Romans 8 anyone?
- Thread starter FlSnookman7
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A
i used to get upset that everyone didn't make a practice of reading the Bible yearly from Genesis to Revelation.
then God showed me how HE could tell people what they needed to know through the Holy Spirit, WHEN they needed to know it.
the Bible is useful to discern truth from error, but the Holy Spirit has to open people's eyes or the words and message will be veiled like it still is to the Jews who have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah.
so Yes Chapter 7 would be useful to discuss, but God can still work in the hearts of men by just ONE Bible verse spoken and written upon our hearts...line by line, precept by precept...the Holy Spirit leads us into sanctification of our hearts and minds unto His glory.
then God showed me how HE could tell people what they needed to know through the Holy Spirit, WHEN they needed to know it.
the Bible is useful to discern truth from error, but the Holy Spirit has to open people's eyes or the words and message will be veiled like it still is to the Jews who have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah.
so Yes Chapter 7 would be useful to discuss, but God can still work in the hearts of men by just ONE Bible verse spoken and written upon our hearts...line by line, precept by precept...the Holy Spirit leads us into sanctification of our hearts and minds unto His glory.
When I started this thread I also considered the problem of taking Romans 8 out of context. I posted the whole chapter to get a sense of that context but all of Romans fits together perfectly. I do believe that Romans 6,7 and 8 tell us who we were, who we are and who we will be forevermore.
I am reminded of a story I heard of missionaries in Africa who had to flee a war. They only left behind half of the book of Luke and when they returned many hundreds had accepted Jesus as Lord. In my case I had read Romans just before asking Jesus to be my Lord and Savior so it will always have a special meaning to me.
I am reminded of a story I heard of missionaries in Africa who had to flee a war. They only left behind half of the book of Luke and when they returned many hundreds had accepted Jesus as Lord. In my case I had read Romans just before asking Jesus to be my Lord and Savior so it will always have a special meaning to me.
I understand what you're saying here and I agree (and if my husband were here, he would agree also). He and I talked about this comparison.
If a building is condemned because it has been found to be structurally unsound, it does not make sense to live in or renovate the building.
In Scripture, God refers to the "old man" and the "new man".
To me, it is the "old man" that has been condemned and is unfit for us to continue to dwell there.
The "new man" is that new creation in Christ that God has created within the born again believer. This is where we are created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). This is where we walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4) and serve in newness of the Spirit (Rom 7:6).
The "old man" can never be refurbished to the state of "righteousness and true holiness", can never "walk in newness of life", or "serve in newness of the Spirit".
If a building is condemned because it has been found to be structurally unsound, it does not make sense to live in or renovate the building.
In Scripture, God refers to the "old man" and the "new man".
To me, it is the "old man" that has been condemned and is unfit for us to continue to dwell there.
The "new man" is that new creation in Christ that God has created within the born again believer. This is where we are created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). This is where we walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4) and serve in newness of the Spirit (Rom 7:6).
The "old man" can never be refurbished to the state of "righteousness and true holiness", can never "walk in newness of life", or "serve in newness of the Spirit".
In your post #52 you stated
I don't know that our bodies are renovated. Scripture is clear that we will receive new bodies ... not these old bodies renovated. However, during this lifetime these bodies house the "new man".
I believe we receive the "new man" at the time we are born again. It is in this "new man" that the HOLY SPIRIT works to bring us to the point where we can flee all those things which cause us to turn from our Heavenly Father.
However, the "new man" is housed in this body of flesh (just as the "old man" was before we were born again). We have a new way of overcoming the lusts of our flesh and we no longer have to be ruled by the flesh. As we continue to overcome those lusts through reckoning the "old man" dead, those lusts which are in our bodies become less and less noticeable. This is accomplished as the "new man" grows strong and we mature in the Lord. Yes, the HOLY SPIRIT works within us, cleanses us, warns us, guides us. And as we learn to listen to HIM, we grow.
I don't know that our bodies are renovated. Scripture is clear that we will receive new bodies ... not these old bodies renovated. However, during this lifetime these bodies house the "new man".
I believe we receive the "new man" at the time we are born again. It is in this "new man" that the HOLY SPIRIT works to bring us to the point where we can flee all those things which cause us to turn from our Heavenly Father.
However, the "new man" is housed in this body of flesh (just as the "old man" was before we were born again). We have a new way of overcoming the lusts of our flesh and we no longer have to be ruled by the flesh. As we continue to overcome those lusts through reckoning the "old man" dead, those lusts which are in our bodies become less and less noticeable. This is accomplished as the "new man" grows strong and we mature in the Lord. Yes, the HOLY SPIRIT works within us, cleanses us, warns us, guides us. And as we learn to listen to HIM, we grow.
