see each time I commit sin in my daily life
Of course if you did have that gift, you could plainly tell me specifically where I am commiting more sin in my flesh than you are in yours
When I followed your teaching in my youth I was consumed by sin, I was completely its slave, once I followed the biblical teaching of Grace, sin lessened in my life from where I was under your kind of teaching. So I know which teaching produces the holier life
But note, I am far from perfect, I have many faults, for I do not claim, 24/7 365 days a year to perfectly follow after the Holy Spirit, and when we lapse and do not follow after the Spirit we sin. That includes you as well as me
If you believe you live a holier life than me, and you sin less than me, please be specific as to the sins you believe I commit that you do not commit, asd what you do that means you live a holier life than me
Thanks.
If you cannot be specific you do not know which one of us sins the most(or least) unless you claim to have the gift of discernment and see each time I commit sin in my daily life
Of course if you did have that gift, you could plainly tell me specifically where I am commiting more sin in my flesh than you are in yours
You have me so wrong Skinski,I am well aware of the price that a child of God will have to deal with when they are in rebellion. Ask Jonah what it cost him. God will let those in rebellion hit the brick wall,and the price is very high,but He will let them go till they reach the bottom.
Again is your heart completely pure? Have allowed the Lord to test you and try you that way or are you afraid to really see what's in there so the Lord can clean it out? (He won't force you to do that)
Again is your heart completely pure? Have allowed the Lord to test you and try you that way or are you afraid to really see what's in there so the Lord can clean it out? (He won't force you to do that)
Skinski
This is what James says is PURE and faultless religion:
Religion that God our Father accepts AS PURE AND FAULTLESS IS THIS, to look after orphans and widows, in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James1:27
Now you will claim the second part, but you told me the works God requires are crucifying our own flesh and not sinning, that is it.
James says that is not enough
Now I would guess, you consider your work for God to simply come on websites like these and lay demands on others you do not yourself try and keep
So now the literal word is condemning you as impure, how does that make you feel?
As you continually quote it to others to say they are in rebellion
This is what James says is PURE and faultless religion:
Religion that God our Father accepts AS PURE AND FAULTLESS IS THIS, to look after orphans and widows, in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James1:27
Now you will claim the second part, but you told me the works God requires are crucifying our own flesh and not sinning, that is it.
James says that is not enough
Now I would guess, you consider your work for God to simply come on websites like these and lay demands on others you do not yourself try and keep
So now the literal word is condemning you as impure, how does that make you feel?
As you continually quote it to others to say they are in rebellion
Last edited:
E
there is one major FLAW in the Ops conclusion.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
1. It was not by us doing works of righteousness ourselves (not by us obeying any law. Not by us "doing good deeds" and not by us as many say carrying our cross. which are ALL works of righteousness we do or can do.
2. It was according to his mercy. We did not deserve it. but he should love to us,, and compashion
3. He saved us (scripture tells us salvation is complete. eternal and a gift of God) By washing and renewing us (the washing removes the penalty of sin and makes us clean (justified) the renewing speaks of the new birth we have in Christ)
4. He then tells us who does this work. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.
now if all these things are true, and scripture says they are. Then what Skinski and Tommy both claim to be true is false. Because the very passage they quote makes it clear. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY, WE WILL NEVER BE SAVED BY, AND OUR SALVATION WILL NEVER BE DETERMINED BY Any works of righteousness (good deeds) we have done, are doing, or will ever do.
So when you see someone preaching this gospel of works. RUN! RUN! RUN! as far as you can from them. for they will lead you to hell!
[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
1. It was not by us doing works of righteousness ourselves (not by us obeying any law. Not by us "doing good deeds" and not by us as many say carrying our cross. which are ALL works of righteousness we do or can do.
2. It was according to his mercy. We did not deserve it. but he should love to us,, and compashion
3. He saved us (scripture tells us salvation is complete. eternal and a gift of God) By washing and renewing us (the washing removes the penalty of sin and makes us clean (justified) the renewing speaks of the new birth we have in Christ)
4. He then tells us who does this work. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.
now if all these things are true, and scripture says they are. Then what Skinski and Tommy both claim to be true is false. Because the very passage they quote makes it clear. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY, WE WILL NEVER BE SAVED BY, AND OUR SALVATION WILL NEVER BE DETERMINED BY Any works of righteousness (good deeds) we have done, are doing, or will ever do.
So when you see someone preaching this gospel of works. RUN! RUN! RUN! as far as you can from them. for they will lead you to hell!