ROMANS, CHAPTER 8
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Amen...well said...Part of growing up to as a son in the kingdom of God is to know that you are indeed a son. Identity in Christ is paramount in growing up in Him.
I firmly believe that the Lord is addressing this issue of being a child of God and is bringing revelation to us of what Christ has done for us with His finished work.
Satan has his counterfeit stuff and you can see it in the world now - transgender, non-gender, ethnic separations in countries. Satan is trying to mimic what God is doing in the Spirit with the body of Christ.
I firmly believe that the Lord is addressing this issue of being a child of God and is bringing revelation to us of what Christ has done for us with His finished work.
Satan has his counterfeit stuff and you can see it in the world now - transgender, non-gender, ethnic separations in countries. Satan is trying to mimic what God is doing in the Spirit with the body of Christ.
There is in fact an experience where we come out of our body as Paul talked about such an experience and he said he didn't know whether he was in or out of the body when he was caught up to the 3rd heaven. John in Rev.1:10 had the same experience. That is a manifestation of being in the Spirit and your spirit by-passes our body and that is done by the Holy Spirit. We don't conjure that up.
But as far as the believer in Christ goes - they are always "in the Spirit"...that's why we need to teach the gospel of the grace of Christ so that people will grow up to what has happened to them. That they are in fact new creations.
Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
What you are confusing is "walking after the Spirit" and "being in the Spirit".
Walking by the Spirit is when we are looking to Christ for life, righteousness, holiness, our provision, and as the only One who can satisfy us with the abundance of His grace and goodness. "Walking by the Spirit" puts to death the deeds of the body.
Romans 8:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
We are "in the Spirit" because we are born again and have the Spirit of God in us.
Knowing and teaching the difference between the these two truths is needed in order for a Christian to grow up in Christ.
Well said. For those who doubt that believers can face condemnation, check out Romans 14:
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14 is not talking about eternal damnation or eternal condemnation but rather temporal judgment for not walking charitably, instead, walking selfishly after your own fleshly desires. The believer who does this knowingly will be judged for it.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14 is not talking about eternal damnation or eternal condemnation but rather temporal judgment for not walking charitably, instead, walking selfishly after your own fleshly desires. The believer who does this knowingly will be judged for it.
The Lord Jesus finished all His work as becoming flesh. He fulfilled all prophesies concerning Him as a man. Without the resurrection, His death would have been in vain. The power is in the resurrection. In essence, His work was not finished. He became sin for us on the cross, but if He didn't conquer sin through the resurrection, we'd have no hope.
What you said is true in a sense but the word for "condemneth" in Rom 14:22 is not the same Greek word for Romans 8:1 ( punishment, a judgment made against them ). They have different meanings although you see "condemn" in both verses.
This Christian does not have any condemnation ( punishment ) because he is in Christ but he is in verse 22 " judging, deciding between, distinguish, determine" himself because he doesn't eat in faith.
"Judging, deciding between, determine" are the meanings for the Greek word "condemneth" in Rom 14:22
This is why it is important to get a Greek interlinear so that you will be able to distinguish the different words used. One word for condemnation in KJV and another word translated as condemn - do not have the same meanings and thus if we can get things confused.
There are many Greek interlinears based on the KJV version of the bible so you can still use that one if you want.
The Lord made all these Greek tools available to us so that we can rightly divide the word of truth.
Thanks for the advice. I know you mean well, but I'll stick with book. There is condemnation upon believers if they are not walking "after the Spirit" but "after the flesh." You can't be a believer and walk after the flesh and get away with it. God's going to either chasten you in this life or remove rewards and inheritance at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Here's another example in 1 Corinthians 11:
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Because some of those believers were partaking in the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner, they were judged for it. They didn't lose their salvation, but many of them were made sick and weak and even died. The Lord's not going to allow His children to be disobedient without His chastening.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Because some of those believers were partaking in the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner, they were judged for it. They didn't lose their salvation, but many of them were made sick and weak and even died. The Lord's not going to allow His children to be disobedient without His chastening.
Let's just stick with Romans 8:1 and condemnation and get that one covered before we add other stuff.
If a believer walks after the flesh - they still have no condemnation in Christ with God pronouncing judgment on them because Christ took our judgment. However here on this earth there are major consequences to walking after the flesh. Try killing someone in Texas and they will "kill you back".
