Romans 8 anyone?

[Stunnedbygrace]

While I am NOT KJVO, I do use and prefer the KJV.

The ESV, RSV, ASV, and Holman study Bible all use flesh; while the NIV very appropriately uses 'Sinful nature'

KJV also uses body for verse 10 though...

 

[DevotiontoBible]

My PHYSICAL body WILL die, because of sin.
My physical body is not the full understanding of "the flesh."

There is a reason Paul didn't use the word "body" in the other verses...because in those verses he is not talking about the physical body by using the word "flesh but a nature.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Lol!

"Even though your body will die because of sin..."
I have one body. What body do YOU suppose him to have been speaking of...?

There is a reason Paul didn't use the word "body" in the other verses...because in those verses he is not talking about the physical body by using the word "flesh but a nature.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There is a reason Paul didn't use the word "body" in the other verses...because in those verses he is not talking about the physical body by using the word "flesh but a nature.

Yes, I can follow Paul, but in verse 10 I really do think he is talking of a body.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

While it is certainly true that the usual meaning of σάρξ flesh is that which is between the bones and the skin; verse 4 can not be understood in that sense. I believe that flesh, in Romans 8, is about attitude. The attitude of seeking and submission to God's will [as revealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit] is walking after the Spirit. The attitude of following your own inclinations is walking after the flesh.

Okay so yes, now I see I have not been clear. And I use flesh or body somehow expecting others to understand it how my own mind is understanding it. When I say flesh, from now on, I intend it as Paul does in the first verses of chapter 8, as a sinful nature. When I say body, from now on, I mean my literal body, as Paul does in verse 10.

A bit unreasonable to expect others to understand me when I use the words interchangeably! What, you're mind readers??

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And so, my intention was to talk about verse 10, where he literally IS speaking of a body (to my understanding.)

The end result is that BOTH the flesh AND the body must die. But vs 10 is speaking of the body.

 

[oldhermit]

This is an AWESOME post!

Thanks for sharing.

However it may be too long for the average forum user...would you be offended if I summarized your points?

Not at all. Please feel free.

 

[oldhermit]

Old hermit I missed number 4 ������
Could you point it out or is it suppose to be 3a is 3 and 3b is 4?

D. Is the fourth principle under which there are three sub points. The last sub point is #3 which is sub divided into a, and b.

 

[Ariel82]

mmm going to have to reread it...

 

[Ariel82]

A. The First principle of Christian ontology says that this new existence is a state of reprieve. “Therefore there is now no condemnation.” v. 1.
This existence is ours only by the grace of God. Divine favor has been bestowed on us in spite of our past. God's view of us, his attitude toward us, his judgment against has now been fixed in our favor. This is the declaration of the Lord. This is his part. In his mind, condemnation has been removed. There is a total dismissal of all charges against us. In the mind of God, what we once were, we are no longer. What were we before? Enemies of God, lost, alienated from Christ, disobedient, children of wrath, without hope, and without God in the world, Ephesians 2.

For the Jew under the Law, the decree of no condemnation could never have been given. Under the Law, there was a constant remembrance of sin made year after year. In Christ, there is no remembrance of sin, and judgment has been rendered in our favor. Punishment has been deferred and Christ was the scapegoat for our punishment.

so in summary (correct me if I get it wrong Old hermit)
1. In Christ we are not condemned.

 

[oldhermit]

so in summary (correct me if I get it wrong Old hermit)
1. In Christ we are not condemned.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Ariel82]

B. The Second principle of Christian ontology says that life in Christ is freedom from the law of sin and death, 2-4.
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

The weakness of the Law was the human flesh. The weakness of the Law was not the Law itself. There was no deficiency in the Law. The weakness was the inability of man to keep the law of God perfectly. It was the inability of man to resist sin perfectly. This is Paul's irreducible dilemma of chapter seven.

1. The Law was not able to free the Jew from condemnation.
The sacrificial system, with all its complexities, all its regulations, all its strict requirements of observation could not free the worshiper from a single sin. All of the combined blood shed upon the altar over a course of some 1500 years from Aaron to Caiaphas could do nothing to alter the spiritual status of those under the Law. This new Christian ontology was unattainable under that system. This was not a failure of the Law, it was simply not the function of the Law.
2. The strength of the Spirit of life was the offering of Christ. This furnished everything that was lacking in man's failure to keep the Law of God. What we could not do, Christ did for us. What did he do? He kept the Law of God perfectly in the flesh, and… he resisted sin perfectly in the flesh. Therefore, the Law stands as having been fulfilled. The Law can no longer bear witness against the offender.
3. Sin was condemned in HIS flesh so that the requirements of the Law could be fulfilled in us but, this deferment of condemnation is conditional upon two points.

