Reverse the charges
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You mean other than it's flat out false?
It promotes an incorrect gospel - it makes Christianity a laffing stock in the world by all the false predictions made in the past century and keeps on trucking to the next stellar event or newspaper headline, hurricane, earthquake yada yada.
It takes symbols and turns them into literal rather than what the symbols represent - this again makes the world shake their heads and brings shame to the name of Christ.
It promotes an incorrect gospel - it makes Christianity a laffing stock in the world by all the false predictions made in the past century and keeps on trucking to the next stellar event or newspaper headline, hurricane, earthquake yada yada.
It takes symbols and turns them into literal rather than what the symbols represent - this again makes the world shake their heads and brings shame to the name of Christ.
Thanks for the bump 7skewered
How to debate 101
What you do is take the first statement of say the opening post and use logical argumentation to dispute or refute it:
"I see the false charge of "replacement" theology is being bandied around against preterism along with the charge of "antisemitism"."
Response - no, preterism is replacement theology because God promised the land to the nation of Israel forever as is written here:
Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
See how this works instead of going from thread to thread in a snit heckling....
How to debate 101
What you do is take the first statement of say the opening post and use logical argumentation to dispute or refute it:
"I see the false charge of "replacement" theology is being bandied around against preterism along with the charge of "antisemitism"."
Response - no, preterism is replacement theology because God promised the land to the nation of Israel forever as is written here:
Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
See how this works instead of going from thread to thread in a snit heckling....
Outstanding points and very well stated. This isn't even a topic that can be debated. There is no separate plan for Israel and the Church in terms of salvation. From 70 AD to 1948 there was NO ISRAEL, there were only scattered people who may or may not be able to loosely tie some connection back to ancient Israel.
Today, there is only the "Church," the "New Jerusalem." Either you believe in Christ and are part of this body or you aren't. At the moment, today's Israel (which is 90% atheist) is no more God's chosen people than the nation of _____ (pick one). I love the Jewish people and sympathize with all they've been through but I have no desire to see them re-institute the Law and temple system. That would be a slap in the face and disaster.
Nobody comes to the Father except by Me (Jesus). This applies to the Jews as it does everyone else. There will not be a change in this method now or into the future. Now perhaps God has a plan to change today's Israel into a Christian nation. If He does, great, because that is the only way they are getting to heaven.
You're right. I jumped on that Fox News story about Sep 23 and starting commenting on it on their web site. So many agnostics and atheists were on there just trashing the church as a bunch of dummies with their rapture theories and end of the world nonsense. These dispensationalists are giving us all a bad name because their doctrines are false. Only preterism solves EVERYTHING.
u know ive been talking with these guys u see..... on the other thread about matthew 25:46 and other verses and now i see what u are talking about Locutus and PlainWord........
this is just weird and complicated...... matthew 25:46 destroys the entire system it seems. only two options. maybe someone will have a decent explanation u see.
this is just weird and complicated...... matthew 25:46 destroys the entire system it seems. only two options. maybe someone will have a decent explanation u see.
At the time of refomation the outward flesh of a Jew was no longer needed in a speacil way to annouce beforhand that christ as the Son of man was coming in the flesh. The veil was rent destroying the temporal need of a temple seen used to represent Christ to temple of God not seen.He dwells in the heart of new creatures as belivers. We have that authority in us but it is not of us just as it was not of them as to the inward Jews including the grafted in gentiles as one born of the Spirit of Christ .Not all Jews are considered his bride. Gentiles and Jews that have become Christians is the new name he propmised to name his bride the church. Not all Christians as the spiritual born again Isreal are of Isreal .Calling them Israel is a choice we make.It would not be any difference whether a Christian is called a Jew or a Jew is called a Chrisian both have the defintion of the names God named.No law that say we cannot . The Jews simply revert back to thier gentile foundation. No division betwen the two
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So there was a remnant back when Paul wrote, and then according to you there is another remnant waiting to be saved "soon".
You can't have it both ways, a remnant and all Israel saved.
And you have failed to address what Paul said - the elect had obtained "what Israel sought after" - did they get a physical dirt based kingdom?
Plainly the answer is no - so the promises of God were not about a physical kingdom.
Your logic is not logical...
You can't have it both ways, a remnant and all Israel saved.
And you have failed to address what Paul said - the elect had obtained "what Israel sought after" - did they get a physical dirt based kingdom?
Plainly the answer is no - so the promises of God were not about a physical kingdom.
Your logic is not logical...
We are a remnant who are Saved and we did the nation did get "dirt" G-d gave it back to us. What do you do about the Jews as a whole. A people displaced for almost 2000 years, a dead language brought back to life, over 6,000,000 of us live in Israel and we keep making Aliyah. Maybe G-d did not know your theology and was was suppose to keep His people! As a Nation in addition to His remnant.....
