Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 9:11,16
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

How can salvation be not about works but somehow we must find something inside ourselves to desire things of the Spirit when we are not made alive to the Spirit yet, and walk accordingly??

The passage you quoted was telling a child of God to abide in him, for we can do nothing without God. Why are you now trying to say we must do it first to be saved?

Jesus told us (his children) to abide in him, for we can do nothing without God. We can be his children and chose not to abide in him at a point in our life. can we do anything for God in this state?

You do understand romans 9: 11 is speaking of the calling of Isreal as a nation do you not? and not about the kids?

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”

Spoken to rebecca in 2000 BC Gen 5: 23 - 23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

so why are you trying to make it look like he is talking about kids?

Purpose of God according to election? What is election?

1. Election is based on predestination, which is based on foreknowledge.
2. Election is based on the choosing of the nation of Isreal. not because of the forefathers righteousness, as the jews claimed, but before they were even born.
3. The same elect as Paul said in romans 11. Isreal, is our enemy for the gospel (because they reject it) but to be beloved for the election.

Again I ask. Is Paul talking about two kids, or two nations? Scripture says nations, so why do you all want to make it kids? God told rebecca two nations. One shall serve the other, one shall rule over the other. Paul did not twist what God said, he just left the word (nations and peoples) out and paraphrased it because the people he spoke to would know he spoke ofnations not children.

If I would have known before hand how Good He Is I would have chosen Him. But He had to change me and show me His Love before I could see it. I was not smart enough or good enough to see His Goodness for myself before He Saved me.

And I agree. But he could not save you until he first removed your the penalty of sin and justified you. And God makes it clear. this is by faith only in his work. We can know we are condemned, in fact paul says we do know it (romans 1) this is why God draws us with his word, and other people, to show us the word to see what he is offering. You can see Gods goodness. it is in the gospel. you just will have problems fully understanding it until you are saved. It is called a book knowledge vs experiential knowledge. How can you experience Gods love if you have no free will and are preprogramed? you can't. Because you will not be given th eopportunity to fail again and see his forgiveness for real. because you have no free will to fail. you can only do what God says.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is that what is meant by 'many are called but few are chosen'?

That one has stumbled me a little from time to time...

Yes that is what I would take from it. Who does God chose? those who are saved. how are we saved? based on faith, not works.

If salvation comes by faith, and God choses us based on being saved. Then God chose us based on his foreknowledge that we would place our faith in him.

God brings MANY people to the word, and to church. Through US. I believe this is God calling them. God also uses us to give the gospel to friends and family. this would be God calling. But not everyone will believe, or recieve Gods word. Thus FEW will be chosen.

Remember, If as many say, we would never even look for God as a dead man. we would not even think of going to a church and checking it out. nor would we even be willing to listen to the Gospel. we would shun it and the one trying to give us Gods word.

 

[tek]

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I just don’t understand why you keep quoting this verse. Don’t you see that it’s about Christians only? You misunderstand that verse so much

Let me give you an example of where your theology or logic leads to. Hopefully you’ll get it:

Jack Ripper can’t do anything without Jesus. Jack Ripper can’t murder and rape without Jesus because without Jesus you can’t do nothing. But Jack Ripper did rape and murder. So it was Jesus who made him do it. Why was it Jesus who made him do it? Because without Jesus you can’t do nothing. So without Jesus you can’t rape and murder. So it is Jesus who was responsible for rape and murder. Jack Ripper is innocent and a very nice man.

Can you see the kind of non-sense you end up with your theology? I really can’t understand why you don’t see it

 

[tek]

Revelation 11:3-7

3*And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4*These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5*And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6*These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7*And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I just don't understand why do you shoot me a verse in response to my verse. It’s not a table tennis where you shoot ping-pongs back and forth all day long

 

[tek]

No man can come to God but by Jesus Christ, BUT no man can come to Jesus Christ unless the Father draws him. Where is the free will of man to choose in this?

Father draws everyone because God loved the whole world, and he is not willing anyone to perish

 

[tek]

How can you say these verses are about a dead person with the will inside to exercise his belief in Christ and then LIKE another's meaning of the SAME verses stating that it's about a saved person that still has a nature to sin?
This is CONFUSION.
I thought one who is born of God does not sin?

Well some people understand that passage to be about DEAD while others understand it to be about born again Christians

 

[PatientSpirit]

Father draws everyone because God loved the whole world, and he is not willing anyone to perish

So let me simply what you are saying. Man has free will to sin or not, or to accept salvation or not to accept.

God however WILLS, WANTS, DESIRES us ALL to be saved, but somehow or another His "free will" is prohibited by man's "free will" to choose sin and death???

THANK GOD SALVATION IS NOT LEFT UP TO MAN!!

Isaiah 28:16-18

16*Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17*Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18*And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

I have posted a couple times in the free will threads regarding motivated free will. I really cannot input much if I don't understand what kind of free will we are talking about existing or not. Motivated or unmotivated free will?

 

[tek]

I have posted a couple times in the free will threads regarding motivated free will. I really cannot input much if I don't understand what kind of free will we are talking about existing or not. Motivated or unmotivated free will?

no such thing as motivated free will

 

[tek]

Man has free will to sin

yes, that's what Eve and Adam did

 

[Grandpa]

I just don’t understand why you keep quoting this verse. Don’t you see that it’s about Christians only? You misunderstand that verse so much

Let me give you an example of where your theology or logic leads to. Hopefully you’ll get it:

Jack Ripper can’t do anything without Jesus. Jack Ripper can’t murder and rape without Jesus because without Jesus you can’t do nothing. But Jack Ripper did rape and murder. So it was Jesus who made him do it. Why was it Jesus who made him do it? Because without Jesus you can’t do nothing. So without Jesus you can’t rape and murder. So it is Jesus who was responsible for rape and murder. Jack Ripper is innocent and a very nice man.

