Response to Critique of Calvinism

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rauleetoe

Guest
#141
#141
tdrew777 said:
One of the criticisms offered by Rogers, Ronnie W. (in "Reflections of a Disenchanted Calvinist: The Disquieting Realities of Calvinism" CrossBooks. Kindle Edition) is the over-emphasis of the sovereignty of God. Because of the Calvinist view that man is passive in regeneration and justification, the responsibility for salvation of some, (hence for damnation of the rest), lays squarely on God's shoulders. That God might be responsible for damnation paints a horrifying picture of his role as father.

For as Arminian as one's theology might be, the same "problem" of people going to hell emerges. It does not take the responsibility for damnation off of God's shoulders because you slide it on to men's shoulders. God, even without a Calvinist definition of His sovereignty, could have chosen to create men differently, but did not. God could have ensured that no one went to hell under any reasonable Christian theological framework, but did not. Shifting soteriological sovereignty from God to man does not eliminate any problems and shifts the basis of salvation from grace to works.

Full ethical responsibility must be born by both creature and creator in any Christian theological framework. A high (Calvinistic) view of the sovereignty of God does not detract from the freedom of choice of individuals. God has decreed to work through the agency of human hearts. Christian good flows from a solid ethical character which God himself has restored over the power of sin. This good character overflows, assuring that external norms will be observed, not by external compulsion, but rather through an internal passion that burns in the heart of every true believer. This occurs precisely because of the sovereign Lordship of God. His authority and control do not suppress free will, but rather give free will its place in the human heart.

Context: Over the last several months I have had the blessing of having time to read some theology. Now, I am drawing theological conclusions. In this thread, I am trying to talk myself into being Calvinist, and inviting (informed) comments from the Christianchat peanut gallery. Call it a poor man's college education; you are invited to participate voluntarily as peer/teacher, as the shoe fits.
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You are not free to choose, God has either forordained you into reform theology..or perhaps you are predestined to be an Arminian..like me
 
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Abiding

Guest
#142
#142
eternally-gratefull said:

yes.

Because there can be no regeneration before justification.

and as for Gods grace being resisted, People do it all the time. Isreal did it for hundreds of years. As Jesus said, He wanted to take them as a mother hen takes her children, but they were not willing. they resisted his will and his grace.

But you know I still call ya my brother, because we both believe in salvation by grace,, and eternal security. because it is all of God.
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Act 7:51"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#143
#143
superdave5221 said:
If God knows all truth, then there is not any "chance".

Let me explain.

Suppose I am going to make a choice, either "A" or "B".

Suppose you say I chose "A". Is that a true statement? It is if I chose "A". If I chose "B", then it is not a true statement.

Let's say I chose "A". Then the statement that I chose "A" is a true statement.

But God knows ALL TRUTH! And so, God knows which choice I made, even though it is a free choice.

Abraham chose to sacrifice his son. That it a truth and God knew it because it is His nature to know ALL TRUTH.

It has nothing to do with seeing into the future or taking chances. Do you understand now?

This may sound a little contrived to you, and yet, it is no more contrived than saying that God chose certain people to be saved and others to be condemned, but yet He holds them accountable because they still "choose" whether to believe or not.
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Not sure I have ever heard it this way. It is an interesting thought though. I will have to consider it

I have always seen it that God looks at two people. He knows one person will respond this way, and the other person will respond that way,, He choses the one who will respond the way he desires.. that way his will is done.

Sometimes (with his children) he tries to get you to do something, even knowing you will not do it.. As a teaching tool. Because most times I have resisted. after the fact I realized my mistake and God was right. He taught me to trust him next time an dnot lean on my own understanding (or misunderstanding as the case must be)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#144
#144
Abiding said:
Act 7:51"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
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gets no clearer than this
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#145
#145
rauleetoe said:
You are not free to choose, God has either forordained you into reform theology..or perhaps you are predestined to be an Arminian..like me
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Or maybe just chose to stay away from religion, and become a child of God.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#146
#146
Who said you can have saving faith before regeneration.
Id say it happens pretty much at the same time

