ROMANS, CHAPTER 8

[miknik5]

Only if we let God do a work in us.
Jude 24 says God is able to keep us from falling, and present us faultless, But we have to do what v 20 says,
"Build ourselves up, Pray in the Holy Ghost and keep ourselves in the love of God.

We have our part to do.

John 3:8 says the "wind' goes where it listeth.
after that we are to press on for that upward call in CHRIST, laying hold of HIM who TOOK HOLD OF US...

 

[John146]

This is most likely how Romans 8:1 reads. The last clause appears to be an unoriginal repeat of the end of verse 4. Most biblical scholars agree.

1 .) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, w̶h̶o̶ ̶w̶a̶l̶k̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶l̶e̶s̶h̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶S̶p̶i̶r̶i̶t̶. 2 .) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 .) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 .) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It took all of one comment to start correcting the Bible. Boy, I wish we had something that we could trust in 100%. If we don't, we have no defense against this world. They'll just claim, "well, you don't even believe the book your reading" and they'd be right.

Read the Bible. Study the Bible. Believe the Bible. Obey the Bible. Defend the Bible.

There is obviously condemnation to those believers who walk after the flesh. It may not be eternal condemnation, but there is certainly temporal condemnation for walking after the flesh. This temporal condemnation may be in this life or at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Either way, the Christian who walks after the flesh will be judged.

 

[Cee]

Why don't people walk in the reality they are new creations in Christ?

5We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

How do we take every thought obedient to Christ? We agree with what He says. If you who know so much about Scripture don't believe people are new creations, why would they? The truth is that the knowledge of God is NOT being taught. It's being attacked just like it is in this forum, and then people say well if this is true why isn't happening? The same reason people are not being saved without knowing the truth of Christ.

Until you understand the reality of what the cross did, you will attack it, fight against it, kick against the goads, but then out of the other side of your mouth you will tell people how they need to change while neutering the power that does.

We have to come to obedience to what God says. And that first means agreeing with Him.

1. Yes we are new creations.
2. Yes we are to be obedient to Him.
3. Yes His law is written on our hearts and minds.
4. Yes we are to despise sin.
5. Yes we are made holy.
6. Yes we are to be holy.

It's not either or, it's both. It's all.

C.

 

[Angela53510]

It took all of one comment to start correcting the Bible. Boy, I wish we had something that we could trust in 100%. If we don't, we have no defense against this world. They'll just claim, "well, you don't even believe the book your reading" and they'd be right.

Read the Bible. Study the Bible. Believe the Bible. Obey the Bible. Defend the Bible.

There is obviously condemnation to those believers who walk after the flesh. It may not be eternal condemnation, but there is certainly temporal condemnation for walking after the flesh. This temporal condemnation may be in this life or at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Either way, the Christian who walks after the flesh will be judged.

No, HeRose is absolutely correct! That part he crossed off was transposed by tired or incompetent scribes, and then translated by Erasmus, who gave his copy to the KJ translation committee. Which are some of the mistakes you get after copying a text over and over for 1500 years. That is why the earliest texts are the best.

You need to look into lower textual criticism. It does not criticize the meaning of the Bible, but rather traces the path of the manuscripts copied by scribes. It is a very exact science. They know exactly which copy started a transmission error, and how it was passed on. If you learn to read Greek and get a UBS Greek NT or a Nestle-Åland Greek NT, they publish at the bottom of the page each variation in the text on that page, as well as which is the most likely reading of the original autographs, based on following the manuscripts.

I believe in God. I believe he preserved his word, so that we have it to lead, guide, correct and teach us. But that doesn't mean perfect people copied the manuscripts, nor translated them.

Translating from Greek is an art and a science. You really have to have a feel for the language you are reading. And then how to put it into a form of English that makes sense. That is why the KJV is ignored by most scholars. Too many copied manuscript mistakes, obscure language and language from a very different time since words change their form rapidly.

 

[John146]

That is why the KJV is ignored by most scholars. Too many copied manuscript mistakes, obscure language and language from a very different time since words change their form rapidly.

Right, because most people want to be the final authority on what God has said. You don't want to submit to a book, instead your own intellect. FYI, the earliest manuscripts were rejected by the majority of Christians because they had been corrupted. There's a reason why the lasted so long. They were sitting on a shelf. What do you have that you can trust 100%?

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

I thought John 8 with the woman caught in adultery wasnt in the scripture, which bible has that taken out?

 

[fredoheaven]

No, HeRose is absolutely correct! That part he crossed off was transposed by tired or incompetent scribes, and then translated by Erasmus, who gave his copy to the KJ translation committee. Which are some of the mistakes you get after copying a text over and over for 1500 years. That is why the earliest texts are the best.