It's in knowing that we have no condemnation in Christ that releases His life in us to live by the Spirit within so that we will not fulfill it's lusts. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2 - right after the "no condemnation" verse. Knowing this is what releases His life in us.
If this truth was preached - I believe the other things about walking after or by the Spirit would bear mush fruit and it will be His fruit being manifested and not our own fleshly attempts.
I understand you defending your book but I'm only saying that God has given you other tools to get the most out of your book like a Greek word interlinear.
God uses other things along with His scriptures to reveal the things of God. Jesus said to look at the lilies of the field, the birds of the air for revelation of the Father. The Lord uses many things to reveal truth to us especially the written scriptures but they need to be divided rightly or we get things all messed up.
If a believer walks after the flesh - they still have no condemnation in Christ with God pronouncing judgment on them because Christ took our judgment. However here on this earth there are major consequences to walking after the flesh. Try killing someone in Texas and they will "kill you back".
It's in knowing that we have no condemnation in Christ that releases His life in us to live by the Spirit within so that we will not fulfill it's lusts. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2 - right after the "no condemnation" verse. Knowing this is what releases His life in us.
If this truth was preached - I believe the other things about walking after or by the Spirit would bear mush fruit and it will be His fruit being manifested and not our own fleshly attempts.
I understand you defending your book but I'm only saying that God has given you other tools to get the most out of your book like a Greek word interlinear.
God uses other things along with His scriptures to reveal the things of God. Jesus said to look at the lilies of the field, the birds of the air for revelation of the Father. The Lord uses many things to reveal truth to us especially the written scriptures but they need to be divided rightly or we get things all messed up.
God didn't give me a linear Greek anything. That's all on man and man wanting to correct the Bible. The KJV defines itself. It has its own built in dictionary and take study to shew yourself approved unto God.
You only know God uses His creation because He told us so in His book. If it weren't in His book, then it wouldn't be so.
You only know God uses His creation because He told us so in His book. If it weren't in His book, then it wouldn't be so.
Jesus didn't mean salvation was finished, and He didn't say it was, DID HE??.
He could have meant the physical pain was about to end, He could have meant the fulfilment of the prophecies about His death were finished.
But those who know the Bible, will know it wasn't salvation that was finished.
Because Jesus was Spiritually dead, Matt 27: 46, and had to go to hell, Acts 2; 27, and had to be raised up from Spiritual death, Col 1: 18. 1 Pet 3: 18. Rev 1: 5. And physical death, 1 Cor 15: 17--20. Rom 4: 25.
There are not 2 Spirits...one for being in you and another for us being in Him. There is only us walking by the Spirit and being led by the Spirit within us and because of our union with Christ - we are in the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Romans 8:9 says it all - we have the Holy Spirit in us and we are in the Spirit.
Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
What you are confusing is "walking after the Spirit" and "being in the Spirit".
Walking by the Spirit is when we are looking to Christ for life, righteousness, holiness, our provision, and as the only One who can satisfy us with the abundance of His grace and goodness. "Walking by the Spirit" puts to death the deeds of the body.
Romans 8:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
We are "in the Spirit" because we are born again and have the Spirit of God in us.
No, I am not on a translation committee, but my Greek prof is on the ESV and NIV committees. As we translated, he made notes of things we uncovered, to take back to the committee. He also explained why certain decisions were made by both committees. And that ESV was not a fresh translation, but rather stuck to "traditional" translations, meaning it tends to follow the KJV.
Wescott and Hort are simply not the best Greek texts for the NT. Like I said, Nestle- Åland and UBS use ALL the manuscripts, and the list EVERY variation. And which variations are closest to the original, by following the mistakes down through the manuscripts as they are copied and re-copied.
The Byzantine or so-called Textus Receptus (TR) are in the majority there is no doubt. But they are much later than the best manuscripts. That is because the Byzantines spoke Greek, so they were able to get lots of copyists to copy the manuscripts. The four unintentional errors that copyists made are:
1. Errors of Sight - As the scribes looked back and forth from the text to what they were copying, they made mistakes. Sometimes they confused letters, or divided words wrongly (the oldest Greek manuscripts had no spaces between words.) They repeated words, accidentally skipped letters, words or section is (ie copied the same thing twice) or changed the order of letters in a word or words in a sentence. For example in Codex Vaticanus, in Gal. 1:11, a scribe accidentally wrote "to euaggeliov" (the gospel) three times in succession.