Gonna be kinda hard to measure the temple in 96 AD (Rev 11) don't ya think? Also, the tribulations the 7 churches were enduring were far more pronounced under Nero than Domitian. Domitian only dabbled in persecuting the churches. The real persecution of churches outside of Rome (like the 7 in Asia Minor) came at the hands of the Jews living there. This persecution stopped when these Jews returned to Jerusalem and were trapped there.
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Perhaps no passage in Revelation is more controversial than chapter 11. There is a wide diversity of viewpoints regarding the interpretation of this chapter, but most of this occurs because men try to symbolize or spiritualize the city, the temple, and the events that are portrayed here. Once again when the passage is taken in its normal or literal meaning much of the diversity immediately vanishes because the literal method provides a check on the imaginations of men and gives an intelligent understanding of the passage. Unless, of course, one is biased against the supernatural elements of these verses. As John Walvoord writes:
The guiding lines which govern the exposition to follow regard this chapter as a legitimate prophetic utterance in which the terms are taken normally. Hence, the great city of 11:8 is identified as the literal city of Jerusalem. The time periods are taken as literal time periods. The two witnesses are interpreted as two individuals. The three and half days are taken literally. The earthquake is a literal earthquake. The seven thousand men who are slain by the earthquake are seven thousand individuals who die in the catastrophe. The death of the witnesses is literal as are their resurrection and ascension.140
Again it is important to keep in mind that chapter 11:1-13 does not advance the chronological sequence of the prophetic events, but parenthetically describes: (a) the ministries of the two witnesses, which occur over a three-and-a-half-year period, and (b) the spiritual condition of the temple and Jerusalem as it will exist in the Tribulation. With 11:14 and following the last woe and the seventh trumpet are introduced along with heaven’s response because of what this means to the kingdom of God. Not until chapter 15 will the chronological developments continue again, namely the pouring out of the seven vials which constitutes the seventh trumpet and the last woe.
The Measuring Rod and the Temple of God
(11:1-2)
Verse 1. “And there was given me a measuring rod like a staff.” “Measuring rod” is kalamos, “a measuring reed or rod.” This came from a species of cane that grew in the Jordan Valley to a height of 12-20 feet. It was very straight, light, and was cut and used for measuring rods, usually 10 feet long. It was known as the “giant reed.”
“Like a staff.” Staff is rJabdos, a long rod or staff. It was used on a journey, or was carried by a ruler, or by a judge or umpire. In fact, a rJabdoucos was one who carried a rod or staff as an umpire or judge. Here John is no longer merely a witness, he is now to become actively involved, a kind of rJabdoucos to measure or judge the temple for God.
“Arise and measure.” “Measure” is the Greek word metrew and means “to measure either a space, number, or value.” Here it signifies that (a) this all belongs to God, the temple, the altar, and the worship involved, and (b) that he was to measure or judge the value, worth, and character of the standards of the temple and its worship and the people therein.
“Temple” here is naos and refers only to the Holy of Holies, and the Holy Place, part of the whole temple complex, the %ieron, the name used of the entire temple at Jerusalem. It presupposes the rest of the temple areas. But only the priests could serve in the naos.
“Altar” here refers to the brazen altar in the court where others could come to make their sacrifices.
Why is John sent to measure the temple? This is saying in effect that man and his worship are always judged by the standards of God. Further, believers, like John who have that standard, are responsible to judge by that standard in order to avoid apostasy and are to be instruments to turn men to Christ and true worship. Regardless of what man thinks, the only thing that counts is God’s judgment and standard of both our lives and our worship. As mentioned above, note that this measuring reed, the kalamos, was usually 10 feet long—far taller than any man. This suggest to us that our worship and character must come up to God’s standards, or man faces rejection and loss as it occurs here (1 Cor. 3:11-15; 11:17f; Heb. 10:23-39).
bottom line:
Thus, the strong wording of Revelation 11:2 and the contrast with verse 1 stresses that God rejects this whole religious system because it will be a product of the times of the Gentiles and a false Messiah. It will, however, have another 42 months to operate and then God will establish the true temple.
source and rest of article
The guiding lines which govern the exposition to follow regard this chapter as a legitimate prophetic utterance in which the terms are taken normally. Hence, the great city of 11:8 is identified as the literal city of Jerusalem. The time periods are taken as literal time periods. The two witnesses are interpreted as two individuals. The three and half days are taken literally. The earthquake is a literal earthquake. The seven thousand men who are slain by the earthquake are seven thousand individuals who die in the catastrophe. The death of the witnesses is literal as are their resurrection and ascension.140
Again it is important to keep in mind that chapter 11:1-13 does not advance the chronological sequence of the prophetic events, but parenthetically describes: (a) the ministries of the two witnesses, which occur over a three-and-a-half-year period, and (b) the spiritual condition of the temple and Jerusalem as it will exist in the Tribulation. With 11:14 and following the last woe and the seventh trumpet are introduced along with heaven’s response because of what this means to the kingdom of God. Not until chapter 15 will the chronological developments continue again, namely the pouring out of the seven vials which constitutes the seventh trumpet and the last woe.
