Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

tek · Dec 12, 2012

First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.

Second, before the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go.

“Pharaoh's heart became hard” (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19).
“But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15).
“But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32).

Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart. God was giving Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the judgment that was to come. Pharaoh chose to bring judgment on himself and on his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands.

As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Pharaoh and Egypt had horribly sinned against God, it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt. Therefore, God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart was not unjust, and His bringing additional plagues against Egypt was not unjust. The plagues, as terrible as they were, actually demonstrate God’s mercy in not completely destroying Egypt, which would have been a perfectly just penalty.

tek · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

The way it works is in Jeremiah 18:5-10. Here it is in red, let's go through it
Jeremiah 18:5-10:Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Notice Israel is in potter’s hand. What shall they be predestined to?

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

....In other words what shall the potter do? Shall He predestine it to wrath? Shall He predestine it to mercy? No way! It’ll all depend on what the nation Israel chooses to do!

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

If the nation Israel chooses to do good then God will be god to it also

And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
....so God is a potter and He forms you to be a vessel. You make a choice what vessel it will be.

tek · Dec 12, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

what does this have to do with free will? I think your mixing Gods soverign choice of placing someone somewhere, with Our choice to be able to understand our need, and seek help.

you know an odd statistic? Most babies who grow up wiht believing parents reject God. They want nothing to do with him. Most Christians I knw did not have believing parents. So it does not matter who your parents are. What matters is how you respond to Gods conviction. and his truth

who said anything about telling God anything? why are you trying to twist what people believe and trying to make them look bad? no one states they tell god anything. WE ASK HIM TO SAVE US, based on HIS WORD AND HIS PROMISE.

True. But does not God know who will respond and who will not? and does he not go after them he knows will respond? Your taking away from Gods omniscient glory, by saying he chooses based on some erroneous value, just because. God knows everything, including who will respond, and who will not.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

jesus chose them, and they all did not even get saved

why would he pray for the world. he knows many of the world will by their free will reject him. he is praying for those he is going to send out into the world. including us. you can;t use this to try to say jesus did not die for the world. this is not reality.

so your saying God is incapable of knowing who will recieve his word and who is not? and through this omniscient knowledge, goes after the ones he KNOWS will come?

you not making sense. and ignoring the omniscience of God.

Some will hate and some will not. yes, why? because they have free will to chose. By your own admission. But this is not even what the gospel says. The gospel says some will admit they need help and call out to God, and some will not. It has nothing to do with hating sin, if we hated it, we would not do it. and we can't stop doing it until we are born again and understand why sin is so bad.

Yes it is from him. why? he gave us the ability to come to him and be saved, because he did the work. if he did not do the work of redemption, and send his spirit to convince us we need him, we would have nothing to ask for, to come to, or to seek out. more importanlty, we would have nothing to have faith in. But it is still gods work. thats why he gets the credit. But he is not going to force it on you. He wants YOU TO CHOSE.

ps. The natural man can not have a love for righteousness. It is in his flesh, and he hates it. He must admit he is unrighteous, and be saved before he can change. you have a man getting himself good. then comming to God. this is impossible. and not of God. man is powerless to do this. They have to be born of the spirit and made new before they can love righteousness.

I have this hope to. And this hope will never fade away, because I placed my free choice trust in the work of Christ, and KNOW he will keep his promise.

The post got shredded into pieces

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

tek said:

First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.

Second, before the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go.

“Pharaoh's heart became hard” (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19).
“But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15).
“But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32).

Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart. God was giving Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the judgment that was to come. Pharaoh chose to bring judgment on himself and on his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands.

As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Pharaoh and Egypt had horribly sinned against God, it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt. Therefore, God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart was not unjust, and His bringing additional plagues against Egypt was not unjust. The plagues, as terrible as they were, actually demonstrate God’s mercy in not completely destroying Egypt, which would have been a perfectly just penalty.

Regardless of how pharaoh acted, GOD RAISED HIM UP WITH THE PURPOSE OF MAKING HIS POWER KNOWN.

For some reason that's always left out. And it was GOD who hardened pharaoh's heart. He spoke to Moses about performing the act before Moses even approached pharaoh.

We see the same example in David numbering Israel. One verse says God moved him, while another says satan rose to move David.

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

tek said:

The way it works is in Jeremiah 18:5-10. Here it is in red, let's go through it
Jeremiah 18:5-10:Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Notice Israel is in potter’s hand. What shall they be predestined to?

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

....In other words what shall the potter do? Shall He predestine it to wrath? Shall He predestine it to mercy? No way! It’ll all depend on what the nation Israel chooses to do!

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

If the nation Israel chooses to do good then God will be god to it also

And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
....so God is a potter and He forms you to be a vessel. You make a choice what vessel it will be.

And what happened? Did a man find understanding or did every one go their own way?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

So God raising him up does not mean God did this because God knew how he would respond? are you serious? why do people want to take away from the omniscience of God? No where in the passage does it say God raised pharaoh up to send him to hell. it says God put him in power. and in doing so, would show how powerful God is.

and nice how you reject the fact that phaoroah hardened his heart many times before it says God did it. And also. did you read the meaning of the word harden? which means to strengthen your own will or your belief? Does not God harden our hearts by continually putting truth in our faces, and the more we reject truth for the lie (harden our own heart0 the more we believe our own lie?

God speaking to moses before does not mean God forced pharaoh to do anything, Pharoah did it of his own free will.

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

So God DIDN'T know pharaoh BEFORE the womb? I guess the only to people He did know was Jeremiah and Jesus then.

So God said that He WILL harden pharaoh's heart, and then HOPED His plan would work?

And I don't reject it, I understand it. God hardened his heart by the same spirit He uses to blind anyone.