A
i was working with Stunned's metaphor and eventually the house gets torn down (death of our physical bodies which is called tents in the Bible and not houses) and we get palaces. However in this life our bodies do get a makeover, they become holy temples and even if no one else think we look beautiful, God thinks we are glorious because we are His.
A
Ah, you bringing her post up reminded me of something I didn't understand in it either. The part where you said we must die spiritually, Ariel. I assumed it was probably a mistake but meant to ask you about it. 
we before we are born again must die spiritually, putting to death the fleshly mind and spirit within us that seeks the lusts of this world before we are made alive again. ....
actually we don't put it to death, its kind of already dead, we just have to recognize its dead state and nail it to the cross and allow it to stay there instead of claiming it as part of who we are now as children of God. Using the sword of the Spirit to cut apart our very souls between what God created and what we learnt from this fallen world.
A
I guess it depends on your view of Spirit and Soul. its hard because they are defined differently and translated differently in the Old and New testaments. Pneuma and Ruesch (i think i spelled it right).
the essence that God breathed into man to make us living beings is different than the born again spirit within us. (better clarify) the main difference is that the first has the sinful nature that seeks its own pleasure and the second is reconnected with God and seeks His will and the sees the bigger picture of how Love benefits all.
the heart of stone being replaced with a real heart....or circumcision of the heart.
the essence that God breathed into man to make us living beings is different than the born again spirit within us. (better clarify) the main difference is that the first has the sinful nature that seeks its own pleasure and the second is reconnected with God and seeks His will and the sees the bigger picture of how Love benefits all.
the heart of stone being replaced with a real heart....or circumcision of the heart.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah. And here in 2 corinthians 5, it's referred to as "house" and "tabernacle":
2 Corinthians 5:
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
One of these days, we're going to shed the earthly house of this tabernacle and we'll be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
One of these days, we're going to shed the earthly house of this tabernacle and we'll be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.
First of all FlSnookman7, I want to congratulate you on quoting from the KJB as opposed to modern versions. There are many Christians here who bristle at any criticism of the modern versions, but verse 1 is an excellent example of how Scripture has been corrupted in the critical texts, and thus THE WHOLE MEANING OF THIS VERSE HAS BEEN ALTERED.
RECEIVED TEXT (Stephanus)
Οὐδὲν ἄρα νῦν κατάκριμα τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ· μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν, ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα
KING JAMES BIBLE
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
CRITICAL TEXT (Nestle)
Οὐδὲν ἄρα νῦν κατάκριμα τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.
MODERN VERSION (NASV) AND ALL MODERN VERSIONS
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Now the question before us is this: Is the deletion of seven Greek words (ten English words) a serious omission and does it impact on the doctrine presented? And the answer is that it is a very serious omission with great theological significance.
What the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul is that there is no DAMNATORY SENTENCE OR PENALTY (Gk katakrima = condemnation) to those who are in Christ Jesus, because they have been justified by grace through faith. But that is not where the verse stops. The ones who have been genuinely saved must also be "walking in the Spirit", and not living in the lusts of the flesh. In other words, the ones who are truly saved will also clearly understand and apply the teaching found in Titus 2:11,12: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world...
In another thread the question was asked whether grace is a license to sin. If a person had only the modern corruption of Romans 8:1, he would conclude that yes, grace is a license to sin, since there is no requirement to walk in the Spirit and deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. This is just one example of how modern versions pervert Bible doctrine (since there is absolutely no justification for deleting that important clause.
RECEIVED TEXT (Stephanus)
Οὐδὲν ἄρα νῦν κατάκριμα τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ· μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν, ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα
KING JAMES BIBLE
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
CRITICAL TEXT (Nestle)
Οὐδὲν ἄρα νῦν κατάκριμα τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.
MODERN VERSION (NASV) AND ALL MODERN VERSIONS
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Now the question before us is this: Is the deletion of seven Greek words (ten English words) a serious omission and does it impact on the doctrine presented? And the answer is that it is a very serious omission with great theological significance.
What the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul is that there is no DAMNATORY SENTENCE OR PENALTY (Gk katakrima = condemnation) to those who are in Christ Jesus, because they have been justified by grace through faith. But that is not where the verse stops. The ones who have been genuinely saved must also be "walking in the Spirit", and not living in the lusts of the flesh. In other words, the ones who are truly saved will also clearly understand and apply the teaching found in Titus 2:11,12: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world...
In another thread the question was asked whether grace is a license to sin. If a person had only the modern corruption of Romans 8:1, he would conclude that yes, grace is a license to sin, since there is no requirement to walk in the Spirit and deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. This is just one example of how modern versions pervert Bible doctrine (since there is absolutely no justification for deleting that important clause.
Last edited:
You make it sound as if walking in the Spirit [Sanctification] depended on a deliberate act on our part.
That would make our relationship with God dependent on works. Because of the Work of the Holy Spirit in us we will live holy and morally responsible lives; but it is not of ourselves: Phil 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV