Romans 7 man not saved.

Kerry · Jul 21, 2014

You are correct a sinner is just that a sinner. They roll in sin and enjoy sin, they tell their friends about the sin they did last night and laugh. Paul is not talking about a sinner, but a man that loves God and is trying his best, but yet found captive to sin by trying to keep the law. Why, because faith in the law is not accepted only faith in the work of the cross.

Atwood · Jul 21, 2014

gotime said:

If we were pieces of furniture, then he would be the upholstery by Romans 13. Put on the Lord Jesus.

Well, I have been trying to persuade you that the Lord Jesus does a better job of saving than those who deny eternal security will admit. I actually believe that He will save His people from their sins.

I also believe that in many ways we all stumble in this life, and that he who has suffered in the flesh (died) has ceased from sin. I also believe that the new nature of the Christian cannot sin, but we are capable of living out the Old Man flesh until we die.

No, there should be no hard feelings. May the Lord bless you in every way.

Linda70 · Jul 21, 2014

An unregenerate man would not "delight in the law of God in the inner man". An unregenerate (lost) person sees no reason to be transformed, nor to be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus. Paul was saved and was describing his struggle with the power of sin in his life.

Romans: Verse by Verse (Newell)
Romans 7:22

Verses 22, 23: For I delight in the Law of God after the inward man: but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
Here is first, delight, second, discernment, and third, defeat.

1. First, delight: in God's Law, Paul delights--this is a strong and inclusive word. And, after the inward man,-- thus revealing himself as regenerate throughout this struggle: No unregenerate man would say, (unless profane) "It is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me:" For,

(1) An unregenerate man is not conscious of a moral power which is not himself: for he has but the one nature,--he is "in the flesh."

(2) An unregenerate man could not say, "What I hate, that I do." For only born-again people hate evil. "Ye that love Jehovah, hate evil" (Ps. 97.10), and David could say of him- self, "I hate every false way" (Ps 119:104). But of the wicked he wrote, "He abhorreth not evil" (Ps 36:4).

(3) An unregenerate man could not say, "What I would not, that I do,--I consent to the Law that it is good." An unregenerate man resists the Law, that he may "justify him- self." A regenerate man consents to the Law's being good, no matter how it judges what he finds himself doing! (verse 16).

(4) The unregenerate man could not say, "I delight in the Law of God after the inward man." For by nature all men are "children of wrath," "alienated from the life of God"; and "the mind of the flesh is enmity against God, not subject to the Law of God." Before his conversion, Saul, as we saw, could help to stone Stephen,--"verily thinking he ought" to do it; but Paul was not then seeking holiness (as the man in Romans Seven is), but was secure in his own righteousness as a legalist.

(5) The unregenerate man could not say, "Wretched man that I am!" For he could not see his wretchedness! His whole life was to build up that which was the flesh.

(6) If you claim that the "wretched man" of Romans Seven is an unregenerate man under conviction of sin, the complete reply is, that this man of Romans Seven is crying for deliverance, --not from sin's guilt and penalty, but from its power. Not for forgiveness of sins, but help against indwelling sin. This man is exercised, not about the day of judgment, but about a condition of bondage to that which he hates. The Jews on the Day of Pentecost, and the jailor at Philippi, cried out in terror, "What shall we do to be saved?" It was guilt and danger they felt. But this man in Romans Seven cries, "Who shall deliver me" (not from guilt) but, "from this body of death?" No one but a quickened soul ever knows about a "body of death"!

(7) But perhaps the most striking argument of all is in the closing words of Chapter Seven--verse 25: "Therefore then I myself with the mind, am subject to God's Law, but with the flesh to sin's law." Here we have both spiritual life and consciousness; also, discernment. and discrimination of both his real true new self, which chooses God and His will and of the flesh which will continue to choose "sin's law": and all this conclusion after he has realized deliverance from the "body of death" through our Lord Jesus Christ!

2. Second, discernment: I see a different law in my members. It is the unwillingness to own this different law, this settled state of enmity, toward God, in our own members, that so terribly bars spiritual blessing and advancement. As long as we think lightly of the fact of the presence with us of the fallen nature, (I speak of Christians) we are far from deliverance. In the law of leper-cleansing (Le 13:2 ff), "if a man shall have in the skin of his flesh a rising," or even "a white rising"--he was unclean. (See the various degrees of the plague.) But, "If the leprosy break out abroad in the skin, and the leprosy cover all the skin of him that hath the plague from his head even to his feet, as far as appeareth to the priest; then the priest shall look; and, behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: it is all turned white: he is clean"! It is significant that at the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, (Mt 8:1-4) two things should be there: (1) A leper --showing the Law could cleanse no one. (2) A leper, as Luke the physician tells us, "full of leprosy" (Lu 5:12). It is because people do not recognize their all-badness that they do not find Christ all in all to them.

3. Third, defeat: There is no strength or power in our- selves against the law of sin which is in our members. God has left us as much dependent on Christ's work for our deliverance as for our forgiveness! It is wholly because we died with Him at the cross, both to sin and to the whole legal principle, that sin's power, for those in Christ, is broken.

gotime · Jul 21, 2014

Im back. I have no hard feelings because I am sure you are trying to help me and this I thank you for. but Obviously we see it differently.

notice the prelude.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

notice become dead to the law by Jesus. so that we can be married to Jesus. that we bring forth "fruit" unto God.

Is sin fruit to God? no this is the premise that the Romans 7 man is built on.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

This verse is a description of the Romans 7 man to the "T". sins by the law worked in our members bringing forth death.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

notice all the elements of verse 5 are in the Romans 7 man.

Sin in our members
causing motions of sin.
fruit of death.

notice fruit of Death does being married to Christ bring forth death? no so this condition can not possible be saved.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

and now the Romans 8 man who is delivered form the law. now we are dead to what held us captive. why? so we should serve in newness of the Spirit. (romans 8) and not the oldness of the letter/law.

Notice the "but" notice this is different to verse 5.

verse 5 is a summery of verse 14-24.
verse 6 is a summery of verse 25- end chapter 8.

between them a "but".

one brings fruit to death the other Fruit to God and life.

gotime · Jul 21, 2014

Linda70 said:

May I suggest that you focus is in the wrong place.

Many in Israel were not saved or converted yet they did delight in the law.

SolidGround · Jul 21, 2014

Kerry said:

Another great post!
I remember those days of being proud of my sins.
I remember them and hang my head in shame.

But God has cast them far as the east is from the west!
Thank You Lord!

My struggles now are in striving forward in good works, and not being distracted by worldly attachments (politics, culture, money).

Kerry · Jul 21, 2014

Insanity = doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result

gotime · Jul 21, 2014

and here again:

Rom_6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Fruit leads to death but once free form sin we have fruit to holiness. sin is not holiness.

Linda70 · Jul 21, 2014

gotime said:

My focus, and the focus of William Newell's commentary on Romans 7 is NOT in the wrong place. The unregenerate (lost) who you say "did delight in the law" were the self-righteous, hypocritical Pharisees and Jesus was continually rebuking them for their hypocrisy. Matthew 23 is a good example of this.

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matthew 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Matthew 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Matthew 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Matthew 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

The error of the "legalistic"/hypocritical Pharisees was not their zeal to obey the Word of God. They had no such zeal. They had zeal, rather, to make up their own religious system and to rule over the people. It is important to note that Jesus Christ did NOT rebuke the Pharisees for their zeal in obeying the details of the law (Matthew 23:23). He rebuked them for supplanting the Word of God with man-made tradition and thereby making the Word of God of none effect (Matthew 15:1-9), for rejecting Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:22-24), for perverting the Gospel (Matthew 23:15), for self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14), and for gross hypocrisy (Matthew 23:23; Mark 12:15; Luke 12:1).

Are these "Pharisees" the "many in Israel" you claim who "were not saved or converted yet they did delight in the law"? The Apostle Paul vehemently fought against this "legalism" and "hypocrisy" of the Pharisees. Romans 7 describes the struggle a REGENERATE person has with the power of sin in his life...Paul was not describing the life of an unregenerate person in Romans 7.

gotime · Jul 21, 2014

Linda70 said:

My focus, and the focus of William Newell's commentary on Romans 7 is NOT in the wrong place. The unregenerate (lost) who you say "did delight in the law" were the self-righteous, hypocritical Pharisees and Jesus was continually rebuking them for their hypocrisy. Matthew 23 is a good example of this.

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matthew 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Matthew 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Matthew 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Matthew 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

The error of the "legalistic"/hypocritical Pharisees was not their zeal to obey the Word of God. They had no such zeal. They had zeal, rather, to make up their own religious system and to rule over the people. It is important to note that Jesus Christ did NOT rebuke the Pharisees for their zeal in obeying the details of the law (Matthew 23:23). He rebuked them for supplanting the Word of God with man-made tradition and thereby making the Word of God of none effect (Matthew 15:1-9), for rejecting Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:22-24), for perverting the Gospel (Matthew 23:15), for self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14), and for gross hypocrisy (Matthew 23:23; Mark 12:15; Luke 12:1).