And yes He does. You're doing it right now for the sake of your own lie. How can you say that pharaoh was created and predestined for hell, BUT he CHOSE his fate????? This makes no sense and only leads to more confusion.

tek · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

from that passage in Jeremiah can you see that God is a potter and He forms you to be a vessel but you are the one who makes a choice what kind of vessel it will be.

That's what happened to Pharaoh. He made a choice to harden his heart and so God hardened it further just like in this verse

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

tek · Dec 12, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

thaat's a really good point

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

tek said:

I'm not arguing the operation or how this is accomplished. What I'm saying is that God purposed pharaoh to act accordingly. But just as in the story of Job, God removed the hedge of His protection in order for this to take place.

Revelation 17:16-17

16*And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17*For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

do what? lol,, sorry, but I had to laugh.. if you read what i said, you would have realised you just agreed with me.. yes God knew him, knew everything about him. thats why he set him up in power. because he knew how he would react.

nope. he knew it, because again he knew how pharaoh would react. You think your free will fools God?

yep he does. puts the word in front of them, so seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear. because as I said, the more you reject truth, the more you believe the lie. God just strengthens your resolve when he puts truth in front of you knowing you will not believe.

and yes you do reject it. because your stating God forced a man, when God did no such thing. he put a man who would chose to do what he knew he needed done in power.

the only confusion is people who reject the omniscience of God. there is no confusion. God predestines based on foreknowledge. not on being a dictator and forcing people to do what he wants. That is what satan wants you to believe about God. not what God wants you to believe about him.

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

do what? lol,, sorry, but I had to laugh.. if you read what i said, you would have realised you just agreed with me.. yes God knew him, knew everything about him. thats why he set him up in power. because he knew how he would react.

nope. he knew it, because again he knew how pharaoh would react. You think your free will fools God?

yep he does. puts the word in front of them, so seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear. because as I said, the more you reject truth, the more you believe the lie. God just strengthens your resolve when he puts truth in front of you knowing you will not believe.

and yes you do reject it. because your stating God forced a man, when God did no such thing. he put a man who would chose to do what he knew he needed done in power.

the only confusion is people who reject the omniscience of God. there is no confusion. God predestines based on foreknowledge. not on being a dictator and forcing people to do what he wants. That is what satan wants you to believe about God. not what God wants you to believe about him.

I cannot stop you from teaching this confusion. "God predestines based on foreknowledge". Lol. Can a dog be anything but a dog? Likewise we are what we are! I'll leave you to your work.

tek · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

The words “hardened” and “purposed” are quite different.
God hardened Pharaoh Heart not purposed Pharaoh Heart.
The hardening took place only after Pharaoh hardened it himself.
It is you who make decisions in your heart
2 Cor 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver

tek · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

We are not talking about Omnipotence and Omniscience. You are confusing Omnipotence and Omniscience with Free Will.

Free Will does not mean that you choose whether to be born in a wealthy family or poor family, whether to be rich or poor, whether to be born black or white, whether to be born in USA or Brazil, whether to be dog or a cat

eternally-gratefull · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

your the one who is confused my man.

If I had two men, and one job to do. and I could know which man would do exactly what I needed him to do. I would pick him, unfortunately. I am not God. thus I could possibly chose the wrong man for the job.

God is not that way, when he needs something done, he knows who will do it, who will react what way, and who will get the job done the way he needs it to be done. That is why he is God and I am not.

Funny how you do not want to discuss romans 9, but you want to tear me down as being confused. You need to learn some manners.

I am about Gods work. and showing him as the loving God he really is.. I will leave you to making him a God which is not a God of love, but makes robots out of everyone. we are all his toys which does nothing but what he wants us to do.. Which is exactly the lie satan used to get 1/3 of the angels to follow him. you think your knowledge is new??

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

tek said:

Exodus 9:15-16

15For by now I could have put out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth.
16*But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

yep. that is why he raised that particular guy up and put him in power, and not someone he knows would have change his heart because he believed in the signs God gave through moses. Imagine if he did not know how people would react. and put the wrong guy in charge. Then the red sea never would have happened.

Thank God he knows all things.

here is your problem. You might be right. But you can't prove us wrong. because the text given does not say we are wrong, or how God put him in place. it just shows why.

here is your second problem.

In your belief. God forced a man to not believe, and do what God wanted by making him a puppet. and not allowing him to do anything.

In my belief. there was nothing he could do that would change pharaohs mind anyway (heck look at what he did to him, even after taking his first born he did not believe out of pride) but he put him there because he knew how he would react!

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

Then let's discuss Romans 9 shall we?

11*(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12*It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

God had chosen to love Jacob and hate Esau BEFORE any one of them had done any good or evil.

Now I pose a few questions for you. I hope you answer in honesty for us all without prejudice.

Did Esau do any good in his life?

Likewise did Jacob do evil before the Lord?

If so, then why was it this way?

tek · Dec 12, 2012

PatientSpirit said:

You are confusing times "before" and "after" being "born again".
When you become born again Holy spirit comes into your heart and you become a different person and you hear from God and want to do his will i.e. no sinning

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God

PatientSpirit · Dec 12, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

It's that very same text that proves. If I made a coffee machine for the purpose of making coffee, should I then expect that machine to make bread? Of course not! It can only make coffee!

Now you say that there was nothing AN ALL POWERFUL God could do to change pharaoh's mind, and yet I'm sure that somewhere in one of your posts you have stated that without God's intervention, you would be as hardened as pharaoh.

God made pharaoh to make known His power. This was pharaoh's job like the coffee machine. He could ONLY do what he was made to do which again, was to make God's power known.

Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

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