You need to look into lower textual criticism. It does not criticize the meaning of the Bible, but rather traces the path of the manuscripts copied by scribes. It is a very exact science. They know exactly which copy started a transmission error, and how it was passed on. If you learn to read Greek and get a UBS Greek NT or a Nestle-Åland Greek NT, they publish at the bottom of the page each variation in the text on that page, as well as which is the most likely reading of the original autographs, based on following the manuscripts.

I believe in God. I believe he preserved his word, so that we have it to lead, guide, correct and teach us. But that doesn't mean perfect people copied the manuscripts, nor translated them.

Translating from Greek is an art and a science. You really have to have a feel for the language you are reading. And then how to put it into a form of English that makes sense. That is why the KJV is ignored by most scholars. Too many copied manuscript mistakes, obscure language and language from a very different time since words change their form rapidly.

Hi Ma'am Angela,

Am really saddened by this post of yours that I can't explain. Why hatred on the KJV? You said it is absolutely correct that the ten words be left out of the Romans 8:1 but the trail of MS evidence of the ten words are many and you only depend on the Nestle text which depended on Wescott and Hort said. I don't want to label you as
Bible Corrector only because you know how to read Hebrew and Greek. The kings translators did a very good job. The very succinct answer to this seeming problem is found in verse 13 that this condemnation refers to Christians living after the flesh and because of this God inflect sickness or even destroys his body as in someone doing amiss in participating the Lords Supper.

Ma'am I already ask this question sometime but was ignored: Are you in a Translation Committee?

Thanks...

 

[posthuman]

This is most likely how Romans 8:1 reads. The last clause appears to be an unoriginal repeat of the end of verse 4. Most biblical scholars agree.

1 .) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, w̶h̶o̶ ̶w̶a̶l̶k̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶l̶e̶s̶h̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶S̶p̶i̶r̶i̶t̶. 2 .) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 .) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 .) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That's how the false grace teachers will put it. They will miss out the, "Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".

um, it's in verse 4. it's not a "deleted thought."

HRFTD is correct; this is very likely a copying error.

and there in verse 4 -- it says "us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit"

it's not presenting a "choice" -- it's stating a reality about all those who have believed & placed their hope in Christ. see chapter 7 ((what the "therefore" is there for)). i find a new law within me that is contrary to the flesh. how well do i walk after it? how much do i stumble? how far along am i? those questions don't change the reality: that the spirit gives life, and the flesh profits nothing.

 

[posthuman]

Only if we let God do a work in us.
Jude 24 says God is able to keep us from falling, and present us faultless, But we have to do what v 20 says,
"Build ourselves up, Pray in the Holy Ghost and keep ourselves in the love of God.

We have our part to do.

but we "are being built" by Him.

you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
(1 Peter 2:5)


​

And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
(Ephesians 2:22)​

is that my own work? how is this reconciled with Jude?

God is only able to keep me from stumbling if i keep myself from stumbling? He is faithful to complete the work He began only if i am faithful to complete the work He began?
He is the Creator of my feet only in the sense that He produced a bag of lego foot-parts and it's on me to put them together?
surely not lol. He made my hands and my eyes and my comprehension also. all things that are necessary to do any work are from Him, and all the work is Him living, working and willing in me -- every bit of this is His mercy.

keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
(Jude 1:21)​

how do i "keep myself" ?
bearing in mind that He is the One who is able to keep me?

by believing and clinging to Him, and enduring in that sure hope, the Anchor of my soul . . yes?
but even when i am faithless, He is faithful -- when i lose my grip i fall into His hand!
i love Him ♥
He is the Living Mercy of God, enduring forever!!

 

[posthuman]

Oh, I missed the correction. Thank you.

btw, you were the person who mentioned believing in the new creation. Care to correct that?

i'm not familiar with the conversation y'all are referring to, but i'm glad to see the explanation for "obedience to the new creation" too -- that makes a lot more sense, thanks Grace777x70.

when i read "faith is believing in the new creation" ((here in this thread)) i understood that to probably be referring to believing in the redemptive work of God through faith in Christ: that whoever is in Christ becomes new, and the old things are passed away. that this statement is a reference to His salvation, because the work of salvation is making whoever believes in Christ a new creature, after the new Adam, taking away sin and granting eternal life, conforming us into the perfect image of the Son.

. . i didn't read it as meaning that somehow we 'worshiped' the new creature or that was what we placed faith in -- but just a way of describing the whole redemptive work succinctly, because the new creation is emblematic of the gospel. it doesn't exist without the gospel, and is the inevitable end of truly believing in the gospel.

so i didn't have a problem with it. but maybe ((probably?)) i'm assuming a lot, because i don't know anything about the conversation/thread that this seems to be a reference to/from.