Are these "Pharisees" the "many in Israel" you claim who "were not saved or converted yet they did delight in the law"? The Apostle Paul vehemently fought against this "legalism" and "hypocrisy" of the Pharisees. Romans 7 describes the struggle a REGENERATE person has with the power of sin in his life...Paul was not describing the life of an unregenerate person in Romans 7.

you posted this "An unregenerate man would not "delight in the law of God in the inner man"."

I showed you that there was in Paul's day people who delighted in the law of God who were unregenerate. and Romans 7 shows unregenerate people who delight in the law yet have no power (because they are without Christ) to keep the law.

You don't like what I say because you want to be able to say your saved while still living in Sin. and Romans 7 reveals that such a person is without Christ and in need of Christ.

Linda70 · Jul 21, 2014

gotime said:

And I showed you that those who you claim to "delight in the law of God in the inner man" were the "legalistic" and "hypocritical" Pharisees who were UNREGENERATE. These same "legalistic" and "hypocritical' Pharisees still exist today...in the "lawkeepers" group.

I reject what you say because what you say is not biblical.

fredjames · Jul 21, 2014

gotime said:

Peace be with you, beloved gotime and the HOLY SPIRIT has taught you well about Romans chapter 7 and 8, helping you see clearly what Apostle Paul is saying to all of us as witnesses of Kingdom knowledge faith, to the right way and also to our right practices.

In Sir Paul's confession, as he was even more knowledge filled in the Law of GOD, given to Moses, now after being saved, realize the previous battle with sin, struggled as a slave living in carnality, who was unable to see and understand GOD'S righteousness, even in the Law of Moses, but was only drawn to one's own perspective in understanding and practices regarding them. He confesses that previously he was not at all at peace being a Pharisee in the Law of Moses, who was ruled by carnality and a slave to sin.

Let us all go back and start from Chapter 1-7, as in summary, i am guided to remind and to stir up memory of believers as i was, in order for all of us to witness clearly by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS's Grace and Truth. These chapters start of by, GOD's creation and men's creation of fantasy GOD's Way and men's own way, GOD's righteousness and men's 'self' righteousness, GOD's work and men's strength work, GOD's freedom and men's freedom slavery.

That liberty only comes from the 'Law of SPIRIT of life', to set free those in CHRIST, who have the SPIRIT knowledge of life and practice them in faith, who have come in to live to things of the Spirit, written in the New Testament and as Sir Paul finalizes in Romans chapter 8, verse 1 and onwards:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in CHRIST JESUS. ...................."

Please clearly notice Sir Paul's beginning words in chapter 8 verse 1, is a continuation from the end of chapter 7. He actually mentions about his past Pharisee life under the law of Moses and in carnality and a slave to sin in chapter 7.

A matter of fact in support to someone's reply to this tread that sin and death were and are now still dominant over the Jews, who were under the Law of Moses and ignorant born again, still living to the things of the flesh, to the pleasure and necessity of this world.

And together also, sin and death were and are still dominant over the Gentiles, who were and are under the Law of GOD, which naturally are written in their conscience and ignorant born again, still living again to the things of the flesh, to the pleasure and necessity of this world.

i was like many Christian, still living in my sins and to witnesses Romans Chapter 7 was my only tower of refuge, in order to be excused. At that time, i did not understand Romans chapter 8, even though i have read them again. So i use to take other Scripture out of context and what is seen in reality and justify my innocence and also defeat my convicting and guilty conscience from within me.

Then when GOD opened my eyes to understand Romans chapter 8 and by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, i was able to witness my poverty in faith knowledge and my deception to deviate, a false, witnessing to others and cheating true salvation.

Further down chapter 8, verse 12,13 justifies about those who are brothers and what are they to watch out for and not to fall once again to the things of carnality/the flesh?

As it is written to those who are in disbelieve that;

"HE did not use harshness and force.................................."

Many will not understand you, where you are coming from, as i know that you are gaining spiritual sound doctrine knowledge of the Holy Bible from the Teacher, the HOLY SPIRIT, as you do 'seek', regarding the New Covenant. So, i encourage you, not to debate or content with them who do not see, but stand firm and stick to, in further discussions, only be based on the posted Tread matter.

i do see you and few others, maturing towards spiritual knowledge faith and also note that they also require us to practice them, for they are the very sowing to the things of the SPIRIT, and they are counted to us as our action faith, in confirmation to James confession in his epistle in the Hew Covenant of the Holy Bible.