And as many as received Him He gave the power(saving faith/grace) to become the sons of God
 
my_adonai_

my_adonai_

Senior Member
#147
Mar 19, 2012
818
22
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#147
Ask God, God directs you to scripture, God gives us perception of what HE WANTS. done deal..
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#148
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
113
#148
Abiding said:
I didnt word it right. What i meant was that if i understand what they mean
by synergists. The synergists would know "without Him they could do nothing"
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mine was a rhetorical question. In other words if a synergist believed 'without Christ he could no NOTHING'; then by definition he would be a monergist because even his ability to 'co-operate' would be included in that 'nothing'.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#149
#149
Abiding said:
Who said you can have saving faith before regeneration.
Id say it happens pretty much at the same time

And as many as received Him He gave the power(saving faith/grace) to become the sons of God
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careful bro.. it said they already recieved him before he gave them the power. thus faith came before the power.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#150
#150
eternally-gratefull said:

Not sure I have ever heard it this way. It is an interesting thought though. I will have to consider it

I have always seen it that God looks at two people. He knows one person will respond this way, and the other person will respond that way,, He choses the one who will respond the way he desires.. that way his will is done.

Sometimes (with his children) he tries to get you to do something, even knowing you will not do it.. As a teaching tool. Because most times I have resisted. after the fact I realized my mistake and God was right. He taught me to trust him next time an dnot lean on my own understanding (or misunderstanding as the case must be)
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My personal experience seems to see God working on my heart since i can remember(very small child).
Then there was a day i surrendered.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#151
#151
crossnote said:
mine was a rhetorical question. In other words if a synergist believed 'without Christ he could no NOTHING'; then by definition he would be a monergist because even his ability to 'co-operate' would be included in that 'nothing'.
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to confusing for me, lets just stick to scripture and stay away from isms..lol
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#152
#152
Abiding said:
My personal experience seems to see God working on my heart since i can remember(very small child).
Then there was a day i surrendered.
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same here, i said the sinners prayer for over a month every night, until i finally was shown what it meant and what it was all about.. then i trusted christ, and knew I was saved forever. I was seeking all the time and God finally showed me what it was.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#153
#153
crossnote said:
mine was a rhetorical question. In other words if a synergist believed 'without Christ he could no NOTHING'; then by definition he would be a monergist because even his ability to 'co-operate' would be included in that 'nothing'.
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True, but He didnt say you cant do nothing end of story, but without me, "you" can do nothing. So theres still the "you" doing with(togather/synergy) Him

Im not saying we do any saving ourselves. Even in the context we are a piece of dead wood
but we need to abide on the vine for our life. Or else:p
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
#154
#154
crossnote said:
mine was a rhetorical question. In other words if a synergist believed 'without Christ he could no NOTHING'; then by definition he would be a monergist because even his ability to 'co-operate' would be included in that 'nothing'.
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Depends on who you asked..personally I believe the theological implication of monergism is always that God is a cosmic arm twister. Granted those who say that we who believe that God gave us the ability to choose(No one in their right mind would exclude the right to choose,as not derived or originally from God,as a free gift) Then if this automatically makes you semi pelagian aka a heretic...I could see why some would cling so tightly to monergism. I am quite interested in discovering there are many of those who are not calvinist and are arminian are actually Monergist or point to monergism.
I am for sure a synergist, my understanding of monergism makes it seem that God makes you become saved,and that to me would make calvinism the only way then..if I were to be a monergist,five point calvinism would surely follow as the logical conclusion. Just from my understanding of what monergism is. However I have met some who say they are vehemently against calvinism..who are still monergist,which to me is an oxymoron in and of itself.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#155
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
83
#155
Abiding said:
Tribesman has confessed many times that He absolutely refuses to
accept anything but what he thinks. Ive provided scripture.
It wont do any good because hes determined to refuse it in advance
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Here you are again, bearing false witness. I've never "confessed" such a thing.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#158
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
113
#158
Abiding said:
So whats the average time for people pushing the refresh button....i wait about 15 seconds:p
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Refresh button? As you can see the lag in my responses these posts are going up way faster than I can read.:p
 
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Abiding

Guest
#159
#159
tribesman said:
Here you are again, bearing false witness. I've never "confessed" such a thing.
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Yes you have many times said you absolutely refuse to believe in any kind prevenient grace.
What do you mean here i go again? Tribesman dont ever say again i bear false witness.
Its hard enuf right now to even talk with you.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#160
#160
Popular thread ya' guys got here.
 
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