Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.

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rcshaw

Guest
#62
#62
Just in case you didn't know, Jesus, in John 17:15 is praying specifically for his Apostles, not the Church. The Church was not created until the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentacost. John 17 is Jesus' prayer for Himself (vv1-8), for his Apostles (vv9-19), and for everyone who is saved from their teaching and preaching (vv20-26). Timelines are important when studying Scripture.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#63
Apr 23, 2009
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#63
rcshaw said:
Just in case you didn't know, Jesus, in John 17:15 is praying specifically for his Apostles, not the Church. The Church was not created until the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentacost. John 17 is Jesus' prayer for Himself (vv1-8), for his Apostles (vv9-19), and for everyone who is saved from their teaching and preaching (vv20-26). Timelines are important when studying Scripture.
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This is abopsulutely incorrect.
John 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus specifically states in verase 20 that He is not praying for the Apostles onl;y but for all that would come to faith through their words. That includes you and me. Jesus does not want us taken from this earth and can keep us from evil or temptation, or the hour of temptation without removing us from the earth.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#64
Apr 23, 2009
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#64
rcshaw said:
Timelines are important when studying Scripture.
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I totally agre such as this timeline, such as in Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus returns immediately after the Tribulation, according to His own words.
 
R

rcshaw

Guest
#65
#65
Verse 20 is specifically beginning a new part of His prayer. Note that verse 19 ends with a period, while verse 20 ends with a semi-colon. Verse 19 ends a thought while verse 20 starts a new thought and continues it into verse 21 and following. We who are saved by hearing the words recorded by the Apostles and the other Godly men that God chose for this wonderful work called the Bible are being spoken of beginning in verse 20. Jesus begins praying for Himself in vers 1. He then begins praying for His Apostles in verse 9. He then begins praying for everyone who is going to be saved by hearing and reading the words of the Apostles in verse 20. You can only stretch your argument so far. Also notice what Jesus prays for us who believe in Him through the Apostles' words, "That they all may be one;..." Kinda puts the whammy on all this arguing and name callilng, doesn't it.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#66
Apr 23, 2009
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#66
rcshaw said:
Verse 20 is specifically beginning a new part of His prayer. Note that verse 19 ends with a period, while verse 20 ends with a semi-colon. Verse 19 ends a thought while verse 20 starts a new thought and continues it into verse 21 and following. We who are saved by hearing the words recorded by the Apostles and the other Godly men that God chose for this wonderful work called the Bible are being spoken of beginning in verse 20. Jesus begins praying for Himself in vers 1. He then begins praying for His Apostles in verse 9. He then begins praying for everyone who is going to be saved by hearing and reading the words of the Apostles in verse 20. You can only stretch your argument so far. Also notice what Jesus prays for us who believe in Him through the Apostles' words, "That they all may be one;..." Kinda puts the whammy on all this arguing and name callilng, doesn't it.
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For you to believe that Jesus was not praying for the church until verse 20 because He didn;t clerify that point until verse 20, is the highest degree of selective interpretation. Just believe it as it is written. Take your own advice and stop choosing doctrinal teaching over scripture.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#67
Apr 23, 2009
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#67
rcshaw said:
Also notice what Jesus prays for us who believe in Him through the Apostles' words, "That they all may be one;..." Kinda puts the whammy on all this arguing and name callilng, doesn't it.
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I would love for the church to be one in mind, heart and belief. However that does not mean I should accept sin within the church or bow to false teaching. God had commanded me to share the truth of the post truib rapture and I will. You can accept it or reject it. I have obeyed God either way.
 
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rcshaw

Guest
#68
#68
By the way, Matthew 24:29-31 talks about Jesus returning to gather His elect. Who are "His elect" at this point in time? The only elect I know of at that time, when Jesus said these things, are the Jews. There was no Church then. Isaiah 45:4 seems to mention "...Israel mine elect". If, perhaps Christ comes for His Church (also called His Bride, The Body, Flock,etc.) before the Tribulaiton, then it would seem logical that He would come back for "His elect" at a later time, perhaps after the purging and cleansing of the tribulation that causes "His elect", i.e. Isreal, to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their messiah.
 