Can you see the kind of non-sense you end up with your theology? I really can’t understand why you don’t see it

I do see how it is to Christians only. That was the point.

I was not trying to make the point that you did. You keep trying to show that God is the author of sin, I never do.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

no such thing as motivated free will

The spirit of man is motivated, period. Are you trying to tell me you're not motivated by a spirit? Either you are a motivator, or you are motivated. Only God is both motivator of Good, and motivated by Good, and God also has a motivated body. Satan is also a motivator.

 

[tek]

Man has free will to accept salvation.

yes, that's what the answer is about
1 Pet 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[Jon4TheCross]

I would agree that man has motivated free will to accept salvation.

 

[tek]

I do see how it is to Christians only. That was the point.

why did you quote it in responce to this verse then
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

 

[tek]

I would agree that man has motivated free will to accept salvation.

motivated free will is the same as predestination

 

[Jon4TheCross]

motivated free will is the same as predestination

The soul is the motivated free will of the concience. Predestination is a word that must be defined before I can talk about predestination.

Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph_1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

motivated free will is the same as predestination

Romans 6:16-18
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Isn't that what these verses are saying?

 

[plussizedstickbug]

I see predestined by what was pre set destiny foreknown and forordained to be The Way and The Truth and The Life.
The what is not a ideology but a Who and the Who is The Lord Jesus Christ.
And in this all those who believe that He is who He says He is and was even that Same One that was from the beginning of the world made for Him.

Al those who were predestined to enter into His destiny He already was foreordained to be The King of His Kingdom and Lord of His people all that accept Him and His reign.

This was to be and is The only Way to enter into Life and unto The Father and it by Him who only had to Truth the Words of Eternal Life.

It is the entering into The Kingdom predestined to be even prepared by God to be The Kingdom of Heaven which was and is The Kingdom of God who like wise by the death of the owner and God who is a spirit can not die but that One already foreordained to come manifested in the flesh could die in His flesh but Live still in His spirit even to come again into that body of flesh His tabernacle and take it back up into Heaven...He was The one who inherited The Kingdom of God whom came unto the world manifested in flesh and they slew Him so be it then god who is Father grants all unto His unto that same One He sent unto them in them in this world manifested in Flesh the Son of The Father who was One and the same as The Father ..is that same Lord that was slain as a Prince The Prince of Peace.
Yet This Prince liveth still because He was raided up and He who died yet now liveth was given all The Kingdom for His inheritance because He always was The One who was with God

There is only One Lord and He is God and this was from the beginning declared and known no matter how He confronts and ocmes in and of and as The I Am ..That I Am unto you.

It is the reconciliation of all even in this whole world unto Him Own Self not as servants but as children sons and daughters of the Father that predestined them to be adopted this was......even those who never knew Him and were as heathen brutes. He says Come unto Me and all that do and will are His.

We were only predestined to become His possessions as His Children as it is Our Father who adopted us through Christ Jesus to be One with God the Father who is Lord even that Lord manifested unto us that still lives and reigns as such.

All that enter elect to do so by believing He Christ Jesus is who He says He is and it is The Truth and they choose that One and Way even their Hope that still is even after they die still there even better face to face with Him who beget us by His Truth/There is only one who is Truth and that is God who speaks the Word of God and His Death and His Life that death can not take keep hold or remove because it is Spirit which never dies nor has death in it.

Is it possible for men to be offended at The Only Way unto The Father is also The Only Name given unto man in which to enter into eternal Life unto the Father? Yes it is still even today a Rock of offense and rock that stumbles them in the darkness they they walk in and under.

And this is a matter of heart mind and soul and only God only the Lord can see know and judge that which men can not.
So His ways are not fully understood by man because there are ways not assigned unto men to practice know or hold as theirs.
Because their is only One Judge who judges all and that is God even The Lord even by the inward parts the deep hidden parts.

So that is what predestination and predestined by it means to me.
Laodicean made a comment reply the other day and what he or she said was quiet enormous as to how we see even one verse of scripture.
And that is to see Christ see Jesus in those scriptures not private individuals but Him and he then is all things unto us who are in Him.

I do not take offense at Calvinism because of the way I see and understand it.
Yet I do not take offense at calling the members of the church the elect members individuals of the elected body of our Head and Authority Lord Jesus Christ who is the King the beloved Son of His kingdom. They became these members by Christ the Child the Son of god be destiny destined to be their predestined election elected Way to become members of the family of God.
By the same common Salvation that is unto all who are Saved there in and by.

How many children are there we can not count them for all have been given over to Him from Adam to these now present.
Ephesians 1:5

[FONT=&quot]Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,[/FONT]

predestinated to go where in this destination already predetermined? The Way Who is as was unto Us and For us to be adopted through Him and by Him grafted into all as One no male no female no greek no jew all are one child of God.

I see a Way The Way predestined and all that are in The Way are adopted to translated/ taken from / separated out from/ moved and placed/ from this world to this Kingdom even in earth as it is in heaven they are made and fashioned for and to enter there in.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[Grandpa]

why did you quote it in responce to this verse then
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

Because a person can't choose Life without the Lord. Without Him there is no Life. Without Him there is no choice. Without Him there is nothing.