2. Errors of Hearing. When scribes copied manuscripts through dictation, errors of hearing were made. For example, vowels or diphthongs were misheard, as in Matt 2:6 in Codex Sinaiticus, where ek sou (from you) has been wrongly heard, and written as "eks ou" (from whom). We make similar mistakes in English, for instance, writing "night" when someone says "knight."
3. Errors of Writing. Sometimes scribes introduced errors into texts simply by writing the wrong thing. For example, in Codex Alexdrinus, at John 13:37, a scribe accidentally wrote "dunasai moi" rather than "dunamai soi."Rather than saying to Jesus, "whey can't I follow you now?" Peter now queries "why can't you follow me now?"
4. Errors of Judgement. Sometimes a scribe exercised poor judgement by incorporating marginal glosses (ancient footnotes) into the body of the text, or by incorporating similar unintentional corrupting influences. In the 14th century Codex 109, for example, an incompetent scribe has apparently copied continuous lines of text from a manuscript that listed the genealogy of Jesus (Luke 3:23-38) in two columns. The resulting genealogy has all the family relations scrambled, even listing God as the son of Aram.
The six intentional errors are only 5% and represent intentional activity on the part of the scribes:
1. Revising Grammar and Spelling. In an attempt to standardize grammar or spelling, scribes corrected what they perceived as orthographic or grammatical errors in the text they were copyin. For example, John originally put the nominative case after the preposition "apo" in Revelation 1:4. Later scribes have inserted a genitive form.
2. Harmonizing Similar Passage. Scribes had a tendency to harmonize parallel passages and introduce uniformity to stylized expressions. For example, details from the same incident in multiple gospels might be included when copying any one gospel. Even today, Greek students often unintentionally insert "Lord" or "Christ" when translating a passage with the name "Jesus." They are not intending to promote a "higher" Christology, they are simply conforming their speech to a stylized reference to the Saviour. Ancient scribes behaved in a similar way.
3. Eliminating Apparent Discrepancies and Difficulties. Scribes sometimes "fixed" what they perceived as a problem in the text. Origen perceived a geographical difficult at John 1:28, he changed "Bethany" to "Betharaba."
4. Conflating the text. Sometimes when a scribe knew of variant readings in the manuscript base from which he was copying, he woujld simply include both variants within his copy, conflating them. For example, in Acts 20:28, some early manuscripts read "the church of God,"while others read "the church of the Lord." Later manuscripts conflate these reading as "the church of the Lord and God."
5. Adapting Different Liturgical Tradiitons. In a few isolated places, it is possible that church liturgy (ie stylized prayers or praises) influenced some text additions or wording changes. For example in Matt 6:13 "For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen." Sorry to say that the Catholics got that one right.
6. Making Theoloigcal or Doctrinal Changes. Some scribes made theoloigcal or doctinical changes, either omitting something they saw as wrong, or making clarifying additions. For example, in Matt 24:36, some manuscripts omit the references to the Son's ignorance of the day of his return - a passage that is obviously difficult to understand.
As for the KJV, it relied heavily on Erasmus translation. He only had 7 manuscripts, most of poor quality. Today, we have more than 5800 ancient manuscripts or partial manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. They Byzantine is recognized by scholars as a later conflation of text traditions and not as reliable as eclectic scholarly additions produced by text critics. Although there is a tiny minority of scholars who insist that only one "family" of ancient manuscripts preserves the text, they are aligned mostly with the KJV Only movement. Thus they start with the KJV and then find manuscripts to support the KJV, instead, of critically examine all the manuscripts from all 4 families (Alexandrian, Caesarean, Western and Byzantine.)*
I'm not saying someone can't get saved reading the KJV or grow as a Christian. Just that there are so many mistakes because the translation committee had to rely on much later manuscripts which were rife with copyist errors, as I posted above.
There is much more, but this post is already too long.