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rcshaw

Guest
#69
#69
If you are so inclined, please read 2 Thess 2:1-12. This passage refers to two things that are holding the evil one back from his goal of taking over the world. Those two things are mentioned in v. 6 and v. 7. Verse 6 refers to "what" and verse 7 refers to "he". The "what" that is currently holding Satan back is the Church. The "he" who is currently holding Satan back is the Holy Spirit that indwells the believers who make up the Church. God will not permit the anti-christ, the "man of sin" mentioned in v.4, to be released upon the earth until the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the way. Then, and only then, will all hell be let loose on this earth. God will pour out His wrath on this planet as never before with the purpose of awakening His elect, Israel, to the truth of just who Jesus Christ really is.
 
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rcshaw

Guest
#70
#70
I am amazed that you call my clear reading of the Scriptures, "selective interpretation" and your ignoring puncuation as correct interpretaiton. I can see that I am wasting my time. As I stated before, I'll be praying for you. You should step back a minute and examine yourself. Your belief system is so skewed that you refuse to see the truth when it is evidently set forth. Paul warned Timothy about times like these. Please open your spiritual eyes and see what God's Word says.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#71
Apr 23, 2009
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#71
rcshaw said:
By the way, Matthew 24:29-31 talks about Jesus returning to gather His elect. Who are "His elect" at this point in time? The only elect I know of at that time, when Jesus said these things, are the Jews. There was no Church then. Isaiah 45:4 seems to mention "...Israel mine elect". If, perhaps Christ comes for His Church (also called His Bride, The Body, Flock,etc.) before the Tribulaiton, then it would seem logical that He would come back for "His elect" at a later time, perhaps after the purging and cleansing of the tribulation that causes "His elect", i.e. Isreal, to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their messiah.
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Once again this is a case of selective interpretation, and chosing doctrine over truth. Jesus was prophecying of His return and who would be His elect when He return which is after pentecost therefore would include ''church age'' believers. Further more He is only returning once more hince the ''2nd coming'' there is no mention anywhere in Scripture of a third coming of a partial coming or a first ''phase'' of the 2nd coming these are all man made beliefs needed to supprot their false teaching. The truth of scri9pture is that Christ xcame once to take the punishment for sin, and is returning once without sin to Gather those who have trusted in Him, and He tells us out of His own mouth that this 2nd coming is immediately after the Tribulation.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#72
Apr 23, 2009
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#72
rcshaw said:
If you are so inclined, please read 2 Thess 2:1-12. This passage refers to two things that are holding the evil one back from his goal of taking over the world. Those two things are mentioned in v. 6 and v. 7. Verse 6 refers to "what" and verse 7 refers to "he". The "what" that is currently holding Satan back is the Church. The "he" who is currently holding Satan back is the Holy Spirit that indwells the believers who make up the Church. God will not permit the anti-christ, the "man of sin" mentioned in v.4, to be released upon the earth until the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the way. Then, and only then, will all hell be let loose on this earth. God will pour out His wrath on this planet as never before with the purpose of awakening His elect, Israel, to the truth of just who Jesus Christ really is.
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The Bible does not say who the restrianer is, but it could not possibly be the Holy Spirit because God tells us that He will never leave us nor forsake us. According to you there will come a point when the Holy Spirit will forsake this word and allow satan to have His way. This is contradictory to scripture.
 