No offense to anyone but blessed spiritual Kingdom knowledge encouragement in reminder and in stiring up memoy, to all HIS beloved lambs and sheep.

May the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, bless you all with HIS kindness and peace.

'HE came, HE lived, HE died and HE relived and HE is here now and forevermore, Amen'. In order for you and me and others to grow as 'one' in knowledge, in order to live and worship the FATHER, who is SPIRIT, who calls true worshippers of HIS, to worship HIM, in spirit and truth and be together with HIM forever and ever, Amen.

gotime · Jul 21, 2014

fredjames said:

Peace be with you, beloved gotime and the HOLY SPIRIT has taught you well about Romans chapter 7 and 8, helping you see clearly what Apostle Paul is saying to all of us as witnesses of Kingdom knowledge faith, to the right way and also to our right practices.

In Sir Paul's confession, as he was even more knowledge filled in the Law of GOD, given to Moses, now after being saved, realize the previous battle with sin, struggled as a slave living in carnality, who was unable to see and understand GOD'S righteousness, even in the Law of Moses, but was only drawn to one's own perspective in understanding and practices regarding them. He confesses that previously he was not at all at peace being a Pharisee in the Law of Moses, who was ruled by carnality and a slave to sin.

Let us all go back and start from Chapter 1-7, as in summary, i am guided to remind and to stir up memory of believers as i was, in order for all of us to witness clearly by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS's Grace and Truth. These chapters start of by, GOD's creation and men's creation of fantasy GOD's Way and men's own way, GOD's righteousness and men's 'self' righteousness, GOD's work and men's strength work, GOD's freedom and men's freedom slavery.

That liberty only comes from the 'Law of SPIRIT of life', to set free those in CHRIST, who have the SPIRIT knowledge of life and practice them in faith, who have come in to live to things of the Spirit, written in the New Testament and as Sir Paul finalizes in Romans chapter 8, verse 1 and onwards:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in CHRIST JESUS. ...................."

Please clearly notice Sir Paul's beginning words in chapter 8 verse 1, is a continuation from the end of chapter 7. He actually mentions about his past Pharisee life under the law of Moses and in carnality and a slave to sin in chapter 7.

A matter of fact in support to someone's reply to this tread that sin and death were and are now still dominant over the Jews, who were under the Law of Moses and ignorant born again, still living to the things of the flesh, to the pleasure and necessity of this world.

And together also, sin and death were and are still dominant over the Gentiles, who were and are under the Law of GOD, which naturally are written in their conscience and ignorant born again, still living again to the things of the flesh, to the pleasure and necessity of this world.

i was like many Christian, still living in my sins and to witnesses Romans Chapter 7 was my only tower of refuge, in order to be excused. At that time, i did not understand Romans chapter 8, even though i have read them again. So i use to take other Scripture out of context and what is seen in reality and justify my innocence and also defeat my convicting and guilty conscience from within me.

Then when GOD opened my eyes to understand Romans chapter 8 and by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, i was able to witness my poverty in faith knowledge and my deception to deviate, a false, witnessing to others and cheating true salvation.

Further down chapter 8, verse 12,13 justifies about those who are brothers and what are they to watch out for and not to fall once again to the things of carnality/the flesh?

As it is written to those who are in disbelieve that;

"HE did not use harshness and force.................................."

Many will not understand you, where you are coming from, as i know that you are gaining spiritual sound doctrine knowledge of the Holy Bible from the Teacher, the HOLY SPIRIT, as you do 'seek', regarding the New Covenant. So, i encourage you, not to debate or content with them who do not see, but stand firm and stick to, in further discussions, only be based on the posted Tread matter.

i do see you and few others, maturing towards spiritual knowledge faith and also note that they also require us to practice them, for they are the very sowing to the things of the SPIRIT, and they are counted to us as our action faith, in confirmation to James confession in his epistle in the Hew Covenant of the Holy Bible.

No offense to anyone but blessed spiritual Kingdom knowledge encouragement in reminder and in stiring up memoy, to all HIS beloved lambs and sheep.

May the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, bless you all with HIS kindness and peace.

'HE came, HE lived, HE died and HE relived and HE is here now and forevermore, Amen'. In order for you and me and others to grow as 'one' in knowledge, in order to live and worship the FATHER, who is SPIRIT, who calls true worshippers of HIS, to worship HIM, in spirit and truth and be together with HIM forever and ever, Amen.

