Regulative Principle of Worship

posthuman · Apr 3, 2017

does one derive this stance strictly from applying a regulative principle to torah?

is "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" a restatement of the regulative principle?

if the regulative principle alone does not justify the disciples harvesting wheat on the sabbath, and yet they were justified, then is it reasonable to strictly apply the regulative principle to worship, if it is thus shown to be an insufficient method of interpretation of scripture?

what is the freedom we have been granted in Christ?
is it restrictive, or is it permissive?

it is lawful to do good on the sabbath

what is it to "do good" ?
is "good" defined strictly by a written list of allowable things in scripture?
does our concept of "doing good" flow from a regulative principle?

hornetguy · Apr 3, 2017

beta said:

I think God is big on reminders.... otherwise, why a rainbow?

and....

reminders.....

beta · Apr 3, 2017

hornetguy said:

I agree - reminders from GOD, not human-deviced artifacts we reverence and worship and is against scripture.

Spokenpassage · Apr 3, 2017

posthuman said:

Regulative Principle of Worship is the structuring our worship, private and public, according to Scriptures. Jesus showed that the disciples were not breaking this principle, because he clearly states that to do mercy is better than sacrifice. God, who regulates what is true worship and what is not, just stated that his disciples were justified by the Law.

If you believe we should add to Scripture, then that is on you. But I believe that our worship should be what God commands, and not what we invent.

hornetguy · Apr 3, 2017

beta said:

Oh, I absolutely agree that we should not reverence or worship anything, or anybody, other than our God.

Having a reminder is another thing altogether.

I've seen people just become apoplectic if someone somehow mishandles a Bible. It's a BOOK...

If we are going to get all wound up over someone throwing a Bible on the ground, then we are missing the whole point of the commandment. We've allowed a BOOK to become something to worship.

That being said, I don't think we should go out of our way to tear up our Bibles, but to worry about it if a page gets torn, or if it gets dropped and kicked around.... isn't that a form of worship?

beta · Apr 3, 2017

hornetguy said:

So we are in agreement ! There is a godly benefit in taking care of our Bibles that we don't get from the manmade religious artifacts that grab our attention. I'm sure the 'golden calf would make a nice ornament but God was not pleased !
So let's just do what God says - reading the Bible is necessary and beneficial, displaying and revering religious paraphernalia is not....case closed for me.

Rockrz · Apr 5, 2017

Put one on the back of your car... and stopping a traffic lights will be a freaky experience

Those people like to peek

posthuman · Apr 5, 2017

Spokenpassage said:

what would we be doing if we add a list of "thou shalt not's" that don't exist in the scripture?

e.g. Campbellites, prohibiting instrumentation when no such prohibition is found in the Bible, in fact, the opposite is found there: encouragement to praise God with all kinds of instruments. regulative principle in action, right?

is that adding to the scripture ((since commands that don't exist are given))?
or is that subtracting from the scripture ((since the entire OT is ignored))?

Angela53510 · Apr 5, 2017

I read most of the article and was rather stunned at the garbage speak that went in for pages and pages! When I was on about page 3 or 4 it started talking about the "Beginning" of the article and I knew I was in trouble!

I searched in vain for some actual substance, and finally found a cautious reference to old hymns, and that some new ones might be ok. One every six months, if approved by committee?? I was waiting for the enthusiastic endorsement of psalmody! Ok, I confess, my finger got tired of scrolling and I missed the end! Surely it couldn't have gone on that much longer, right??

I took a worship course in Seminary, and I led a worship ministry in my Baptist church for several years. There are core principles in worship, and variations in churches and denominations. But this was a bunch of old men blathering, and really very little about the nuts and bolts of a worship ministry. As principles, I will say no! Going to have to go with common sense, righteousness and the Holy Spirit!

posthuman · Apr 5, 2017

Spokenpassage said:

yes, but that's not really answering any of my questions, it's just restating one of the facts i already stated.

is Christ applying the regulative principle to arrive at this conclusion?

does He appear to be using the same reasoning that a Campbellite uses when he defends His disciples harvesting grain on the sabbath - an act specifically forbidden by torah - by referring to David eating the showbread? when a Campbellite ignores the Psalms and says that because there isn't a specific NT example of a lute or lyre, all musical instrumentation in worship is hereby taboo?

is Christ establishing an argument from silence?

the disciples were picked, rubbed grain and ate it on the sabbath.
touching Christ's tassels healed a woman that Christ called "daughter"
who else did He call daughter?
why?
in the OT, a man was found gathering wood on the sabbath. he was put to death by the entire congregation, and then God commanded that the Israelites must all wear blue tassels.
why did Christ's tassels heal, and those of the pharisees - who elongated theirs - not heal?

because of the regulative principle?

is "I desire mercy rather than sacrifice" a restatement of the regulative principle in worship?
or are those contrary?