*Kostenberger, Merkle and Plummer. Going Deeper with New Testament Greek: An Intermediate Study f the Grammar and Syntax of the New Testament, vv 25; 30-31
Wescott and Hort are simply not the best Greek texts for the NT. Like I said, Nestle- Åland and UBS use ALL the manuscripts, and the list EVERY variation. And which variations are closest to the original, by following the mistakes down through the manuscripts as they are copied and re-copied.
The Byzantine or so-called Textus Receptus (TR) are in the majority there is no doubt. But they are much later than the best manuscripts. That is because the Byzantines spoke Greek, so they were able to get lots of copyists to copy the manuscripts. The four unintentional errors that copyists made are:
1. Errors of Sight - As the scribes looked back and forth from the text to what they were copying, they made mistakes. Sometimes they confused letters, or divided words wrongly (the oldest Greek manuscripts had no spaces between words.) They repeated words, accidentally skipped letters, words or section is (ie copied the same thing twice) or changed the order of letters in a word or words in a sentence. For example in Codex Vaticanus, in Gal. 1:11, a scribe accidentally wrote "to euaggeliov" (the gospel) three times in succession.
2. Errors of Hearing. When scribes copied manuscripts through dictation, errors of hearing were made. For example, vowels or diphthongs were misheard, as in Matt 2:6 in Codex Sinaiticus, where ek sou (from you) has been wrongly heard, and written as "eks ou" (from whom). We make similar mistakes in English, for instance, writing "night" when someone says "knight."
3. Errors of Writing. Sometimes scribes introduced errors into texts simply by writing the wrong thing. For example, in Codex Alexdrinus, at John 13:37, a scribe accidentally wrote "dunasai moi" rather than "dunamai soi."Rather than saying to Jesus, "whey can't I follow you now?" Peter now queries "why can't you follow me now?"
4. Errors of Judgement. Sometimes a scribe exercised poor judgement by incorporating marginal glosses (ancient footnotes) into the body of the text, or by incorporating similar unintentional corrupting influences. In the 14th century Codex 109, for example, an incompetent scribe has apparently copied continuous lines of text from a manuscript that listed the genealogy of Jesus (Luke 3:23-38) in two columns. The resulting genealogy has all the family relations scrambled, even listing God as the son of Aram.
The six intentional errors are only 5% and represent intentional activity on the part of the scribes:
1. Revising Grammar and Spelling. In an attempt to standardize grammar or spelling, scribes corrected what they perceived as orthographic or grammatical errors in the text they were copyin. For example, John originally put the nominative case after the preposition "apo" in Revelation 1:4. Later scribes have inserted a genitive form.
2. Harmonizing Similar Passage. Scribes had a tendency to harmonize parallel passages and introduce uniformity to stylized expressions. For example, details from the same incident in multiple gospels might be included when copying any one gospel. Even today, Greek students often unintentionally insert "Lord" or "Christ" when translating a passage with the name "Jesus." They are not intending to promote a "higher" Christology, they are simply conforming their speech to a stylized reference to the Saviour. Ancient scribes behaved in a similar way.
3. Eliminating Apparent Discrepancies and Difficulties. Scribes sometimes "fixed" what they perceived as a problem in the text. Origen perceived a geographical difficult at John 1:28, he changed "Bethany" to "Betharaba."
4. Conflating the text. Sometimes when a scribe knew of variant readings in the manuscript base from which he was copying, he woujld simply include both variants within his copy, conflating them. For example, in Acts 20:28, some early manuscripts read "the church of God,"while others read "the church of the Lord." Later manuscripts conflate these reading as "the church of the Lord and God."
5. Adapting Different Liturgical Tradiitons. In a few isolated places, it is possible that church liturgy (ie stylized prayers or praises) influenced some text additions or wording changes. For example in Matt 6:13 "For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen." Sorry to say that the Catholics got that one right.
6. Making Theoloigcal or Doctrinal Changes. Some scribes made theoloigcal or doctinical changes, either omitting something they saw as wrong, or making clarifying additions. For example, in Matt 24:36, some manuscripts omit the references to the Son's ignorance of the day of his return - a passage that is obviously difficult to understand.