 

[fredoheaven]

um, it's in verse 4. it's not a "deleted thought."

HRFTD is correct; this is very likely a copying error.

and there in verse 4 -- it says "us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit"

it's not presenting a "choice" -- it's stating a reality about all those who have believed & placed their hope in Christ. see chapter 7 ((what the "therefore" is there for)). i find a new law within me that is contrary to the flesh. how well do i walk after it? how much do i stumble? how far along am i? those questions don't change the reality: that the spirit gives life, and the flesh profits nothing.

Hi,

Thank you for the input but we are not talking about the "thoughts" we are talking about the words, the reality of ten words of the Romans 8:1.

A usual defense mechanism by the Textual critics and saying errors caused by homoeoteleuton called Dittography which is when a word or group of words is picked up a second time by the scribe and as a result the same line is copied twice when it only appears once.

As per context of Romans chapter 8, verses 4-10, also teaches us that faithful Christians are to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This has to do with our Christian living. The Christian is in a constant battle between the Spirit and the flesh (Galatians 5:16-18). There is no condemnation for the Believer who is following the Holy Spirit. However, there is condemnation for those who do not follow the leading of the Spirit, but seek to follow their own flesh.

Thanks

 

[posthuman]

I suggest you read Romans 10.
Because GOD says otherwise...and HE isn't fooled by that TRUE (or false) CONFESSION/PROFESSION upon the heart...

For it is with the heart (which is not hidden from GOD) one believes...

i suggest we ALL read ALL of Romans. over and over

 

[posthuman]

Hi,

Thank you for the input but we are not talking about the "thoughts" we are talking about the words, the reality of ten words of the Romans 8:1.

A usual defense mechanism by the Textual critics and saying errors caused by homoeoteleuton called Dittography which is when a word or group of words is picked up a second time by the scribe and as a result the same line is copied twice when it only appears once.

As per context of Romans chapter 8, verses 4-10, also teaches us that faithful Christians are to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This has to do with our Christian living. The Christian is in a constant battle between the Spirit and the flesh (Galatians 5:16-18). There is no condemnation for the Believer who is following the Holy Spirit. However, there is condemnation for those who do not follow the leading of the Spirit, but seek to follow their own flesh.

Thanks

hi,

God4me ((the guy i quoted)) was talking about the thoughts. he said the thought was "missed."

and then you started talking about the thought in this post too.

i don't know why we should talk about words without talking about what they mean, lol.

the words themselves are not "missing" -- they are in verse 4, as i said ((talking about the words)). their inclusion in verse 1 is i believe a scribal error ((talking about the words)). the thought is not at all changed ((talking about the thought)) by the inclusion/exclusion of the words ((talking about the words)) in verse 1 ((talking about the scribal error)).

if it hadn't been in the KJV ((talking about idolizing a translation)) i don't think we'd be having this conversation ((talking about the words that are representing thoughts)).

thanks

 

[crossnote]

Hi Ma'am Angela,

Am really saddened by this post of yours that I can't explain. Why hatred on the KJV? You said it is absolutely correct that the ten words be left out of the Romans 8:1 but the trail of MS evidence of the ten words are many and you only depend on the Nestle text which depended on Wescott and Hort said. I don't want to label you as
Bible Corrector only because you know how to read Hebrew and Greek. The kings translators did a very good job. The very succinct answer to this seeming problem is found in verse 13 that this condemnation refers to Christians living after the flesh and because of this God inflect sickness or even destroys his body as in someone doing amiss in participating the Lords Supper.

Ma'am I already ask this question sometime but was ignored: Are you in a Translation Committee?

Thanks...

Philip Comfort is a well respected language/manuscript expert...at least more so than we...

WH NU end verse at Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (“Christ Jesus”)
ℵ✱ B C2 D✱ (F G with space for addition) 1739 itb,d✱ cop
NKJVmg RSV NRSV ESV NASB NIV TNIV NEB REB NJB NAB NLT HCSB NET
variant 1 add μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν
“not walking according to the flesh”
A D1 Ψ syrp
none
variant 2/TR add μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα
“not walking according to the flesh, but according to Spirit”
ℵ2 D2 33vid Maj syrh
KJV NKJV ESVmg NIVmg HCSBmg NETmg


According to the best manuscript evidence, followed by all modern versions, Paul simply states, “there is therefore no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.” This was then expanded in two phases—the latter being the more accretive and more recent. Both expansions were taken from 8:4, and both attempt to clarify how it is that believers are no longer under condemnation. But [p. 449] Paul does not attempt to put any condition on our justification. The condition—“not according to flesh but according to spirit”—is placed in 8:4, which speaks of the righteous requirements of the law being fulfilled in those who do not live in the flesh but in the Spirit.