* It can only be supplied to those who share in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. For those who do not share in this event, through baptism as Paul explains in chapter six, condemnation remains.
* Fulfillment of the Law in us is also conditional upon individual conduct – It is only for those, “who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” This is our part.
Grace does not cancel out obligation, quite the contrary. It makes us all the more obligated to the will of God. The word 'walk' implies life style. This is a lifestyle of behavior that conforms to the Spirit rather than to the flesh.

there is a lot to unpack in this point.

Mainly that we are free from the law of sin and death.

1. the weakness of the law is not the law itself but our ability to keep it. thus the weakness of the law to save ANYONE, especially Jews.
2. the strength of the Spirit was Jesus death on the cross.
3. Jesus took the punishment for our sin upon the cross (some folks might argue that one)

that we are not free from obligation because of what Jesus did but we should fulfill the law by walking after the Spirit of God.

did i cover all the points?

wait you also say that unless we die with Christ we won't live with him and the law of sin and death still applies (my paraphrasing of what you said)

 

[Ariel82]

C. The Third principle of Christian ontology says that a redirected, refocused mind is critical to this new existence, 5-8.
"For those who are (ὄντες– for those who exist) according to the flesh set theirminds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are (exist) in the flesh cannot please God.”

1. The old mind was set on things of the flesh. This represents a dedication, a fixation, a fanatical obsession with temporal, carnal pursuits. This is a life devoted to self, concerned only with serving the needs of the body. It is a devotion to satisfy personal goals, desires, or ambitious interests such as carrier, education, comfort, pleasures, even sinful obsessions. That existence, thatὄντες
, that state of being, was concerned only with, “What I want out of life, what will make me happy, what will make me successful, what will give me a sense of living a fulfilled life.”

The simple fact is that if you want those things, you can have them. They are out there for the taking. But in the taking, be careful that you do not lose yourself. Very often, that is the price of such pursuits.

The fleshly mind is a mind that is hostile toward God. For such a mind, not only is there no subordination to the law of God, there is a complete inability for such person to submit to the law of God. It is impossible for the fleshly mind to think in terms of spiritual goals or concerns. For that to happen, the mind must first be confronted by the word of God and a conscious decision must then be made to allow the word of God to influence and entrain (reshape) the mind. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.
2. The new mind must be set on things of the Spirit.
This requires a refocusing of the mind. This demands a dedication of service, a fixation, a fanatical obsession with things that are of eternal value. This is a God-centered obsession that rededicates everything in our lives to the will of God. This changes how we view our personal goals, desires, and interests. This changes how we see our carriers, our educational pursuits, our concern for pleasures, our comfortable existence, and especially our sinful obsessions.

My sole concern in life can no longer be fixated on how to please myself. How I manage my life must now take on a whole new focus. How can I manage my family, my money, my assets, my skills, my time, so that I can please God in all of these things. All other concerns are now rendered unimportant.

3rd principles is focused on the renewing of the mind and how we should change our focus and desires from the things and lusts of this world to the things of God and His will for our lives.

 

[oldhermit]

there is a lot to unpack in this point.

Mainly that we are free from the law of sin and death.

1. the weakness of the law is not the law itself but our ability to keep it. thus the weakness of the law to save ANYONE, especially Jews.
2. the strength of the Spirit was Jesus death on the cross.
3. Jesus took the punishment for our sin upon the cross (some folks might argue that one)

that we are not free from obligation because of what Jesus did but we should fulfill the law by walking after the Spirit of God.

did i cover all the points?

wait you also say that unless we die with Christ we won't live with him and the law of sin and death still applies (my paraphrasing of what you said)

The law of sin and death has been with us since the beginning of creation. This has never been repealed.

 

[Ariel82]

Fourth principle of Christian ontology says that new life can only exist on the spiritual plane, 9-11.
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”

1. The presence of the Spirit of God in the Christian is actual, real, personal, and intimate. The Spirit of God in the Christian is the single verifying agent of our relationship with God. It is the only thing that gives conformation to that ontology.

No matter what claims one may make about being a Christian, if he does not have the Spirit of God, he simply does not belong to God. He has no life in Christ. The world is full of the walking dead who claim to be Christian but have no association with Christ whatsoever. All they have is an emotional attachment to who they think Jesus is and what they think Christianity is.

Emotions or feelings, no matter how strong, are not a metric for defining Christian ontology. True Christian ontology is not determined by emotions, nor is it defined by the world. It is determined by the presence of these six principles.
2. A good moral lifestyle is not proof of a Christian existence.
Although moral behavior is indispensable to a Christian ontology, it is not in itself proof of it. Even an atheist can live a good moral life but, this does not make him a Christian. By the same token, one who is a Christian who lives a worldly life style with no regard for the guidance of the Spirit cannot lay claim to these six principles of Christian existence. Scripture says there are severe consequences for such a person. In fact, the Hebrew writer tells us that he is worse off than the moral atheist. He would have been better off never having known the way of righteousness.
3. The Spirit “gives life to your mortal bodies.”
There are two issues here.

a. There is the promise of the resurrection of our bodies. The eventual resurrection of our bodies is just as certain, just as sure as the reality of resurrection of the Lord himself.
b. This is also an issue of usefulness where the Lord himself lays claim to our earthly bodies. The Spirit of God in us is the only factor that turns our weak, frail, useless, decaying, sinful, mortal bodies into a productive agent for God in this world.