Thank you for the encouragement.

I also remember when I used to teach and give bible studies teaching that Romans 7 was normal for the saved Christian. But when God opened my eyes I broke down and saw myself a sinner in need of Jesus.

The freedom this brought the understanding and the peace I can not explain. I thought to share with my friends and Family what God had done for me and that He would do it for them, Yet they acted as if I was preaching some heretical teaching. Much as has happened here.

Yet I will continue to teach this wonderful truth as it is in Jesus because there are always some who will hear and find the same peace.

Blessings.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 21, 2014

where do people come to this conclusion?

1. Paul spoke present tense
2. Paul spoke of a war in his mind between God and his flesh
3. Paul said it is no longer he who sins (unlike before he was saved) but his flesh.

carnal is just a fany word for selfish desires. it is promoting self. A Christian still struggles with this, he does NOT all of a sudden start loving perfectly all people. and NEVER think of self.

Atwood · Jul 21, 2014

gotime said:

Good morning Gotime.

Your claim of peace is not proof of the interp of Rom 7. If you have peace from that, it is the peace of delusion.

The statement was not that it was "normal" for the Christian. I would call I was alive apart from the law normal.

"I was sailing along,
On moonlight bay . . ."

But then comes the monkey-wrench in the Christian life:

when the commandment came, sin revived [it had been dormant, which could only be so in a Christian], and I died. . . . I am carnal.

Paul prophesies and says: It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. Only the Christian has a better self, a New Man.

I don't say the carnal state is "normal," but I also recognize that carnality is very common, and that in many things we all stumble.

We might say that the Lord Jesus is the only normal man since Adam's fall, a normal man on earth in this life. The rest of us are abnormal. But the abnormies are much more common than the normal.

Rom 7 surely starts with believers; where does it stop dealing with believers? Answer = nowhere. Surely believers are referred to when it says "discharged from the law" then "alive apart from the law."

Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Let it not be so. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. And
I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;"

If you suffer from the delusion that somehow you cannot sin, that is a delusion. And it is a strange delusion for one who denies eternal security. On the one hand, some may believe in more salvation than a man can get in this life (like eradication of sin nature & perfection), yet not enough salvation in the long haul.

Thou shalt all His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Grandpa · Jul 21, 2014

I find it a little strange for someone to know that the Romans 7 man is trapped in his work at the law and simultaneously preach keeping a 7th day sabbath according to the law.

Not only that but then you know the answer to it is the Holy Spirit.

Actually, if you read Romans 7 carefully, I guess it shouldn't be so strange after all... lol

Atwood · Jul 21, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

good points.

How about saying that the war is between Paul's new man & old man, a losing war until God enters to help in Rom 8 ?

I did comparison once between the old man and the flesh and found that there is nothing to distinguish the two and that the two are evidently the same thing (as is the body of sin & the members on the earth of Colossians).

Atwood · Jul 21, 2014

fredjames said:

Where does Rom 7 refer to a Pharisee? How could he have been alive apart from the law as a Pharisee?

As a Pharisee there was no "coming of the Law," He was steeped in it.

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in CHRIST JESUS. ...................."

Click to expand...

Fred, what is your proof of that one?
Rom 7 says nothing about Pharisee. It speaks of a man who was alive apart from the law, then the commandment came, and sin which had been dormant came back to life. The commandment in the text is "thou shalt not lust." And lust he did. Now are you going to tell us that you never lust?

The implication from Rom 8:1 is that the Christian is not condemned to carnality. He can be "after the flesh," if not "in the flesh."

How is Romans 7 a refuge in order to be excused? Romans 7 is no excuse; but it is a recurring reality for Christians.

Those who imagine that they are lifted to some higher plain so that they never sin, live in delusion.

Atwood · Jul 21, 2014

Linda70 said:

I think I misunderstood your post.
As I read it I would have replied:

The Pharisees were unsaved and did not have a better-inner-man to contrast with an evil ego other-man. The text is not about those making claims. You haven't shown that at all. You have no proof of Pharisees in Rom 7. The text is about believers. The example is Paul. The Lord tells us that Paul was alive apart from the law when the trouble began. That statement fits no Pharisee. It fits the believer who died to the law, as Rom 7 just said.

Atwood · Jul 21, 2014

gotime said:

Do you now believe that, GoTime?

Romans 7 man not saved.

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eternally-gratefull

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