Romans 7 man not saved.

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Linda70

Guest
I think I misunderstood your post.
As I read it I would have replied:

The Pharisees were unsaved and did not have a better-inner-man to contrast with an evil ego other-man. The text is not about those making claims. You haven't shown that at all. You have no proof of Pharisees in Rom 7. The text is about believers. The example is Paul. The Lord tells us that Paul was alive apart from the law when the trouble began. That statement fits no Pharisee. It fits the believer who died to the law, as Rom 7 just said.
I wasn't saying that those in Romans 7 were Pharisees. I was responding to Gotime's statement about the "many in Israel who were not saved that delighted in the law of God in the inner man". Those "many" were the "legalistic" and "hypocritical" Pharisees.

I believe that Romans 7 was about believers...I never denied that....it is Gotime who denies that and I was responding to him.

Does that clarify your misunderstanding?
 
Nov 30, 2012
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Go, then you have to go to Romans 14. The gentiles that had accepted Christ were not compelled to keep the Sabbath. In fact, Paul gave them permission to divorce their unbelieving spouse.
No, Paul said that we need not stop a unbelieving spouse from divorce. They are the ones that initiate the divorce, not us.
 
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Linda70

Guest
Atwood...

The dialogue about Romans 7:22 begins here

Gotime's response to which I responded about the Pharisees is here

Follow the discussion here, here and here which is where you picked it up.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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I find this all very interesting because when we say that the law will be kept by those who are in Faith.

You all quote Galatians and how the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. which is right then you say you are under the law.

Yet you are all arguing that its OK to be the Romans 7 man and the Romans 7 man is under the law. Only the Romans 8 man if free in Christ through the Spirit.

you want to know what under the law looks like? read Romans 7.

you want to know what under Grace looks like? read Romans 8.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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Good morning Gotime.

Your claim of peace is not proof of the interp of Rom 7. If you have peace from that, it is the peace of delusion.

The statement was not that it was "normal" for the Christian. I would call I was alive apart from the law normal.

"I was sailing along,
On moonlight bay . . ."

But then comes the monkey-wrench in the Christian life:

when the commandment came, sin revived [it had been dormant, which could only be so in a Christian], and I died. . . . I am carnal.

Paul prophesies and says: It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. Only the Christian has a better self, a New Man.

I don't say the carnal state is "normal," but I also recognize that carnality is very common, and that in many things we all stumble.

We might say that the Lord Jesus is the only normal man since Adam's fall, a normal man on earth in this life. The rest of us are abnormal. But the abnormies are much more common than the normal.

Rom 7 surely starts with believers; where does it stop dealing with believers? Answer = nowhere. Surely believers are referred to when it says "discharged from the law" then "alive apart from the law."

Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.


What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Let it not be so. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. And
I was alive apart from the law
once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;"


If you suffer from the delusion that somehow you cannot sin, that is a delusion. And it is a strange delusion for one who denies eternal security. On the one hand, some may believe in more salvation than a man can get in this life (like eradication of sin nature & perfection), yet not enough salvation in the long haul.

Thou shalt all His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I have a question:

You acknowledge that Paul grew up with the law and knew it well.

So how then did Paul get saved as you say and not have the law then suddenly the law comes?

Did he not know the law before he got saved?
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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Do you now believe that, GoTime?
I believe the whole quote not just the highlighted bit.

Ye have is in direct relation to the subject of "fruit unto holiness" and the end of that is everlasting life.

However the Romans 7 man has fruit of sin unto death.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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I find it a little strange for someone to know that the Romans 7 man is trapped in his work at the law and simultaneously preach keeping a 7th day sabbath according to the law.

Not only that but then you know the answer to it is the Holy Spirit.

Actually, if you read Romans 7 carefully, I guess it shouldn't be so strange after all... lol
Its a matter of works VS Fruit.

Its simple really slaves to sin can't keep the law.

Free in Christ can and will.

The Holy Spirit empowers us and fills us with the love of God transforming our minds into the image of Jesus.

Slave to sin = sinning no matter how much you try.

Free in Christ = not sinning and growing in Grace daily.

You can't sin less without keeping the law more.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I find this all very interesting because when we say that the law will be kept by those who are in Faith.

You all quote Galatians and how the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. which is right then you say you are under the law.

Yet you are all arguing that its OK to be the Romans 7 man and the Romans 7 man is under the law. Only the Romans 8 man if free in Christ through the Spirit.

you want to know what under the law looks like? read Romans 7.

you want to know what under Grace looks like? read Romans 8.
no. the romans 7 man is not under law. The romans 7 man said it was the law which convicted him. Otherwise he would not know what sin was.

You assume paul no longer knew what sin was??
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have a question:

You acknowledge that Paul grew up with the law and knew it well.

So how then did Paul get saved as you say and not have the law then suddenly the law comes?

Did he not know the law before he got saved?

he did not understand, the law could not save him, it was the schoolmaster to lead him to Christ.

that is what changed.

he went from a legalist preaching law. To a born again believer teaching grace.

a 180 degree turn.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Its a matter of works VS Fruit.

Its simple really slaves to sin can't keep the law.

Free in Christ can and will.

The Holy Spirit empowers us and fills us with the love of God transforming our minds into the image of Jesus.

Slave to sin = sinning no matter how much you try.

Free in Christ = not sinning and growing in Grace daily.