In the final analysis, all other human accomplishments mean nothing. No matter how creative, how great, how noble, how impressive, how beautiful, how magnificent, no matter how they may stir the hearts of men, all human accomplishments will all someday be consumed by fire. The only relevant contribution that a man can make in this life are those things he has accomplished for the Lord. Nothing else will matter.

i am not sure i agree that "new life only exist on the spiritual plane" or exactly what you mean by that statement.

i do agree that the Holy Spirit is the only person who can tell someone if they are saved and many people fool themselves and give false assurance to others of their salvation. however if someone doesn't have a real relationship with God, prays and knows that God hears their prayers, or have the Holy Spirit tell them that THEY are HIS children....then there is something wrong.

I would not go so far as to say they are unsaved but there is something blocking the communication lines that needs to be address. Most often its a false view of WHO God is or false beliefs and doctrines about the Bible and WHAT God promises. therefore I would say if someone does not have a real and personal relationship with God and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, they are either not saved at all (believing a false gospel of works, or licentiousness) OR they are immature in their faith and need to sink roots and get deeply grounded in Christ and the Bible and sound doctrine so they are not to and fro by the winds of false teachers and false doctrines.

sorry that wasn't a summary, just adding a few thoughts.

as for the spiritual plane statement, what exactly do you mean?

i think i have issues with the word "only"

 

[Ariel82]

The law of sin and death has been with us since the beginning of creation. This has never been repealed.

I agree that the Law of sin and death was given in the Garden of Eden when God told them NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, I would say it is being repealed and replaced by the Law of the Spirit, ratified by the Blood of the Lamb splashed upon the heavenly altar.

 

[Ariel82]

[FONT=&quot]E. The [/FONT]Fifth principle of Christian ontology says that a change of personal life is obligatory. A change of life is non-negotiable for if you want to be a Christian, 12-13.

“So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh, for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

This is a demand for a change of allegiance. We are no longer obligated to the flesh. That obligation is over. We have already been down that path and the only place that path led to was death. “If you are living according to the flesh, you must die.” This edict from the Lord is absolute. Allegiance to the flesh is death. This sentence cannot and will not be overturned by any human resistance or appeal. God cannot be bargained with on this. If you live according to the flesh, there is only one outcome.

Living by the Spirit means we are personally and actively engaged in “putting to death the deeds of the body.” This is not the Lord's part, this is our part. The Lord promised to remove our sins but he did not promise to change our behavior for us. This responsibility falls to us. The Spirit will render whatever help we may require in this effort, in fact as Paul says, we cannot do this without him; but the obligation is ours none-the-less.

This is not an easy thing to do. It is tough to leave behind people, perhaps even family members, places, activities, influences, and behaviors that have become old habits for us. There has to be that separation between the old life and our new life and that separation is measured by a change in our behavior. If we are willing to do this, the Lord promises us, “you will live.” And this is the Lord's part. He is the one who gives life to our useless bodies.

5.
If we are truly born again then we are required to have a changed life (turning from fleshly desires to doing GOD's will for our life) and that God gives life to our bodies...

I wouldn't say useless because God created us and gives us a purpose; plus He doesn't create useless things.

 

[oldhermit]

5.
If we are truly born again then we are required to have a changed life (turning from fleshly desires to doing GOD's will for our life) and that God gives life to our bodies...

I wouldn't say useless because God created us and gives us a purpose; plus He doesn't create useless things.[/B][/B][/B][/B][/B][/B][/I][/B][/B][/B][/I][/I][/I][/B][/B]

Unless we are in Christ, our bodies are useless to all eternal purposes.

 

[Ariel82]

F. The Sixthprinciple of Christian ontology says that the privilege of sonship belongs only to those who are led by the Spirit of God, 14-17.

“
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.”
What are the privileges of sonship?

1. Name change – “sons of God.” This is a name that scripture seems to reserve exclusively for the people of God.

a. We have been liberated from slavery to adoption.
b. We have the very great privilege of addressing the God of creation as “Father.”
A lot of people, including some scholars, such as the late famed Joachim Jeremias, attempt to make a huge issue of the Aramaic word Αββα here. Jeremias even went so far as to suggest that Αββα is some sort of diminutive alternative for “Father,” which would make it equivalent to the term 'daddy,' 'papa,' or some other diminutive expression. This idea is however largely rejected by most scholars, and rightly so.