As for the KJV, it relied heavily on Erasmus translation. He only had 7 manuscripts, most of poor quality. Today, we have more than 5800 ancient manuscripts or partial manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. They Byzantine is recognized by scholars as a later conflation of text traditions and not as reliable as eclectic scholarly additions produced by text critics. Although there is a tiny minority of scholars who insist that only one "family" of ancient manuscripts preserves the text, they are aligned mostly with the KJV Only movement. Thus they start with the KJV and then find manuscripts to support the KJV, instead, of critically examine all the manuscripts from all 4 families (Alexandrian, Caesarean, Western and Byzantine.)*
I'm not saying someone can't get saved reading the KJV or grow as a Christian. Just that there are so many mistakes because the translation committee had to rely on much later manuscripts which were rife with copyist errors, as I posted above.
There is much more, but this post is already too long.
*Kostenberger, Merkle and Plummer. Going Deeper with New Testament Greek: An Intermediate Study f the Grammar and Syntax of the New Testament, vv 25; 30-31
How do you "walk" in the flesh, or even "act" in the flesh without a spirit????????
You do realize that the flesh is the visible part of our being, and the spirit, that is, the inclination of our heart and mind is the hidden part of our being...and without a spirit, flesh is just a lifeless, unmoving mass...just as without flesh, without a visible vessel, the spirit is invisible and really can't be made manifest without a vessel...
So how exactly do you do anything in the flesh without your heart or your mind dictating the actions of your flesh...
The lusts of the flesh are NOTHING if the spirit does NOT take part in that "lust"...
Otherwise it is hidden from men...but well, not really hidden from GOD...
When one is REBORN of CHRIST'S SPIRIT they are required to bring all their works into the LIGHT to see what is wrought in GOD.
GOD does discipline HIS CHILDREN when their actions, lusts driven by their flesh, driven by their own inclinations of their own will (that is the heart and the mind) are NOT in line to HIS SPIRIT...
You do realize that the flesh is the visible part of our being, and the spirit, that is, the inclination of our heart and mind is the hidden part of our being...and without a spirit, flesh is just a lifeless, unmoving mass...just as without flesh, without a visible vessel, the spirit is invisible and really can't be made manifest without a vessel...
So how exactly do you do anything in the flesh without your heart or your mind dictating the actions of your flesh...
The lusts of the flesh are NOTHING if the spirit does NOT take part in that "lust"...
Otherwise it is hidden from men...but well, not really hidden from GOD...
When one is REBORN of CHRIST'S SPIRIT they are required to bring all their works into the LIGHT to see what is wrought in GOD.
GOD does discipline HIS CHILDREN when their actions, lusts driven by their flesh, driven by their own inclinations of their own will (that is the heart and the mind) are NOT in line to HIS SPIRIT...
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When we talk about knowing them by their 'fruit"...
What does this mean?
Or that the WORD of GOD is a double-edged sword?
and that GOD will lay bare the hidden agenda of the heart and the mind of all men...
We still have our own spirit, even as we are born of HIS SPIRIT...
so when we are called to "discipline" the flesh...it is still what St. John of the Cross came to understand..it is the lower senses, that still of all the senses and resting in HIM and HIM alone...not our will, but HIS WILL be done...in all things, trusting that HE is in SOVEREIGN control and all things are under HIS SOVEREIGN control...
We "walk" by FAITH(and that will be made manifest) and not by sight...
...and finally, the RIGHTEOUS shall live by FAITH...
And the RIGHTEOUS don't want to be found outside of HIM professing a false sense of their own self-righteousness apart from HIS COVERING...HIS ROYAL ROBES of RIGHTEOUSNESS...
What does this mean?
Or that the WORD of GOD is a double-edged sword?
and that GOD will lay bare the hidden agenda of the heart and the mind of all men...
We still have our own spirit, even as we are born of HIS SPIRIT...
so when we are called to "discipline" the flesh...it is still what St. John of the Cross came to understand..it is the lower senses, that still of all the senses and resting in HIM and HIM alone...not our will, but HIS WILL be done...in all things, trusting that HE is in SOVEREIGN control and all things are under HIS SOVEREIGN control...
We "walk" by FAITH(and that will be made manifest) and not by sight...
...and finally, the RIGHTEOUS shall live by FAITH...
And the RIGHTEOUS don't want to be found outside of HIM professing a false sense of their own self-righteousness apart from HIS COVERING...HIS ROYAL ROBES of RIGHTEOUSNESS...
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