You can't sin less without keeping the law more.
so your perfect? All in Christ are perfect? I did not know that, where does it say thst? (and if it is true, there are not many saved people out there, In fact, I have never met one.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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so your perfect? All in Christ are perfect? I did not know that, where does it say thst? (and if it is true, there are not many saved people out there, In fact, I have never met one.
Me neither, myself included. For that matter I have not met that many Christians either as very few mirror Jesus in thought and in action. Fortunately, Jesus understands the human condition because He lowered Himself in order to understand us and to save us from our sins by shedding His precious blood on the cross. Jesus Wept.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Me neither, myself included. For that matter I have not met that many Christians either as very few mirror Jesus in thought and in action. Fortunately, Jesus understands the human condition because He lowered Himself in order to understand us and to save us from our sins by shedding His precious blood on the cross. Jesus Wept.
all we have to do is look at his people. even his disciples, to realise how flawed they were. And some people expect us to be better than them?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Its a matter of works VS Fruit.

Its simple really slaves to sin can't keep the law.

Free in Christ can and will.

The Holy Spirit empowers us and fills us with the love of God transforming our minds into the image of Jesus.

Slave to sin = sinning no matter how much you try.

Free in Christ = not sinning and growing in Grace daily.

You can't sin less without keeping the law more.
So which is it?

Do Christians sin less by keeping the law more?
or

Does the Holy Spirit empower us and fill us with the love of God transforming our minds into the image of Jesus.

Because if you understood Romans 7 you would see that you can't have both.


Romans 7:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Its a matter of works VS Fruit.

Its simple really slaves to sin can't keep the law.
No one ever kept the law but the Lord Jesus. Whether you conceive of the Law as the Law of Moses, or the Teachings of Jesus, or the Christian ethics of the NT -- no one ever kept the law. You haven't kept it, and neither have I.

Free in Christ can and will. . . . Free in Christ = not sinning and growing in Grace daily.
Freedom in Christ means we do not have to sin, but we certainly can & do. IN many things we all stumble. Beware of self-righteous delusion. How does "free" imply growing?

The Holy Spirit empowers us and fills us with the love of God transforming our minds into the image of Jesus.
Kindly show me where the Bible teaches that the Spirit fills those who downrate Christ to chance-giver instead of Savior.
The filling of the Spirit is not a constant experience. When we are stumbling, we certainly are not filled. We may question it if our bird is not chirping (songs & hymns & spiritual songs).

Slave to sin = sinning no matter how much you try.
The key is not trying so much as trusting the Savior in situations. But this doesn't work if one has never trusted Christ as Savior, having reduced Him to "chance-giver."

You can't sin less without keeping the law more.
When the commandment came, sin revived & I died . . . carnal.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I've never met an unsaved person who said that they are slaves to the Law.
I have rarely met an unsaved person who felt any guilt about their pet sins, never mind the feeling of 'doing what I hate, and not doing what I know I should, and doing what I know I shouldn't".
These are the woes of a Believer, not an unbeliever.
Well, since the law is written on their conscience and they make these resolutions to be a better person (meriting) but fail miserably, that sounds like a Rom 7 fit also.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Well, since the law is written on their conscience and they make these resolutions to be a better person (meriting) but fail miserably, that sounds like a Rom 7 fit also.
Cross, it is because this letter written to the church in Rome was intended for Christians and not sinners.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Cross, it is because this letter written to the church in Rome was intended for Christians and not sinners.
I'm just saying that even the unbeliever has the law written on their heart as well. Perhaps he isn't convicted by it's seriousness and fools himself into thinking he 'can' or 'will not'. This is also a failure with the unregenerate man.
I am not denying it pertains to Christians as well, that is why at the beginning I stated 'both'...both i.e., whoever tries attaining righteousness by the law and not trusting the Spirit working in us.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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So which is it?

Do Christians sin less by keeping the law more?
or

Does the Holy Spirit empower us and fill us with the love of God transforming our minds into the image of Jesus.

Because if you understood Romans 7 you would see that you can't have both.


Romans 7:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
You can't sin less unless you are empowered by the Spirit.

But you can't go on sinning the same if you are empowered by the spirit.

Why is this so hard to understand?

When by Faith we accept Jesus and the Gift of the Spirit we are transformed into His image.

Does Jesus kill, steal take the name of God in vain? no

So If we are becoming like Him then we also will not do these things. which means we sin less. and if we sin less then we are by default keeping the law more.

You can't stop stealing and steal at the same time.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
You can't sin less unless you are empowered by the Spirit.

But you can't go on sinning the same if you are empowered by the spirit.

Why is this so hard to understand?

When by Faith we accept Jesus and the Gift of the Spirit we are transformed into His image.

Does Jesus kill, steal take the name of God in vain? no

So If we are becoming like Him then we also will not do these things. which means we sin less. and if we sin less then we are by default keeping the law more.

You can't stop stealing and steal at the same time.

Do what and say what. You cannot sin unless powered by the Spirit? The Spirit tries to stop you from sin and leads to the divine nature. Not to sin. I meant that's a double cheeseburger and a large fry with a diet coke it makes no sense.
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
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You can't sin less unless you are empowered by the Spirit.

But you can't go on sinning the same if you are empowered by the spirit.

Why is this so hard to understand?

When by Faith we accept Jesus and the Gift of the Spirit we are transformed into His image.

Does Jesus kill, steal take the name of God in vain? no

So If we are becoming like Him then we also will not do these things. which means we sin less. and if we sin less then we are by default keeping the law more.

You can't stop stealing and steal at the same time.
I think all of us agree that a person who knows Christ and has the Holy Spirit working in them
will sin less.

This is the very work of the Holy Spirit,
and done out of love,
not out of condition.

If we do works for the reason of remaining saved,
then they are worth nothing.

We do not love simply because we are commanded to love (because it is impossible to love on command)
but we love others because He first loved us.


The issue at hand is not the result, but the path to the result.
Both sides agree that Christ changes lives, and breaks the bonds of sin in our lives.
One side admits that sanctification is a process, and the other says it is instant.