neither on this mountain, nor some other, but in spirit and in truth

is that equivalent to the regulative principle in worship?

posthuman · Apr 5, 2017

did David add or subtract from the law when he danced before the Lord?
where was dancing commanded?
was David unjustified?

if to love God is to hate sin, and if God displays His anger with sinners every day, and if the Lord is a warrior, then taking into account the full revelation of God can worship of Him be rightly restricted to emotions, noises, actions and motifs that specifically omit such things which are in congruence with these revealed attributes of Him?

i.e. does the regulative principle justify you in "editing" the Psalms and what is deemed as 'acceptable liturgy' so that nothing hearkening to, reflective of, or celebrating Him being a God of wrath and judgement is allowable?

the article states "the music should be beautiful"
the scripture states that God punishes the Assyrians to the sound of music, fighting in battle to the sound of timbrels and harps ((re: Isaiah 30:32))
is this assertion in the article in harmony with the scripture?
what is "beautiful" ?

is He beautiful when He demonstrates His wrath?
is He beautiful when He exercises judgement?
is He beautiful when He fights for you?
when Babylon falls, is it a beautiful sound?

the article states "The music should be suitable to the liturgical text to which it has been adapted"
what is "suitable" if we sing about the whore of Babylon being cast down? about the Devil being thrown into the lake of fire? about the wicked falling into the very pit they dig?

Spokenpassage · Apr 5, 2017

At least you guys are sharing your thoughts on this subject.

Dino246 · Apr 5, 2017

Spokenpassage said:

Great, but are you rethinking your position?

Spokenpassage · Apr 5, 2017

Dino246 said:

Not really, I am convicted that it is the only biblical position. I want to honor the worship of God by restricting it to what he has put forth in Scriptures.

posthuman · Apr 5, 2017

Spokenpassage said:

are you thinking about any of the questions i asked?

David dancing: normative or regulative? something else?

Spokenpassage · Apr 5, 2017

posthuman said:

C'mon, man. David was not normative in his worship. If David had walked into the Holiest Place and started dancing, he would die for disrespected the sacred dwelling of God. If he jumped on top the ark and started dancing, then he would die for disrespecting his holiness. If he became his own priest, not being in the lineage of Aaron and Levi, then he would be breaking the principle whether he danced or not. In church service, is it cooperate worship of we are looking into a stage of performers? Is it biblical if we replaced wine with water in the Lord's Supper? Is it biblical if we started baptizing unregenerate children? Is it biblical if we preached from Doctor Suess instead of the Scriptures to exhort and apply them in our lives? Is it biblical to sing Katy Perry in our service? Is it biblical to pray through Mary? Regulative Principle of Worship forbids such unbiblical practices as a way to worship God. Jesus got on the religious leaders of his day for putting aside the commandments of God for the tradition of men, is that not Regulative principle of worship? God has told us what is worship and we must follow what he says. We should always make proper use of Scriptures, prayer, sacraments, and fellowship of believers by assembling together, private or public these means of grace have only a divine authoritative use and not what we want to make it. We should never use Scripture to justify homosexuality, use prayer to add to our greed, use the sacraments to distort the meaning of the atonement, etc. We are to worship in truth and spirit, not in how we feel or what will boost our church attendance. God has given us a basic rule for worship. Dancing against the law? Doesn't appear so. Dancing allowable since it's not? Well, commanded worship in Israel had their place in the Tabernacle and Temple. Obviously, in the Tabernacle you are not going to be complacent. We learn the Regulative Principle of Worship by the death of Aaron's two sons. God has spoken clearly what is right and what is wrong.

truthhurts · Apr 5, 2017

Spokenpassage said:

C'mon, man. David was not normative in his worship. If David had walked into the Holiest Place and started dancing, he would die for disrespected the sacred dwelling of God. If he jumped on top the ark and started dancing, then he would die for disrespecting his holiness. If he became his own priest, not being in the lineage of Aaron and Levi, then he would be breaking the principle whether he danced or not. In church service, is it cooperate worship of we are looking into a stage of performers? Is it biblical if we replaced wine with water in the Lord's Supper? Is it biblical if we started baptizing unregenerate children? Is it biblical if we preached from Doctor Suess instead of the Scriptures to exhort and apply them in our lives? Is it biblical to sing Katy Perry in our service? Is it biblical to pray through Mary? Regulative Principle of Worship forbids such unbiblical practices as a way to worship God. Jesus got on the religious leaders of his day for putting aside the commandments of God for the tradition of men, is that not Regulative principle of worship? God has told us what is worship and we must follow what he says. We should always make proper use of Scriptures, prayer, sacraments, and fellowship of believers by assembling together, private or public these means of grace have only a divine authoritative use and not what we want to make it. We should never use Scripture to justify homosexuality, use prayer to add to our greed, use the sacraments to distort the meaning of the atonement, etc. We are to worship in truth and spirit, not in how we feel or what will boost our church attendance. God has given us a basic rule for worship. Dancing against the law? Doesn't appear so. Dancing allowable since it's not? Well, commanded worship in Israel had their place in the Tabernacle and Temple. Obviously, in the Tabernacle you are not going to be complacent. We learn the Regulative Principle of Worship by the death of Aaron's two sons. God has spoken clearly what is right and what is wrong.

How do you reconcile all this with the fact, David ate the shew bead in the temple and nothing happened to him?

Spokenpassage · Apr 5, 2017

truthhurts said:

I reconcile it with Jesus' answer, "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice." I answer with Hosea, "For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings."

Isaiah clearly shows that God despises outward adherence of the Law over the weightier matters:

"Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
'What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.

"'When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates; they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow’s cause.'"

(Isaiah 1:10-17)

What is good and right and necessary are over the positive laws of temple worship. If it were greater to lift your donkey out of a ditch in the Sabbath than to leave it, then it was permissible by Scripture, for Scripture regulates such things.

Spokenpassage · Apr 5, 2017

The positive laws of Israel was never meant to be above moral duty.

presidente · Apr 5, 2017

Spokenpassage said:

Why would you compare church services to the aspects of the temple that had to do with the ark and Holy of Holies? (And do you believe the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem is truly the dwelling place of God?)

In the Old Testament, Israel gathered as an assembly, an ekklesia. Shouldn't we consider what they did in their gatherings of their ekklesia when we consider Old Testament patterns regarding the ekklesia of Christ? The Psalms tell people to sing, rejoice, clap their hands, and dance. If you draw from Old Testament examples and commands, why not those rather than issues related specifically to the ark of the covenant.

I see those who promote the Regulative Principle of worship using scripture to prop up church services that are either man-made or draw from synagogue and temple liturgy without paying much attention to some of the specific commands to the actual New Testament churches on what to do in church.

I Corinthians 14 is the most lengthy passage we have on what to actually do in church gatherings aside form passages on the Lord's Supper. Why may speak? 'Every one of you.' The restriction is that it be done 'unto edifying.' The passage speaks of an individual singing a psalm. An individual doesn't have to be on a stage, but would you count that as a 'performance.'

Where is the idea that only clergy, or primarily clergy, must teach the word? The Bible doesn't teach that. It is assumed by much of Protestant tradition. Where does the New Testament teach that there must be one speaker giving a sermon? This seems to be assumed by Protestant tradition. The 'commandments of the Lord' for church meetings in I Corinthians 14 regulate how multiple speakers may prophesy. Some of the Reformed Christians redefine prophesying to mean the preaching of sermons, but how many of them have two or three sermons per meeting? The chapter teaches, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.'

If you are going to use a 'regulative principle' shouldn't you at least start with the very direct commands that tell what to do in church? Instead of having members of the congregation use their gifts in a meeting to edify one another, allowing tongues and interpretation, multiple prophecies, it seems like those who are into the 'Regulative Principle' are into the 'performance' of the one clergyman preaching a sermon. The 'regulative principle' is used as a justification for arguing about whether a psalter should be sung instead of hymns or repetitive choruses, arguing that scripture, like the psalms, should be sung in church. But then the parts of the psalms that say to dance, shout, clap, etc. aren't followed. It seems like the Regulative Principle is applied inconsistently, with a lot of cherry picking, while specific commands for church meeting in the New Testament itself are ignored.

The Bible does not teach that we are to gather together as a church to worship. One use of 'worship' is to translate a word that might be translated 'service', a word which could be used to refer to a wide variety of 'service' including clipping grass or liturgical activity. That's how we use the word 'worship.' The word most commonly translated 'worship' means to prostrate, to bow down with one's head toward the ground or floor. Jesus taught that they that prostate to the Father must prostate to him in spirit and in truth.

But the Bible doesn't teach that the purpose of our gatherings is to prostrate. I am not against it. It may be a good thing. The only possible reference to it I can find in reference to church gatherings is where the unbeliever hears all prophesying and falls on his face and says that God is truly among you.

Paul encouraged the believers to prophesy in church, and writes, '...if all prophesy...' and '...ye may all prophesy one by one...'. Shouldn't we be more concerned with these teachings to the New Testament church than loose arguments about worship from the Old Testament.

If people can go to church and die for not doing what the Bible says to do in church, might they die for not coveting to prophesy, for forbidding to speak with tongues, for not allowing speaking in tongues, not following rules about interpretation? Shouldn't we be more concerned with following what the New Testament says to actually do in church as opposed to arguing whether certain activities commanded on occasions in the OT in regard to the tabernacle or temple (dancing or playing instruments) should be done in our church meetings?

It seems like the Regulative Principle doesn't support the type of church meetings some of the vocal proponents of the Regulative Principle are in favor of.

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