 

[Cee]

Condemnation?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

1 John 3:20 For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

A little deeper dive in Romans 8...

Romans 8:1

1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life has set you[SUP][b][/SUP] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[SUP][c][/SUP] he condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If you stop here you'll miss where Paul is going...

[SUP] 9[/SUP]You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.


You're not in the flesh, but in the Spirit - IF IN FACT the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Does the Spirit of God dwell in you? If not, you don't belong to Him.

C.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Does anyone know if there is a bible that exists without the woman caught in adultery in it?

I dont want to open a thread up for that, but since it wasnt supposedly in the earlier manuscripts I thought I would buy that bible (seeing it is more perfect like) maybe.

 

[posthuman]

it's not presenting a "choice" -- it's stating a reality about all those who have believed & placed their hope in Christ. see chapter 7 ((what the "therefore" is there for)).

actually see chapters 1-7.

particularly 4-7.

even particularly this bit from 6:

For one who has died has been set free from sin.
(Romans 6:7)​

this is why we have no more condemnation -- because whoever has by faith been immersed in Christ has been immersed into His death, to be also raised with Him.
this is the first thing Paul says to "do" in the whole book: consider yourselves dead to sin & alive to God in Christ Jesus. why? because you have died. by faith in Him, you are included in Him, so you died in Him, and will be raised in Him: you now live in Him; in Him is life.

this is how & why we walk in the spirit, without limbs, instead of after the flesh: because we have died. we're dead. we're grateful!

there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ, because those who are in Christ have died with Him, and whoever has died has been set free from sin.
since we're dead to the flesh, there is only one way we can walk: by spirit. so wake up! realize you've died; live like it. why are you wasting your time mucking about with that corpse?

♥

live as dead men!​

 

[posthuman]

Does anyone know if there is a bible that exists without the woman caught in adultery in it?

I dont want to open a thread up for that, but since it wasnt supposedly in the earlier manuscripts I thought I would buy that bible (seeing it is more perfect like) maybe.

my 1984 NIV has it, but has a space first and a big note about how it is probably a later addition. i think i remember reading somewhere that it is believed to be a true account - not made up - that had been passed around throughout the churches and was eventually inserted there, fairly early on, actually, but probably wasn't actually written in the original gospel as the apostle recorded it.

the gospels say that Jesus did many other things that aren't written down. way too many to be written down. i don't doubt that this is a true story at all, and the image of Him stooping & writing in the dust, ignoring them while they are trying to get a reaction from Him and trap Him with His words is one of my favorite of Him!

 

[fredoheaven]

hi,

God4me ((the guy i quoted)) was talking about the thoughts. he said the thought was "missed."

and then you started talking about the thought in this post too.

i don't know why we should talk about words without talking about what they mean, lol.

the words themselves are not "missing" -- they are in verse 4, as i said ((talking about the words)). their inclusion in verse 1 is i believe a scribal error ((talking about the words)). the thought is not at all changed ((talking about the thought)) by the inclusion/exclusion of the words ((talking about the words)) in verse 1 ((talking about the scribal error)).

if it hadn't been in the KJV ((talking about idolizing a translation)) i don't think we'd be having this conversation ((talking about the words that are representing thoughts)).

thanks

Oh I am sorry for that Post... but it so just happens that the KJV is a pure words of God so that I need to defend it. No need to idolize it. Only God is to be worship. The so called "missing ten words" in Romans 8:1 are not missing. Only critics of the bible have messed up. But not to prolong conversation with you, at least this is what I believe regards to Romans 8:1 in relation to the omission of.

The passage in Romans 8:1 is by no means a scribal error (unless one inadvertly omitted the Biblical phrase). Instead, we must conclude upon both the textual promise of God concerning preservation and the contextual passage itself that the passage is genuine and has only been omitted by those forces which seek to pervert and not preserve.

Here are evidences:

Miniscules:
Among them are 33, 88, 104, 181, 326, 330, 451, 614, 630, 1241, 1877, 1962, 1984, 1985, 2492, and 2495.Among them are 33, 88, 104, 181, 326, 330, 451, 614, 630, 1241, 1877, 1962, 1984, 1985, 2492, and 2495.

It is also included in Codex K (ninth century), Codex P (ninth century), and stands in the corrected margin of both Codex Sinaiticus (fourth century) and Codex Claromontanus (sixth century) and others.

Thanks and God bless you

 

[posthuman]

Oh I am sorry for that Post... but it so just happens that the KJV is a pure words of God

*sigh*

not this again . .

sometimes i wish we all spoke español.
then this subject would never come up.
which is actually a very pertinent, and telling point.

fred, say you want to translate the scripture into spanish?
what's the first thing you do -- grab the kjv and a spanish-english dictionary?
or go for some hebrew & greek manuscripts?

case closed.