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starfield

Senior Member
#73
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
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#73
rcshaw said:
If you are so inclined, please read 2 Thess 2:1-12. This passage refers to two things that are holding the evil one back from his goal of taking over the world. Those two things are mentioned in v. 6 and v. 7. Verse 6 refers to "what" and verse 7 refers to "he". The "what" that is currently holding Satan back is the Church. The "he" who is currently holding Satan back is the Holy Spirit that indwells the believers who make up the Church. God will not permit the anti-christ, the "man of sin" mentioned in v.4, to be released upon the earth until the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the way. Then, and only then, will all hell be let loose on this earth. God will pour out His wrath on this planet as never before with the purpose of awakening His elect, Israel, to the truth of just who Jesus Christ really is.
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I agree. The Holy Spirit is the restrainer dwelling in believers.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#74
Apr 23, 2009
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#74
rcshaw said:
I am amazed that you call my clear reading of the Scriptures, "selective interpretation" and your ignoring puncuation as correct interpretaiton. I can see that I am wasting my time. As I stated before, I'll be praying for you. You should step back a minute and examine yourself. Your belief system is so skewed that you refuse to see the truth when it is evidently set forth. Paul warned Timothy about times like these. Please open your spiritual eyes and see what God's Word says.
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Yes paul did warn us not to be deceived.
2nd Thess 2:3 Lat no man deceive you by any means for that day (the day of the 2nd coming and gathering of the church via verse 1) will not come until the falling away (apostacy of the church) come first and the man of sin ( the ani christ) be revealed the son of perdition.
I will not aloow you or anyone else to deceive me to believe that wwe are gathered before the anti christ is revealed.

and in 2nd Timothy
2nd timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

This descibes the pretib belief and believer perfectly. The refuse the truth of scripture because it is more comfortable for them to hold to the false security of the pretrib rapture
 
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watchmen

Banned
#75
Apr 23, 2009
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#75
starfield said:
I agree. The Holy Spirit is the restrainer dwelling in believers.
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And you too are wrong. It is biblivcally impossible for this to be so via Hebrews 13:5. This is another of many false doctrines taught by pretribbers.

You ever told a lire then had to tell another lie to cover oup the first one, and another one and another one ect..... That is what pretribbers have done they have false doctrine after false doctrine to support their false teaching of a pretrib doctrine.
 
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rcshaw

Guest
#76
#76
Good by. I've got better things to do than to argue with a name calling apostate (one who turns from the truth).
 
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watchmen

Banned
#77
Apr 23, 2009
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#77
rcshaw said:
Good by. I've got better things to do than to argue with a name calling apostate (one who turns from the truth).
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Look in the mirror.

By the way thanks for the blessing. :)
 
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starfield

Senior Member
#78
Jun 13, 2009
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#78
watchmen said:
The Bible does not say who the restrianer is, but it could not possibly be the Holy Spirit because God tells us that He will never leave us nor forsake us. According to you there will come a point when the Holy Spirit will forsake this word and allow satan to have His way. This is contradictory to scripture.
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watchmen said:
And you too are wrong. It is biblivcally impossible for this to be so via Hebrews 13:5. This is another of many false doctrines taught by pretribbers.

You ever told a lire then had to tell another lie to cover oup the first one, and another one and another one ect..... That is what pretribbers have done they have false doctrine after false doctrine to support their false teaching of a pretrib doctrine.
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Yes God will never leave nor forsake the believers but during the tribulation He will forsake those that refused His salvation plan (non-believers). Satan's power will not be restrained during the tribulation because the Holy Spirit will not be present.

Revelation 12:12 - Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Also, Hebrews 13:5 simply means that God is sufficient for all our needs so we should be content. It does not support post-trib view.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#79
Apr 23, 2009
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#79
starfield said:
Yes God will never leave nor forsake the believers but during the tribulation He will forsake those that refused His salvation plan (non-believers). Satan's power will not be restrained during the tribulation because the Holy Spirit will not be present.

Revelation 12:12 - Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Also, Hebrews 13:5 simply means that God is sufficient for all our needs so we should be content. It does not support post-trib view.
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There are believers during the Tribulation ragardless if you believe in the pretrib rapture or not you realize this. Has God forsaking these believers? According to your doctrine He has, according to scripture He wouldn't
 
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starfield

Senior Member
#80
Jun 13, 2009
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#80
watchmen said:
There are believers during the Tribulation ragardless if you believe in the pretrib rapture or not you realize this. Has God forsaking these believers? According to your doctrine He has, according to scripture He wouldn't
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True, there will be Tribulation saints but not the church. The tribulation saints will be those who come to Christ after the rapture. But the Holy Spirit will not be present at that time because the Church will be raptured.



Since you don't believe the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, who else or what could it be?
 
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