The Measuring Rod and the Temple of God
(11:1-2)
Verse 1. “And there was given me a measuring rod like a staff.” “Measuring rod” is kalamos, “a measuring reed or rod.” This came from a species of cane that grew in the Jordan Valley to a height of 12-20 feet. It was very straight, light, and was cut and used for measuring rods, usually 10 feet long. It was known as the “giant reed.”
“Like a staff.” Staff is rJabdos, a long rod or staff. It was used on a journey, or was carried by a ruler, or by a judge or umpire. In fact, a rJabdoucos was one who carried a rod or staff as an umpire or judge. Here John is no longer merely a witness, he is now to become actively involved, a kind of rJabdoucos to measure or judge the temple for God.
“Arise and measure.” “Measure” is the Greek word metrew and means “to measure either a space, number, or value.” Here it signifies that (a) this all belongs to God, the temple, the altar, and the worship involved, and (b) that he was to measure or judge the value, worth, and character of the standards of the temple and its worship and the people therein.
“Temple” here is naos and refers only to the Holy of Holies, and the Holy Place, part of the whole temple complex, the %ieron, the name used of the entire temple at Jerusalem. It presupposes the rest of the temple areas. But only the priests could serve in the naos.
“Altar” here refers to the brazen altar in the court where others could come to make their sacrifices.
Why is John sent to measure the temple? This is saying in effect that man and his worship are always judged by the standards of God. Further, believers, like John who have that standard, are responsible to judge by that standard in order to avoid apostasy and are to be instruments to turn men to Christ and true worship. Regardless of what man thinks, the only thing that counts is God’s judgment and standard of both our lives and our worship. As mentioned above, note that this measuring reed, the kalamos, was usually 10 feet long—far taller than any man. This suggest to us that our worship and character must come up to God’s standards, or man faces rejection and loss as it occurs here (1 Cor. 3:11-15; 11:17f; Heb. 10:23-39).
bottom line:
Thus, the strong wording of Revelation 11:2 and the contrast with verse 1 stresses that God rejects this whole religious system because it will be a product of the times of the Gentiles and a false Messiah. It will, however, have another 42 months to operate and then God will establish the true temple.
source and rest of article
I didn't write the article didn't you notice?
what happened to the two witnesses in your version?
what happened to the two witnesses in your version?
As for the two witnesses, unfortunately we have almost no writings from the era except for Josephus who wasn't there until he came with Titus in early 70 AD. Josephus records a Jesus, Son of Ananus who certainly fits and is also who I believe is mentioned by Peter as the prophet in Acts 3. The other witness could be James, the brother of Jesus, who was killed by the religious leaders the day Vespasian arrived.
However, uncertainty about the identity of the witnesses does not defeat the preterist view.
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hey there member of the preterist club...
you have overlooked my response
and as for your response regarding the 2 witnesses?
puhleeeeeeeeze...(not in the mood to be serious but this isn't snearious either)
let's face it. preterists will overlook anything not agreeing with their been there, done that timetable and if that doesn't fly, then the obvious 'uncertainty' filter kicks in
yup
I know about Josephus. I gotz a ginormous book by him.
you have overlooked my response
and as for your response regarding the 2 witnesses?
puhleeeeeeeeze...(not in the mood to be serious but this isn't snearious either)
let's face it. preterists will overlook anything not agreeing with their been there, done that timetable and if that doesn't fly, then the obvious 'uncertainty' filter kicks in
yup
I know about Josephus. I gotz a ginormous book by him.
Jesus is seated on His throne right now hebrews 8:1-4
acts also mentions how Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father u see.
acts 2:30-36
revelation 1:5-6
how can u say Jesus is not on the throne??????? read galatians 4:24-31
this is what Paul wrote:
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
acts also mentions how Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father u see.
acts 2:30-36
revelation 1:5-6
how can u say Jesus is not on the throne??????? read galatians 4:24-31
this is what Paul wrote:
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
hey there member of the preterist club...
you have overlooked my response
and as for your response regarding the 2 witnesses?
puhleeeeeeeeze...(not in the mood to be serious but this isn't snearious either)
let's face it. preterists will overlook anything not agreeing with their been there, done that timetable and if that doesn't fly, then the obvious 'uncertainty' filter kicks in
yup
I know about Josephus. I gotz a ginormous book by him.
you have overlooked my response
and as for your response regarding the 2 witnesses?
puhleeeeeeeeze...(not in the mood to be serious but this isn't snearious either)
let's face it. preterists will overlook anything not agreeing with their been there, done that timetable and if that doesn't fly, then the obvious 'uncertainty' filter kicks in
yup
I know about Josephus. I gotz a ginormous book by him.
To be honest there are some passages such as Revelation 19:18 that can also be said that are hard to deal with for futurism, since horses and their riders are mentioned, and that technology is already out of date.
The same is true for Isaiah 2:4 and Zechariah 14:15 among other passages.
So which ever side you choose, there will be some 'splaining to do. I just think the futurist has it a lot easier.