In order to clear up any misconceptions about what Αββα means and how it should be understood, let us look at the grammar of the address. This word is only used three times in the New Testament and always in the same context.

* Jesus’ prayer in the garden in Mark 14:36, καὶ ἔλεγεν Αββα ὁ πατήρ πάντα δυνατά σοι παρένεγκε τὸ ποτήριον ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ τοῦτο ἀλλ᾽ οὐ τί ἐγὼ θέλω ἀλλὰ τί σύ.
* Galatians 4:6, Ὅτι δέ ἐστε υἱοί ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ εἰς τὰς καρδίας ὑμῶν, κρᾶζον Αββα ὁ πατήρ.
* Romans 8:15, Οὐ γὰρ ἐλάβετε πνεῦμα δουλείας πάλιν εἰς φόβον ἀλλ᾽ ἐλάβετε πνεῦμα υἱοθεσίας ἐν ᾧ κράζομεν Αββα ὁ πατήρ.

The construction of Αββα ὁ πατήρ is the same in each text. Although ὁ πατήρ is nominative in its spelling it is used as a vocative of address. This is not at all uncommon in Greek grammar. There are many examples of this in the New Testament. One such example would be Hebrews 1:8-9 where the Father address the Son as ὁ Θεός. Θεός is nominative spelling but it is used as a vocative of address.

In each of the thee places where Αββα is used, the meaning of the word is clearly set forth by the user. Both Jesus and Paul ascribe the word 'Father' as the definition and equivalent of Αββα. Αββα is not offered as a proper name for the Father as some have suggested because of the use of the definite article with Θεός. It is simply an address – Father. This is certainly not a diminutive form of address. There are Greek diminutive forms of father (παππας, τατα, τέττα, and perhaps even πατρίδιον), but none of these are used in connection with Αββα in any of these three passages.

There is really nothing spectacular about the word itself. Both Jesus and Paul provide the meaning of the word as 'Father'. The point Paul is making both here and in Galatians 4 is that being able to address God as ‘Father' is a profound privilege. This is a big deal. This is what separates the son from the mere servant. As adopted sons, we are privileged now to address God as “Father,” not merely collectively as was the Jewish custom, but individually which was inconceivable to Jewish thinking. This is why the Jews attempted to stone Jesus for blasphemy in John 5:18 when he called God his Father. “For this reason, therefore, the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” Paul says our freedom to address God as “Father” is a privilege we now enjoy that we did not previously have.
2. We have the privilege of family status because we are now “children of God.”This grants to us all the rights and privileges that come with family membership, including the right of heirship.
3. We have the privilege of heirship – “heirs of God and fellow-heirs with Christ.”

This actually reflects first-born privilege. We have a first-born share of the inheritance. We share in everything Jesus inherited from the Father. This inheritance is of course something that will not be fully realized in this life.

a. 1Peter 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great, mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead; to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.” We are privileged to partake of his glory “...if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.”
b. In Revelation 21:7 Jesus says, “He who overcomes will inherit these things, (all of the blessings previously mentioned in chapters 20 and 21) and I will be his God and he will be My son.” This is full realization of the promise that God made to Abraham way back in Genesis 15.

4. In the end, we will one day be privileged to sit on the very throne of God.
Revelation 3:21, “He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” This verse represents the magnitude of our inheritance. When one is given the throne itself, this means that he is in possession of all that is governed by that position. If you have the throne, what will not have?
5. We also share in the privilege of suffering – “if indeed we suffer with Him.”
This certainly requires a different way of viewing the experience of suffering. For the Christian, suffering is no longer something that must simply be endured. Now, there is meaning in suffering. The world sees no meaning in such experiences and they certainly do not regard them as privilege.

For the Christian, suffering is a privileged way of identifying with the Lord. As Paul expressed it in Colossians 1:24, “I want to fill up in my flesh that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.” In other words, “I want more of it.” Paul was not a masochist. He did not enjoy suffering, but his attitude about suffering was that, “If that identifies me more closely with my Lord, then bring it on.”

There is reward at the end of our suffering that the world cannot take from us, not even in death. This is why Paul can say in verse 18, “Our present sufferings are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

6th: we are adopted into God's family (if we are truly lead by His Holy Spirit), which means.

1. we get a name change from slaves to sons
2. we are part of the FAMILY of God
3. heirship
4. throne of God
5. Privilege of suffering

its all pretty intense thoughts.

i really shouldn't multitask. I have enough trouble keeping it all straight when I am giving something my undivided attention.

 

[notuptome]

Unless we are in Christ, our bodies are useless to all eternal purposes.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Our bodies await redemption where this flesh will be made like unto His body incorruptible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger