Regulative Principle of Worship

[Willie-T]

What is up with you guys!

Simply pointing out that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I clearly see that you have no problem with acquiring, possessing, and displaying religious representations, so of course, you would want to use caution about things you might say concerning other people owning and displaying THEIR representations.

 

[hornetguy]

What is up with you guys!

Can you clarify? What do you mean by that? I thought we were having a discussion?

 

[Spokenpassage]

It seems to me that the intent is to not make a representation for the purpose of worship...

You haven't said anything about a crucifix... do you view that in the same way?

If the crucifix has a depiction of Christ, I reject it. If it suppose to represent Christ, I reject it. They are good reminders, however, of what Christ did.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Can you clarify? What do you mean by that? I thought we were having a discussion?

It seems that every move I make here, I am automatically a legalist and imposing tradition on people. Let's ponder what is being said by each other. You may actually convince me, but straight out calling me names (like some) without having a decent conversation as a child does loses discussion interests. We may employ these words in their proper context, but to blurt it out in frivolous manner is disrespectful.

 

[hornetguy]

If the crucifix has a depiction of Christ, I reject it. If it suppose to represent Christ, I reject it. They are good reminders, however, of what Christ did.

So, your understanding of that commandment is fairly narrow and strict.... what do you think the intent of the commandment was?

 

[hornetguy]

It seems that every move I make here, I am automatically a legalist and imposing tradition on people. Let's ponder what is being said by each other. You may actually convince me, but straight out calling me names (like some) without having a decent conversation as a child does loses discussion interests. We may employ these words in their proper context, but to blurt it out in frivolous manner is disrespectful.

I must have missed the name-calling... I would not do that. I think we can disagree on points of what the word says, without writing each other off.... discussing why we believe the way we do can be helpful, for both sides.

 

[presidente]

When it comes to images, 'graven images' were forbidden. Angels on the ark and other 3-D images were beaten, not graven. But they weren't to be worshipped. Some people are okay with pictures of Jesus because they aren't 3-D. It's a technicality.

Personally, I don't care for paintings of Jesus in church. We don't even know what He looked like, anyway. But I definitely do not want to see crucifixes.

It does seem strange to me that some Protestants will call the slightest thing idolatry. "Do you like reading novels? Do you like ice cream? Are they an idol to you?" But then some of them don't care about getting some kind of Hindu elephant-headed idol as 'art' and putting it in their house. I rented a house from a church-attending family that had a little statue like that on the shelf.

 

[Spokenpassage]

So, your understanding of that commandment is fairly narrow and strict.... what do you think the intent of the commandment was?

In redemption, a pointing to the righteousness found in Christ. But here are some good catechism questions from Benjamin Keach:

What is required in the second commandment?

The second commandment requires the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances, as God has appointed in His Word. (Deut. 32:46; Matt. 28:20; Deut. 12:32)

What is forbidden in the second commandment?

The second commandment forbids the worshipping of God by images, or any other way not appointed in His Word. (Rom. 1:22,23; Deut. 4:15,16; Matt. 15:9; Col. 2:18)

What are the reasons annexed to the second commandment?

The reasons annexed to the second commandment, are, God's sovereignty over us, His propriety in us, and the zeal He has for His own worship. (Ps. 45:11; Ex. 34:14; 1 Cor. 10:22)

 

[Willie-T]

It is a sad deal what is considered worship today in many circles...

Yes, in MANY ways. I think Jesus felt the same as he watched and listened to the chants and prayers of so many religious leaders.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Yes, in MANY ways. I think Jesus felt the same as he watched and listened to the chants and prayers of so many religious leaders.

Here we go again. I am a Pharisee I suppose...

 

[hornetguy]

Here we go again. I am a Pharisee I suppose...

Lighten up, Francis.... I don't think anyone has called you a Pharisee yet....

Pointing out the way the Pharisees acted is a valid contribution to the discussion, as I'm sure we ALL want to avoid that type of mentality..

This is the commandment.....

[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself [SUP][c][/SUP]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, [SUP]6 [/SUP]but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

I see the commandment as telling the Israelites that Jehovah God is a jealous God, and He doesn't want them (us) to worship ANY other god. And to that end, they (we) are not to make any kind of image or likeness with the intent of worshipping that image or likeness....

God expects us to worship HIM... and Him alone. If I wore a crucifix (I don't) with a likeness of Jesus on it, I would not be worshipping that likeness... it's simply a reminder of him, and what he did for us.

Now, having a statue or picture of Jesus that everyone goes and kneels down and prays to, or lights candles in front of, etc... is taking it right to the edge of wrong, if not OVER the edge... in my opinion.

If you think about it, in a very small way, those folks are NOT really worshipping the picture or statue, they are worshipping God/Jesus.... it's not like they are worshipping some other god, or image.... I do not say that to condone that practice, by any means, it's simply another way to look at it.

 

[Willie-T]

If the crucifix has a depiction of Christ, I reject it. If it suppose to represent Christ, I reject it. They are good reminders, however, of what Christ did.

Did you ever stop to ask yourself just HOW you think you know what a Crucifixion looks like? I honestly do think it was simply a straight pole (with no "T" cross-piece) since the Bible never states there was a cross-piece. But you envision what the Catholics display, don't you?

There are several other reasons I think it was a pole, but the point is that you HAD to have seen a representation, and believed what you looked at was an accurate display of the real deal......... or else simply a man on a "T" structure would violate nothing within you.

So, you have already accepted a representation as a true depiction of the scene at Golgotha. I find that more than interesting.

 

[hornetguy]

Did you ever stop to ask yourself just HOW you think you know what a Crucifixion looks like? I honestly do think it was simply a straight pole (with no "T" cross-piece) since the Bible never states there was a cross-piece. But you envision what the Catholics display, don't you?

There are several other reasons I think it was a pole, but the point is that you HAD to have seen a representation, and believed what you looked at was an accurate display of the real deal......... or else simply a man on a "T" structure would violate nothing within you.

So, you have already accepted a representation as a true depiction of the scene at Golgotha. I find that more than interesting.

hmmmm... a straight pole? You gotta 'splain that one to me sometime...

I think it was more like a capital T, instead of a lower case t, myself. Romans called it "crucifixion", and doesn't that word denote a cross-like structure? Like being "cruciform" in shape? I've never really studied the root words to see which came first.... I do know that the word "excruciating" has to do with crucifixion, or it came from that root word...

anyway, I digress.....

 

[Magenta]

Early Christian writers who speak of the shape of the particular gibbet on which Jesus died invariably describe it as having a cross-beam. For instance, the Epistle of Barnabas, which was certainly earlier than 135, and may have been of the 1st century AD, the time when the gospel accounts of the death of Jesus were written, likened it to the letter T (the Greek letter tau, which had the numeric value of 300), and to the position assumed by Moses in Exodus 17:11–12. Justin Martyr (100–165) explicitly says the cross of Christ was of two-beam shape: "That lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb." Irenaeus, who died around the end of the 2nd century, speaks of the cross as having "five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which the person rests who is fixed by the nails." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus

 

[Willie-T]

hmmmm... a straight pole? You gotta 'splain that one to me sometime...

I think it was more like a capital T, instead of a lower case t, myself. Romans called it "crucifixion", and doesn't that word denote a cross-like structure? Like being "cruciform" in shape? I've never really studied the root words to see which came first.... I do know that the word "excruciating" has to do with crucifixion, or it came from that root word...

anyway, I digress.....

I will one of these days. I think you will find the actual, physical experiments performed, and the effects on the human body between the two to be quite interesting.

 

[Magenta]

hmmmm... a straight pole? You gotta 'splain that one to me sometime...

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that.

 

[Willie-T]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that.

JW's also believe that you enter a door by turning a knob.... so do you. They believe the sun will rise tomorrow.... so do you.

Catholics believe we should assemble as the church...... so do you.

Basically, "So?"

I have discussed this with hundreds of people, and it mean nothing. The shape of the Roman torture device used means nothing at all.

 

[Magenta]

JW's also believe that you enter a door by turning a knob.... so do you. They believe the sun will rise tomorrow.... so do you.

Catholics believe we should assemble as the church...... so do you.

Basically, "So?"

I have discussed this with hundreds of people, and it mean nothing. The shape of the Roman torture device used means nothing at all.

Rubbish. You may as well tell me the truth means nothing. It may mean nothing to you, but do not presume to assume it means nothing to me.

 

[Willie-T]

Rubbish. You may as well tell me the truth means nothing. It may mean nothing to you, but do not presume to assume it means nothing to me.

Check out what this thread is all about..... then look at what you are actually advocating doing.

 

[Magenta]

JW's also believe that you enter a door by turning a knob.... so do you.

Nope. Some doors don't have knobs.